achillies tendon problems

Discussion in 'General Fitness' started by Robwjm2, Sep 22, 2003.

  1. Robwjm2

    Robwjm2 Guest

    I have recently tried to return to running after 8 years, and have already developed achellies
    tendon problems. I was only running 1.5 miles every other day. I have since stopped running and have
    been doing some strengthining exersizes but its been 6 weeks and they are still sore. I had been
    taking cipro prior to this which is supposed to sometimes cause this problem. But my question is
    what should I do now? what is the best way to treat this problem so I can start running again.

    Robert
     
    Tags:


  2. Bill Clinton

    Bill Clinton Guest

    On 23 Sep 2003 01:48:01 GMT, [email protected] (Robwjm2) wrote:

    >I have recently tried to return to running after 8 years, and have already developed achellies
    >tendon problems. I was only running 1.5 miles every other day. I have since stopped running and
    >have been doing some strengthining exersizes but its been 6 weeks and they are still sore. I had
    >been taking cipro prior to this which is supposed to sometimes cause this problem. But my question
    >is what should I do now? what is the best way to treat this problem so I can start running again.
    >
    >
    >Robert

    Start with new shoes. It's a starting point. Do not buy nikes either.
     
  3. Bill Clinton

    Bill Clinton Guest

    On 23 Sep 2003 01:48:01 GMT, [email protected] (Robwjm2) wrote:

    >I have recently tried to return to running after 8 years, and have already developed achellies
    >tendon problems. I was only running 1.5 miles every other day. I have since stopped running and
    >have been doing some strengthining exersizes but its been 6 weeks and they are still sore. I had
    >been taking cipro prior to this which is supposed to sometimes cause this problem. But my question
    >is what should I do now? what is the best way to treat this problem so I can start running again.
    >
    >
    >Robert

    Get Asics, NB, Brooks, Walmarts "Joes Specials", but do NOT buy nikes.
     
  4. In article <[email protected]>, Robwjm2 <[email protected]> wrote:

    > I have recently tried to return to running after 8 years, and have already developed achellies
    > tendon problems. I was only running 1.5 miles every other day. I have since stopped running and
    > have been doing some strengthining exersizes but its been 6 weeks and they are still sore. I had
    > been taking cipro prior to this which is supposed to sometimes cause this problem. But my question
    > is what should I do now? what is the best way to treat this problem so I can start running again.
    >
    >
    > Robert

    Robert,

    Check out http://www.mindfulness.com/of 1.asp

    In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer - rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon
    Clinic, est. 1975

    Mindful Running: http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
     
  5. Every one is different and we have to find our own answers so pay attention to all the serious
    suggestions. Do read Ozzie's suggestion.

    The shoe issue is real, but sometime over emphised, a good running shoe (even Nike has some at
    least marginal shoes) can be important. Shoes have as shelf life and if you have shoes that are
    years old, likely they are not doing much for you. If possible go to a real running store, not a
    shoe store or sports super store and have them help you find a shoe that is right for you. They
    come in different types for different running and foot types.

    What bothers me is the fact that few people develop the problem at the level of running you are
    doing. Is there something else that might be involved? This is a situation where, in my opinion,
    you may want to visit the doctor (podiatrist) to rule out some other problems.

    --
    Joseph E. Meehan

    26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

    "Robwjm2" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > I have recently tried to return to running after 8 years, and have already developed achellies
    > tendon problems. I was only running 1.5 miles every
    other
    > day. I have since stopped running and have been doing some strengthining exersizes but its been 6
    > weeks and they are still sore. I had been taking
    cipro
    > prior to this which is supposed to sometimes cause this problem. But my question is what should I
    > do now? what is the best way to treat this
    problem so
    > I can start running again.
    >
    >
    > Robert
     
  6. Bill Clinton

    Bill Clinton Guest

    On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:40:33 GMT, "Joseph Meehan" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > What bothers me is the fact that few people develop the problem at the level of running you are
    > doing.

    That's why I suggested shoes. At that mileage something is RADICALLY wrong, and it must be the wrong
    shoe. You have thebillrodgers word on that. Ignore the noise, listen to my boyz.
     
  7. In article <[email protected]>, yes it's really me
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:40:33 GMT, "Joseph Meehan" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > What bothers me is the fact that few people develop the problem at the level of running you
    > > are doing.
    >
    > That's why I suggested shoes. At that mileage something is RADICALLY wrong, and it must be the
    > wrong shoe. You have thebillrodgers word on that. Ignore the noise, listen to my boyz.

    Shoes are just one piece of the running injury puzzle.

    Something may not be radically wrong. Like the final straw that broke the camels back, this may be
    the final step in some small idiosyncracy that has finally caught up with the runner.

    In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer - rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon
    Clinic, est. 1975

    Mindful Running: http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
     
  8. Robwjm2

    Robwjm2 Guest

    >Start with new shoes. It's a starting point. Do not buy nikes either.
    >

    Thanks that was what I was using Robert
     
  9. Robwjm2

    Robwjm2 Guest

    thanks to everyone who replyed. I think the nikes may be the big problem or the one that is easiest
    to correct.Why are they so bad though? and secondly how long does it take to recover from this
    problem. should I wait untill it has completley healed before running or exersizing
     
  10. Tim Downie

    Tim Downie Guest

    Joseph Meehan wrote:

    <snip>

    > What bothers me is the fact that few people develop the problem
    > at the level of running you are doing. Is there something else that
    > might be involved? This is a situation where, in my opinion, you may
    > want to visit the doctor (podiatrist) to rule out some other problems.

    I think you may have missed the bit about Cipro (Ciprofloxacin). Bizarre though it may sound, there
    is a link between this antibiotic use and achilles tendon problems.

    The following bit from http://www.prostatitis.org/ciproeffects.html is worth reading.

    WARNINGS: All quinolones cause erosion of cartilage in weight-bearing joints. They may cause
    convulsions, increases intracranial pressure, toxic
    psychosis, CNS stimulation (i.e.nervousness, lightheadedness, confusion, hallucinations).Should not
    be used in anyone with seizure disorders, or cerebral arteriosclerosis. There have been deaths
    due to anaphylactic shock, and cardiovascular collapse. Also occurring are tingling, itching,
    facial swelling, and difficult breathing.

    DISCONTINUE at the first sign of a rash or any hypersensitivity.
    ppseudomembranous colitis has been reported from nearly all antibacterial agents (mild to
    life-threatening), and anyone taking Cipro having diarrhea should immediately check with his
    prescribing physician. Antibacterial drugs may kill off normal intestinal flora, resulting in an
    overgrowth of Clostridia. It produces a toxin that is a primary cause of "antibiotic-associated-
    colitis". Achilles and other tendon ruptures requiring surgical repair, resulting in prolonged
    disability can occur from quinolone use. Discontinue Cipro, and consult your physician, if you
    experience pain, inflammation, or tendon rupture.

    Scary stuff if you're a runner.

    HTH.

    Tim

    --
    Remove the obvious to reply by email.
     
  11. Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 22:37:39 -0700 From: [email protected] (Ozzie Gontang) Newsgroups:
    rec.running Subject: Forefoot Landing Dialogue 1966-2001 Part 1 Was: What's a fore foot stride?

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Arif) wrote:

    > I've heard that if you adopt a forefoot stride it shall help heal the pain in your knees (if any)?
    >
    > Is there any other type of strides?
    >
    > Thanks....Keep miling!
    >
    > Arif A Dubai Road Runner

    Arif,

    Here are some posts from back in May of 1996 to the present talking about forefoot stride. Hope that
    it gives you some food for thought. It was the beginning of a lengthy and I believe profitable
    dialogue that has lasted to the present time.

    I still am advocating a ball/heel landing as one would experience by marching in place lifting the
    knees up and down.

    Ozzie

    ORIGINAL POST 17 Apr 1996

    From: [email protected] (Ozzie Gontang) Newsgroups: rec.running Subject: The human
    animal is a forefoot striker Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 23:24:20 -0800 Organization: Int'l Association
    of Marathoners

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Edward Rankin) wrote:
    > I am a runner who runs with a forefoot strike and I have a problem with trying to find a
    > shoe that has cushioning on the forefoot area. The only one that I am vaguely familiar
    > with is Asics makes a TR model. Other than that I am in the dark. I would appreiciate any
    > information that anyone can provide.
    ---snip of nice typographic running form.
    > * Edward Walker Rankin
    ---snip of great Thoreau quote. George would have liked it..and probably
    did. *

    (Assumptions upon which O. Gontang biases( correct spelling) his thoughts

    If you run lightly over the ground you need neither forefoot nor heel cushion. The running human
    animal is a forefoot striker (ball/heel). To heel strike (landing on the back of the heel of the
    shoe) is to overstride. To overstride is to decelerate with every overstriding step. Running is a
    practice, like yoga, sitting meditation, or walking. All practices (from the Greek meaning "to do")
    form habits by doing. The brain is a secondary organ. Balance is a matter of strength. Strength is a
    matter of balance. Running can be done gracefully or clumsily. Go for the grace! You are not your
    thoughts. If none, some or all the above is true; what is it true of?

    Runner's Mind, Beginner's Mind Thoughts and Reflections:

    Watching Bud Greenspan's 100 Years of the Olympics, I was impressed by the running form of
    early world class runners. In the older film clips you see that the shoes of the runner had no
    cushion at all.

    If you can get a copy of Guide to Distance Running, c. 1971 put out by Runner's World when it was
    run by Bob Anderson and Joe Henderson, on page 172 you will see a picture of 5 runners racing on a
    track. "Each was a world record holder or international champion over various distances." You will
    notice that 3 of the 5 including Ron Hill are running bare foot. Also on page 175, you see a picture
    of Michel Jazy of France in a race also running barefoot. You may have seen pictures of Zola Budd
    running races in South Africa...barefoot.

    In my mind's eye and based (read biased) on my observations, readings, and coaching and experience
    over a 22 year stint, the best cushion for the human animal is good running form and style. This is
    one voice in the middle of a multi-billion dollar competitive shoe business. I appreciate the
    strides made by technology in the areas of running shoes. I also think that this same technology of
    better and better heel cushioning can diminish the thinking power of the thinking body. That is, we
    treat the injuries with shoes that will prevent the injuries. My questioning is, do they prevent
    injuries. Yes, good running shoes do prevent injuries. Yes, good running shoes do not prevent
    injuries. Thinking bodies prevent injuries.

    Listening well and using the thinking of the thinking body prevents injuries. Listening well to the
    moving and thinking body prevents injuries, be you running in the world's best shoe or barefoot.
    True, there will always be world class runners whose style is theirs and theirs alone. In spite of
    their idiocyncratic style they will dominate. I'm looking at it from the point of view where George
    Sheehan said first and foremost be a good athlete, a good animal....then he followed with the poet,
    artist, philosopher and saint. And watching beautiful running is poetry in motion.

    Abebe Bikila running barefoot through the streets of Rome in the 1960 Olympic Marathon. Barefoot he
    set both the Olympic and World Marathon record. 2:15:16.2. He came back to win again in '64 Olympics
    in 2:12:11 this time with shoes .

    If you're interested in dialoguing about running form without all the cushion, e-mail me or let the
    thread begin.

    Ran about 5 miles this evening, in the setting sun. Part of my course, which is literally in my
    backyard is Morley Field, the annual sight of the Foot Locker/Kinney National Cross Country
    Championships. Played for 5 miles running in running(?) sandals. Experimenting with running form and
    style a la Tarahamara.

    RESPONSE 0

    From: [email protected] (-Mayo,H.H.) Newsgroups: rec.running Subject: Re: forefoot strikers Date:
    17 Apr 1996 16:55:56 GMT Organization: AT&T

    >Watching Bud Greenspan's 100 Years of the Olympics, I was impressed by the running form of early
    >world class runners. In the older film clips you see that the shoes had no cushion at all.

    >coaching and experience over a 22 year stint, the best cushion for the human animal is good running
    >form and style. This is one voice in the middle of a multi-billion dollar competitive shoe
    >business. I appreciate the strides made by technology in the areas of running shoes. I think that
    >the technology takes away the thinking power of the thinking body. That is, we treat the injuries
    >with shoes that will prevent the injuries. My

    I agree with you on many points, but technology doesn't happen without demand for it. Many of us who
    are not blessed with efficient running styles are caught somewhere in the middle. 75 years ago, the
    champion runners all probably were naturally light in their stride, those others who were not,
    didn't compete. This shut out many who could have been champions, but would have destroyed their
    feet in those old leather and cork shoes. I once heard Red Grange, at U of I, talk about the
    brutality of football in the old days, and how many famous modern players would have wound up dead
    or maimed in the gear they had to wear. This wasn't nostalgia, he was glad that modern protective
    gear had tamed the sport. He mentioned that it was not unusual for a team to go through the first,
    second, and sometimes part of the third string during a game because of injuries.

    I know that my form stinks, but there is not much I could do about it short of expensive gait
    analysis, or personal training. Most of us don't have access to those. Personal form is one of the
    things most difficult for everyone to work on. You can't observe yourself, and I have seen very
    little written on any types of exercises, or therapy that will improve running style. If there is,
    pass it along.

    Larry Mayo

    9/23/03 My response to Larry would still be to question his statement in his last paragraph.. It's
    not a matter of money and expensive gait analysis and personal training. It's more a matter of
    practicing a new dance step. You play with it until you get it down. Many people never take the
    time to realize that they can move through space gracefully.

    What I promised myself and my wife was that I wanted our daughters to learn to be able to move their
    bodies in space (gymnastics did that) and to have a good education. I am pleased that they have done
    both well.

    Actually I've been working on getting my booklet on running form and style finished. My friend,
    Richard Rogo, redid all the cartoon we used almost 20 years ago so that they depict proper
    alignment, form, and style.

    Ozzie

    RESPONSE 00

    From: [email protected] (Edward Rankin) Newsgroups: rec.running Subject: forefoot strikers:
    response to Ozzie Gontang Date: 23 Apr 1996 23:56:51 GMT Organization: UMR Missouri's Technological
    University

    When you mentioned the quote about the Kenyans it is comes down to just one simple thing and
    that is they are not afraid to sacrifice themselves to the pure challenge that running can
    offer. In way you can equate pleasure is pain and pain is pleasure. They are one and the
    same and I am not refering to some sort of sado machist whatever nonsense. Instead I am
    referring to going to another level. I have noticed that when the Keyans start a race and
    they just go all out and they maintain that mode of racing throughout the entire race. It
    comes to a matter of the mind over the body. When one can stop thinking about the drudgering
    of running and instead focus on the intensity of the run itself you body will respond with
    you. You become less mechanical and more in flow with the run. I am a runner who enjoys the
    intensity of the run and I know when the conditions are right and you begin to enjoy the run
    for itself you seem to float or rather a better term would be that you stop seeing your self
    as something in the enviroment and instead you become a part of the environment. What I mean
    is that you will become more relaxed and your body will adjust and be able to take what ever
    it may encounter. You stop fighting what the body is trying to do "naturally". If you try to
    conform yourself to some type of running form then that is what causes the problems. Just
    relax and let the body do what it will. DON'T FORCE FORM ONTO SOMETHING THAT IS IN EVER
    PERPETUAL CHANGE!!!!

    o o o o o o o o </\_ </< </\_ </< </\_ </< </\_ </< -\/\ -\/\ -\/\ -\/\ -\/\ -\/\ -\/\ -\/\
    /_ /_ /_ /_ /_ /_ /_ /_
    ************************************************************************
    * * The fate of the country...does not depend on *
    * Edward Walker Rankin* what kind of paper you drop into the ballot- *
    * [email protected] * box once a year, but on what kind of man you *
    * * drop from your chamber into the street every *
    * * morning. -Thoreau *
    ************************************************************************

    RESPONSE 1

    From: [email protected] (Mike Tennent) Newsgroups: rec.running Subject: Re: The human animal is a
    forefoot striker Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 16:17:51 GMT

    [email protected] (Peter James) wrote:
    >
    >Ozzie, although I'll give you your due respect for maintaining the FAQ and giving detailed
    >responses to many questions, I think that your theory that human beings are natural forefoot
    >strikers is a little wacky. It's just not what I see out there in runners. I've been waiting for
    >others, more senior contributors to this newsgroup to challenge this, but the most I've seen is
    >very muted reference to not changing a natural running style.
    >

    And that's about all you'll get from me towards Ozzie. I missed the beginning of this thread, so I
    can't speak with authority on his post.

    >What's going on? Do you all love/respect Ozzie so much that you won't criticize one of his pet
    >theories? (And I do admire the effort that you put into this group , Ozzie).
    >

    It's called respect and appreciation for the fact that Ozzie never flames ANYBODY and provides lots
    of good information. And he's an "old hat." On newsgroups that counts for a lot. Some may disagree,
    but that's life.

    BTW, in this case, I don't have any proof that he's not right. I know I'm not a fore-foot striker,
    but then again I'm not very fast except for sprints - and then I guess I'm fore-footing it.

    You raise some good points in your post and I agree with you on several of them. I don't think Ozzie
    is offended by disagreement about his theory and will respond in due time.

    Mike Tennent WebRunner Running Page -- Southeast USA Race Calendar FTP Race Apps, FAQ, Download The
    WebRunner Racing Utilities http://www.webrunner.com/webrun/running/running.html

    RESPONSE 2

    From: Terri Watson <[email protected]> Newsgroups: rec.running Subject: Re: Human
    animal/Forefoot Striker:Response & Observations Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 12:17:03 -0700 Organization:
    U Washington, Computer Science and Engineering

    Ray Charbonneau wrote:

    > The force with which your foot strikes the ground results in less pressure on any single spot if
    > that force is spread across a wider area. So idealy, to minimize stress on any part of your foot,
    > you want to land evenly on the whole foot.

    I don't think this reasoning and conclusion are quite accurate. (Although I'm a novice runner, I did
    compete nationally in Sports Acrobatics back in the 80's.) When you want to stop the downward flight
    of something - say a human body - you can decrease the translated shock of impact by decelerating
    that body smoothly before it stops completely.

    For instance, in acro, you *reach* for the hands of the person that you are catching (they will end
    up in a handstand on your hands), and then resist their downward flight in a progresively harder
    fashion. By the time they stop (as your hands reach you shoulders) there is not much shock for their
    body to have to cope with. Since they are in a handstand, this is necessary - they are *not*
    supposed to bend (elbows, hips, shoulders, etc.) to absorb any shock - points off if they do.

    If the forefoot were to hit the ground, with *no* corresponding flexion (sinking) of the ankle, (and
    all other flexion being the same, eg knees), then you would absorb more impact in the forefoot than
    if you landed flat-footed. But I have never seen *anyone* not absorb some of the impact with their
    calves when forefoot striking.

    My tumbling landings were always a bit rougher than they should have been, precisely because I
    tended to land flat-footed, leaving my knees and hips to absorb much of the shock, with no help from
    my calves.

    Now in running, I'm a heelstriker, with no plans to change - at least until my body gets more
    experienced with the running motion. But you certainly *could* run more "lightly" by allowing your
    claves to absorb some of the impact of running - *IF* changing your footstrike does not cause your
    running stride to be more bouncy and offset the benefits. I also have no idea what other changes
    occur by forefoot striking when it is not what just happens as you run. Someone well versed in gait
    analysis would have to say how one *safely* goes about changing a stride of habit. Perhaps Ozzie? I
    know my sports doctor doesn't like people to artificially change the way they walk - he said that it
    can cause more injuries than it prevents. He prefers to use an orthotic that will guide their
    natural or habituated motion into the new desireable motion. It could be that if you could change
    your walk to exactly what he wanted, without relying on support, that would be ideal, but that most
    people can't or won't. I don't know his reasoning for certain. (In my case this wasn't a case of
    getting special inserts - just getting a shoe that was more supportive for over-pronators - so no
    profit motive on his part.)

    .Terri

    RESPONSE 3

    From: [email protected] (Peter James) Newsgroups: rec.running Subject: Re: Human
    animal/Forefoot Striker:Response & Observations Date: 5 May 1996 06:35:34 GMT Organization:
    Loyalist College

    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected] says...
    >
    >Peter thanks for the opportunity to continue the dialogue of forefoot striking.

    You're welcome. This topic is of interest to me too for two reasons: how running form can help me
    run faster and avoid injury.

    As I mentioned before, if you march in place, you will notice
    >that you land ball/heel. What I am saying is not a *theory* but an observation. March in place and
    >land on the heel first and see that it is not as natural.

    Agreed. But I don't see how marching in place relates to running.

    >How the general runner became convinced that long distance runners land heel first is a premise on
    >which I do have a theory, but I won't bother you with it at this time.

    I would be interested in hearing this when it is convenient for you.

    >I do believe that the average runner has given away his/her personal power and critical thinking
    >about running to shoe companies and researchers employed by shoe companies about running shoes. We
    >look at pictures of heel strikers. We talk about landing on the heel in running.

    If you mean that shoe companies have somehow influenced me to land heel-ball, I have to disagree. I
    run that way because that's how it happens naturally for me without thinking about it. I was
    astounded to learn, when I bought my first book about running a couple of years ago, that there was
    another form of running foot-strike that distance runners used; shows how much I know about running.

    >Shoes are made with heels to cushion the landing on the heel. Few people talk about landing softly
    >on the surface of the earth with each step. Every morning when I put water in the bathroom sink
    >for Max our cat, when he jumps almost 3 feet off the floor, I have yet to hear him land on the
    >sink counter.

    I do think you have a good point here: that instead of relying on the shoes to solve all our
    problems, it would be a good idea to cultivate a running form of running as lightly as possible.

    >I believe that we are neglecting an atavistic (recurrence in an organism or in any of its parts of
    >a form typical of ancestors more remote than the parents; a throwback; a reversion) look at running
    >and it is before our eyes but we don't see. Abebe Bikila, Olympic Marathon in Rome, 2:15 gold medal
    >winner. Took off his shoes and ran the last 20+ miles barefoot. (thank you Bud Greenspan and Dustin
    >Hoffman in Marathon Man). Guide to Distance Running; World Publications 1971, on page 172; caption
    >reads: " Every man pictured here is-or was-a world record holder or international champion of some
    >sort. From left, Mel Batty (ex-10 mile record man, Bruce Tulloh (trans-American "record holder"),
    >Ron Hill (world records at 10 and 15 miles, 25 kilometers; 2:09:28 marathon) Jim Hogan (European
    >marathon Champ) and Basil Heatley (former marathon record holder). Note all the barefeet. (Oz:3 of
    >the 5 runners are barefoot)

    I agree that the human foot was designed to run barefoot but over soft earth instead of the pavement
    that most of us unfortunately have to cope with.

    >Maybe forefoot striker is not descriptive. But to me, forefoot striker means that the foot lands
    >ball/heel and rolls back to the ball as the center of gravity pulls the body off that foot.
    >
    >We are not meant to land on our heels in running. The Chinese bound women's feet, I believe it was
    >thought to be a thing of beauty?? Are shoe companies binding our feet and creating shoes that are
    >said to prevent injury? Are the palliatives of footwear in reality iatrogenic?

    > Yes, it's true, I suffer from psychosclerosis: hardening of the head.

    I like this phrase; and I know what you mean. I think we all suffer from this to varying degrees.
    You should hear some of my wacky ideas about running.

    >Yes it's also true, I still wear running shoes but have been experimenting with sandal running. My
    >running shoes for the last 5 years have been shoes which you have sent back to Road Runner Sports
    >because they didn't work for you. So I can purchase an $80 to $100 pair of shoes, slightly used,
    >for about $30.

    I envy you on this point. I resent the fact that I have to spend $80US several times a year.

    >I went to one of my books called Applied Kinesiology and the chapter on "Application of Kinesiology
    >to Basic Performance Patterns." It was written in 1970 and I have the 2nd edition copyrighted in
    >1977 by Clayne
    >R. Jensen. He writes:
    >
    >"At a slow running speed, complete foot contact is used. the foot surface contact with each stride
    >goes from the ball of the foot to the heel and back to the ball (restful to calf muscles). As
    >running rate increases, the amount of foot contact becomes less, until finally at full speed only
    >the forward part of the foot contacts the surface." p.291.

    Is the author describing elite athletes?

    >One definition of a theory is "a more or less plausible or scientifically acceptable general
    >principle offered to explain phenomena." And Phenomenon is "Any object known through the senses
    >rather than through thought or intuition."
    >
    >If others hold the theory that the average man lands on his heels while running; I hold to the
    >theory based on my observations that the human animal when running long distances, e.g. the
    >marathon, is meant to run lightly over the surface of the earth and to do so lands ball/heel and
    >back to the ball.
    >
    >Peter used the term "Human beings" where I said in my original post: "The human animal is a
    >forefoot striker." Peter, I know that it's not what you see out there. Please help me understand
    >how my ideas are "wacky" (defined: crazy or screwy). Like I said, I'm slow to understand...

    Well, "wacky" was a poor choice of words and therefore cheerfully withdrawn. It was late at night
    when I posted that message, ...other boring excuses deleted...

    You seem to agree that the average runner is a heel-ball striker. Since running is a natural
    activity, how do you account for the fact that so many of us are doing this wrong according to
    your theory?

    Regards, Peter

    AND 4 YEARS LATER, THE DIALOGUE CONTINUES:

    From: David Forbes <[email protected]> Newsgroups: rec.running Subject: Re: Forefoot striking Date:
    Wed, 29 Nov 2000 11:43:08 -0600

    Krista, I changed from a heel striker to a midsole/forefoot striker by shortening my stride and
    leaning forward. As one does this, one's cadance increases. I followed Ozzie's advice to make
    running the art of falling forward. I thought at first that it would be hard, and that my foot would
    slap down hard. But in reality it doesn't seem to. My midfoot lands, the heel seems to follow a
    fraction of a second later and then I bounce forward. A consequence of changing style has been the
    disappearance of knee pain. Though I must add that for the first several runs, my calves hurt, so
    they were obviously being forced to do something they hadn't done before. I now run faster and feel
    better. When I get tired on long runs 10+ miles I have a tendancy to lose form and to stand more
    erect which forces me to land more heel first. I have to consciously lean forward, keep my eyes on
    the horizon (not the road just ahead of my feet - that's when the hook in the back of the head
    analogy is so good Ozzie), and then I go back to midfoot striking. In normal walking I have a very
    long stride with a pronounced heel strike (to the point that my heels wear down badly on my shoes).
    All the best, Dave

    Mistress Krista wrote:
    >
    > Apologies for perhaps an elementary question, but I'm just a poor ignorant refugee from
    > misc.fitness.weights. :) I didn't see this answered in the FAQ (or maybe I missed it). Can someone
    > explain how the forefoot striking process operates? What is the actual mechanism, and how can one
    > change from being a heel to a forefoot striker?
    >
    > Krista

    Subject: Re: Forefoot striking Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 18:48:28 GMT

    In article <[email protected]>, "Mistress Krista"
    <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Apologies for perhaps an elementary question, but I'm just a poor
    ignorant
    > refugee from misc.fitness.weights. :) I didn't see this answered in
    the FAQ
    > (or maybe I missed it). Can someone explain how the forefoot striking process operates? What is
    > the actual mechanism, and how can one
    change from
    > being a heel to a forefoot striker?
    >
    > Krista

    Having seen several replies which circled the question - here are my thoughts.

    1. Midfoot and/or forefoot landings are physiologically less stressful to joints, etc. than
    heel landing.

    2. It is not too difficult to train yourself to land toe-to-heel or midfoot. It takes time and
    attention, but it's not difficult.

    Try the following;

    a) Find a nice safe stetch of grass. Take off your shoes and run barefoot. Maybe 100 to 200 meters
    at a time. Think about how your feet have landed. Heel first? Probably not. Heel can't take it
    for long. Midfoot? Probably - at a slow, easy pace. Forefoot first? Definately - especially at
    a Fartlek :) pace.

    b) Lesson: The higher the stress (faster pace) the more your BARE feet
    will depend on the forefoot to absorb landingvloads and protect your
    knees, etc. Bare feet are never happy with heel landing when running.

    Why would running form revert to heel landing if the barefoot is happy with mid and forefoot
    landing? Maybe because shoe manufacturers have encouraged heel strike by beefing up heel cushioning.

    Easiest way to learn to get off yer heels and onto mid/forefoot is to increase cadence. The gold
    standard (at least initially to gain awareness) is around 180 steps per minute. That's also 90 steps
    per minute for either foot. Handy for keeping track of cadence.

    Do this: Over a twenty second period, count the number of times the LF (or RT) foot touches down.
    At the beginning of the timed period, count Zero, 1, 2, .... etc. If you count 30 in 20 sec, that's
    180 steps per
    die. If only 25 - then it's 150 steps/min. Once your current cadence is known, concentrate on
    working up to 180 s/min.

    Don't worry about footplant, or anything else until 180 seems natural, not requiring any attention
    to maintain.

    After that start thinking about how your feet are landing. Chances are you'll already be landing
    midfoot, or nearly so.

    Don't forget the barefoot test. Purpose is to remind you what it feels like to run
    mid-to-forefoot,so that when shod, AND at the proper cadence range, replication of the
    motion is easy.

    BTW - also try light weight, low-heeled training and/or racing shoes. Most running shoes are heavy,
    and have the heel too built up. Those designs encouage the WRONG running mechanics! If one runs
    properly, layers of heel cushioning is virtually useless.

    Almost forgot - when one lands forefoot first it is ALWAYS correct to ground the heel immediatelty
    thereafter, otherwise the calf muscle does not have a chance to relax before contracting for pushoff
    from the ground.

    Hope this helps.

    --
    Denny -

    From: [email protected] (Ozzie Gontang) Newsgroups: rec.running Subject: The human
    animal is a forefoot striker Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 22:24:20 -0800 Organization: Int'l Association
    of Marathoners

    In article <[email protected]>, Denny Anderson <[email protected]> wrote:

    snip Krista's original post and Denny's response
    >

    As always Denny, it is nice reading your folklore. I have a big smile on my face at this moment,
    thinking that you and I have been drip irrigating this issue of ball/heel for at least 5 years. It
    is nice to see that an idea that is good "folklore" and observable to the lay eye is slowly making
    its way into the minds of runners who see their running as a lifestyle....for a lifetime. I'm
    referring to reading what Dave and Steve had to say. While it's nice to have them refer to where
    they educated themselves, it's now no longer Denny or Ozzie say as they share their experiences of
    one where they now know mind, body and spirit...and they build their own folklore.

    For me I am appreciative to George Sheehan, Peter Cavanaugh, Tom Bassler, Eileen Waters, Walk Stack,
    Mark Belger, Arthur Lydiard, Percy Cerutty, Brooks Johnson and Bill Bowerman from whom I developed
    the running tall with a forward lean (ever so slight) from the ankles, Dean Brittenham, Liam and
    Abraham Lu who taught me that I can only run fast if I can replicate the movements in coordinated
    slow motion. Ian Jackson and his BreathPlay
    - he was writing for RW 20+ years ago and just sent him a copy of Yoga and The Athlete that he
    wrote. Anyway he's back: http://www.breathplay.com/ I've been playing with his CD. From his stuff
    I took off on my own attempting to make sense of the breathing patterns. Mike Spino, Mike Murphy
    (of Esalen) along with George Leonard introduced me back in the late 70's at the Westabeck Ranch
    up in Valley of the Moon about Zen Walking and Zen Running. Victor Geberin whose been a dear
    friend, and explorer of what the mind/body and spirit can accomplish...and my Rolfer for 20 years.
    So many people to be thankful for their contribution to the folklore of Ozzie.

    I've watched some of the POSE tape on teaching running form and style and Romanov does some
    good practices and drills to assist the runner in chaning their form to a more midfoot or
    ball/heel plant.

    Did you save Miles Lakin's FAQ on Running Form? I should have copied it to my site. If anyone
    else reads this who has copied Miles site, let me know. I'l like to preserve what he did for
    others to view.

    I close reemphasizing your comment about "when one lands forefoot first it is ALWAYS correct to
    ground the heel immediately thereafter.

    It is from that stable platform that the body is catapulted forward.

    --
    In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer - rec.running FAQ
    http://www.faqs.org/faqs/by-newsgroup/rec/rec.running.html Director, San Diego Marathon
    Clinic, est. 1975

    Mindful Running http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp
     
  12. [[ This message was both posted and mailed: see the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for
    details. ]]

    In article <[email protected]>, Tim Downie
    <timdownie2000*obvious*@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

    > Scary stuff if you're a runner.
    >
    > HTH.
    >
    > Tim

    Tim,

    Scary if you use it or have to use it.

    Thanks. I've archived that piece of medical side effects information.

    For me that's the folklore that while scientifically proven, often gets lost in the small print.

    Some tidbits:

    3 grams of water to store 1 gram of glycogen Someone in hyponutremia given a saline solution
    can go into coma or die Women use to carrying loads on their head of a quarter to a third of
    their body weight expend no more energy when walking. Others with a weighted helmet or a
    backpack can expend 20% or more energy when unloaded. The arm never swings behind the body
    when running. The body moves in front of the arm. Running is horizontal movement with minimal
    vertical movement Weight lifting is vertical movement with minimal horizontal movement. The
    nose filters, moistens, and warms the air we breathe. Hunching forward when stretching the
    hamstring actually rolls the pelvis back while keep the back straight and leaning forward
    actually stretching the hamstring.

    In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer - rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon
    Clinic, est. 1975

    Mindful Running: http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
     
  13. On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:13:49 GMT, Ozzie Gontang <[email protected]> wrote:

    > That's why I suggested shoes. At that mileage something is RADICALLY
    >> wrong, and it must be the wrong shoe. You have thebillrodgers word on that. Ignore the noise,
    >> listen to my boyz.
    >
    >Shoes are just one piece of the running injury puzzle.
    >
    >Something may not be radically wrong. Like the final straw that broke the camels back, this may be
    >the final step in some small idiosyncracy that has finally caught up with the runner.
    >

    It's possible, but I truly think shoes play a large role in 90% of the injuries, either agressively
    or passively. If it's not from the shoes you're using, it can likely be helped or eliminated with
    new shoes. It's certainly the cheapest alternative to Dr's and PT's mumbo-gumbo of guesswork.
     
  14. Doug Freese

    Doug Freese Guest

    Shoeless wonder wrote:

    >>Something may not be radically wrong. Like the final straw that broke the camels back, this may be
    >>the final step in some small idiosyncracy that has finally caught up with the runner.
    >>
    >
    >
    > It's possible, but I truly think shoes play a large role in 90% of the injuries, either
    > agressively or passively. If it's not from the shoes you're using, it can likely be helped or
    > eliminated with new shoes. It's certainly the cheapest alternative to Dr's and PT's mumbo-gumbo of
    > guesswork.

    I think 90% is way off the scale. Overuse/abuse is far more common.

    It doesn't cost much to cut back on your training and
    ice/stretch/massage/roll your muscles.

    --
    Doug Freese [email protected]
     
  15. On 23 Sep 2003 14:11:44 GMT, [email protected] (Robwjm2) wrote:

    >
    >
    >>Start with new shoes. It's a starting point. Do not buy nikes either.
    >>
    >
    >Thanks that was what I was using Robert

    BINGO! I thought so. Try some Asics 1080's or 2080's, or if you have no stability issues Asics makes
    a great cushioning shoe with no added supports for about $40 to $50.
     
  16. On 23 Sep 2003 14:28:04 GMT, [email protected] (Robwjm2) wrote:

    >thanks to everyone who replyed. I think the nikes may be the big problem or the one that is easiest
    >to correct.Why are they so bad though?

    Bowerman, the guy who started that company is the devil. Really, it's just because they are cheaply
    made, poorly designed, overpriced trash. They probably are ok for people with no issues, but
    obviously you and I are like 90% of the population that shouldn't wear nikes.

    >and secondly how long does it take to recover from this problem. should I wait untill it has
    >completley healed before running or exersizing

    Only you and your new shoes can answer that. thebillrodgers
     
  17. On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:10:18 GMT, Doug Freese <[email protected]> wrote:

    >I think 90% is way off the scale. Overuse/abuse is far more common.
    >
    Yes, but then again you're frequently wrong.

    >It doesn't cost much to cut back on your training and
    >ice/stretch/massage/roll your muscles.

    Not if you've been running 9 miles a day for 5 years.
     
  18. Well I agree there appears to be something wrong, but it may not be the shoes. In fact at such a
    short run, I doubt if the shoes are the problem, but I would not rule them out.

    --
    Joseph E. Meehan

    26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

    "Bill Clinton (yes it's really me)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:40:33 GMT, "Joseph Meehan" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > What bothers me is the fact that few people develop the problem at
    the
    > >level of running you are doing.
    >
    > That's why I suggested shoes. At that mileage something is RADICALLY wrong, and it must be the
    > wrong shoe. You have thebillrodgers word on that. Ignore the noise, listen to my boyz.
     
  19. I did not miss it, but being unfamiliar with it I did not comment on it.

    --
    Joseph E. Meehan

    26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

    "Tim Downie" <timdownie2000*obvious*@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Joseph Meehan wrote:
    >
    > <snip>
    >
    > > What bothers me is the fact that few people develop the problem
    > > at the level of running you are doing. Is there something else that
    > > might be involved? This is a situation where, in my opinion, you may
    > > want to visit the doctor (podiatrist) to rule out some other problems.
    >
    > I think you may have missed the bit about Cipro (Ciprofloxacin). Bizarre though it may sound,
    > there is a link between this antibiotic use and achilles tendon problems.
    >
    > The following bit from http://www.prostatitis.org/ciproeffects.html is
    worth
    > reading.
    >
    > WARNINGS: All quinolones cause erosion of cartilage in weight-bearing joints. They may cause
    > convulsions, increases intracranial pressure, toxic
    > psychosis, CNS stimulation (i.e.nervousness, lightheadedness, confusion, hallucinations).Should
    > not be used in anyone with seizure disorders, or cerebral arteriosclerosis. There have been
    > deaths due to anaphylactic
    shock,
    > and cardiovascular collapse. Also occurring are tingling, itching, facial swelling, and difficult
    > breathing.
    >
    > DISCONTINUE at the first sign of a rash or any hypersensitivity.
    > Pseudomembranous colitis has been reported from nearly all antibacterial agents (mild to
    > life-threatening), and anyone taking Cipro having diarrhea should immediately check with his
    > prescribing physician. Antibacterial
    drugs
    > may kill off normal intestinal flora, resulting in an overgrowth of Clostridia. It produces a
    > toxin that is a primary cause of "antibiotic-associated- colitis". Achilles and other tendon
    > ruptures requiring surgical repair, resulting in prolonged disability can occur
    from
    > quinolone use. Discontinue Cipro, and consult your physician, if you experience pain,
    > inflammation, or tendon rupture.
    >
    >
    > Scary stuff if you're a runner.
    >
    > HTH.
    >
    > Tim
    >
    > --
    > Remove the obvious to reply by email.
     
  20. Keep in mind that many people ran many many injury free miles before the current high tech shoes
    were available. I do believe they can help, but I don't believe they are the most important
    component But then this seems to be an area of a lot of debate and no one really seems to know.

    --
    Joseph E. Meehan

    26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

    "Shoeless wonder" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:eek:[email protected]...
    > On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:13:49 GMT, Ozzie Gontang <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > That's why I suggested shoes. At that mileage something is RADICALLY
    > >> wrong, and it must be the wrong shoe. You have thebillrodgers word on that. Ignore the noise,
    > >> listen to my boyz.
    > >
    > >Shoes are just one piece of the running injury puzzle.
    > >
    > >Something may not be radically wrong. Like the final straw that broke the camels back, this may
    > >be the final step in some small idiosyncracy that has finally caught up with the runner.
    > >
    >
    > It's possible, but I truly think shoes play a large role in 90% of the injuries, either
    > agressively or passively. If it's not from the shoes you're using, it can likely be helped or
    > eliminated with new shoes. It's certainly the cheapest alternative to Dr's and PT's mumbo-gumbo of
    > guesswork.
     
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