Aching muscles or busted lungs

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by Sky Fly, Jan 26, 2003.

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  1. Sky Fly

    Sky Fly Guest

    It seems to me that when doing a hill climb, I have two choices. I can choose to ride in low gears,
    which makes it easy for me to turn the pedals. However, it also means a higher cadence, and as a
    result I end up hyperventilating. Or I can choose to ride in not-so-low gears, which reduces my
    cadence, and thus my breathing rate comes down. However, this leads to painful muscles (not to
    mention knackered knees).

    So does it have to be this way - do I have to choose between the one and the other?
     
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  2. Just Zis Guy

    Just Zis Guy Guest

    Sky Fly wrote:
    > It seems to me that when doing a hill climb, I have two choices. I can choose to ride in low
    > gears, which makes it easy for me to turn the pedals. However, it also means a higher cadence, and
    > as a result I end up hyperventilating. Or I can choose to ride in not-so-low gears, which reduces
    > my cadence, and thus my breathing rate comes down. However, this leads to painful muscles (not to
    > mention knackered knees).

    I've always thought that if you're doing it right you get aching legs *and* aching lungs,
    but ICBW....

    --
    Guy
    ===
    I wonder if you wouldn't mind piecing out our imperfections with your thoughts; and while you're
    about it perhaps you could think when we talk of bicycles, that you see them printing their proud
    wheels i' the receiving earth; thanks awfully.

    http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.shtml#103 http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.shtml#104
     
  3. Tony W

    Tony W Guest

    "Sky Fly" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > It seems to me that when doing a hill climb, I have two choices. I can choose to ride in low
    > gears, which makes it easy for me to turn the pedals. However, it also means a higher cadence, and
    > as a result I end up hyperventilating. Or I can choose to ride in not-so-low gears, which reduces
    > my cadence, and thus my breathing rate comes down. However, this leads to painful muscles (not to
    > mention knackered knees).
    >
    > So does it have to be this way - do I have to choose between the one and the other?

    At 13 or 14 my nephew (not a candidate for Brain of Britain) had not got the hang of using his
    gears. The slightest hill up would involve much grinding and graunching as his Halford's special was
    changed to the granny and lowest gear. Then, for the downhills (again, however slight) it was the
    big ring and high gear. He only needed two gears -- high & low!!

    While I am not suggesting you are anything like as drastic in your gear selection, it does sound as
    if you need to find a happy medium where you can pedal comfortably and within your best cadence.

    Someone recently reported -- it may have been Guy while playing on the dark side -- that his comfort
    range was relatively much smaller than he had anticipated -- something like 85 to 90 rpm and that
    outside this range he changed gear.

    It sounds as if you, too, need to find your cadence comfort zone and stick with it.

    As I understand it hyperventilating is when you are breathing too fast to be able to get enough
    oxygen into your lungs -- in this case you are unlikely to be able to continue for very long without
    blacking out!!

    T
     
  4. W K

    W K Guest

    "Sky Fly" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > It seems to me that when doing a hill climb, I have two choices. I can choose to ride in low
    > gears, which makes it easy for me to turn the pedals. However, it also means a higher cadence, and
    > as a result I end up hyperventilating. Or I can choose to ride in not-so-low gears, which reduces
    > my cadence, and thus my breathing rate comes down. However, this leads to painful muscles (not to
    > mention knackered knees).
    >
    > So does it have to be this way - do I have to choose between the one and the other?

    No, just go up slower. Really.

    I'd tend not to go for bad legs and knees, that could put you out of action for weeks. If you look
    at stuff on training, you might not get much benefit from going really over the top as you describe
    in pedalling too fast.

    BTW - I used to live on a road with about 4 miles of uninterupted hill and a couple of >15%
    sections. I prefer the flat.
     
  5. Sam Bixby

    Sam Bixby Guest

    i always get both, indeed u should add feeling sick to the list...

    1. aching - dead - legs

    2. inability to breath properly

    3. feeling sick as a sick dog having a sick day

    panda

    "Sky Fly" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > It seems to me that when doing a hill climb, I have two choices. I can choose to ride in low
    > gears, which makes it easy for me to turn the pedals. However, it also means a higher cadence, and
    > as a result I end up hyperventilating. Or I can choose to ride in not-so-low gears, which reduces
    > my cadence, and thus my breathing rate comes down. However, this leads to painful muscles (not to
    > mention knackered knees).
    >
    > So does it have to be this way - do I have to choose between the one and the other?
    >
    >
     
  6. >So does it have to be this way - do I have to choose between the one and the other?
    >

    You have a choice??? Da*n - I get knackered lungs and legs!

    Cheers, helen s (Radox Queen)

    ~~~~~~~~~~
    Flush out that intestinal parasite and/or the waste product before sending a reply!

    Any speeliong mistake$ aR the resiult of my cats sitting on the keyboaRRRDdd
    ~~~~~~~~~~
     
  7. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    Sky Fly wrote:
    > It seems to me that when doing a hill climb, I have two choices. I can choose to ride in low
    > gears, which makes it easy for me to turn the pedals. However, it also means a higher cadence, and
    > as a result I end up hyperventilating.
    (Or breathing heavily not actually hyperventilating)

    That's the one I opt for. Maybe my lungs are better than my legs.

    > Or I can choose to ride in not-so-low gears, which reduces my cadence, and thus my breathing rate
    > comes down. However, this leads to painful muscles (not to mention knackered knees).
    >
    > So does it have to be this way - do I have to choose between the one and the other?

    There is a third way, but it's slow and boring: Use really really low gears.

    ~PB
     
  8. Nick Kew

    Nick Kew Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, one of infinite monkeys at the keyboard of
    "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > I've always thought that if you're doing it right you get aching legs *and* aching lungs, but
    > ICBW....

    Nah. Some of us like our bodily comforts. I find slowing down a useful choice when the lack of
    fitness begins to dominate.

    --
    Wear your paunch with pride!
     
  9. Dr

    Dr Guest

    "Sky Fly" <[email protected]> wrote

    > It seems to me that when doing a hill climb, I have two choices. I can choose to ride in low
    > gears, which makes it easy for me to turn the pedals. However, it also means a higher cadence, and
    > as a result I end up hyperventilating. Or I can choose to ride in not-so-low gears, which reduces
    > my cadence, and thus my breathing rate comes down. However, this leads to painful muscles (not to
    > mention knackered knees).
    >
    > So does it have to be this way - do I have to choose between the one and the other?

    In any machine, force x speed = power. Your legs notice the force & speed components but your heart
    & lungs notice the power component. What happens when dropping a gear is that leg force reduces and
    (pedal) speed increases. But does the product go up or down?

    I found the problem on a long climb was to "listen" to my legs. I would choose a gear to reach a
    comfortable force component but allow the speed to rise. The power component (heart rate) has no
    direct feedback until too late when exhaustion sets in.

    It is necessary to complete the triangle. I used an HRM. To ride at a comfortable heart rate on a
    long hill may mean going slower or using an even lower gear than expected.

    David Roberts
     
  10. Tim Woodall

    Tim Woodall Guest

    On Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:33:14 -0000, Tony W <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > As I understand it hyperventilating is when you are breathing too fast to be able to get enough
    > oxygen into your lungs -- in this case you are unlikely to be able to continue for very long
    > without blacking out!!
    >
    I'm not a medic but I think hyperventilating is when you breathe sufficiently fast to remove CO2
    from the body faster than your body is producing it.

    Typical resting pCO2 is about 40mmHg. With hyperventilating this can be reduced to about 30mmHg. The
    "must breathe" reflex occurs at about 50mmHg.

    But, because normal blood is about 97-98% oxygenated, the hyperventilating doesn't
    (significantly) increase the O2 available to the body but it can double the time before the "must
    breathe" feeling occurs.

    Particularly when swimming underwater this can mean that people can hold their breath until they
    blackout, often with fatal concequences.

    On a bike I suppose the eventual result could also be a blackout (leading to a fall) but I would
    expect it might actually be quite hard to hyperventilate normally. At the end of a downhill prior to
    going uphill might be possible - I don't know if this would be possible and I'm not going to try!

    The only time I have ever hyperventilated (accidentally) was when (trying) to play a flute. There is
    no resistance to the blow and, unless you are doing it properly, most of the air doesn't produce
    much if any effect on the instrument so you end up blowing very hard for very little effect. It was
    when I stopped that I started feeling very light headed - presumably I wasn't breathing enough.

    Regards,

    Tim.

    --
    God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.

    http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/
     
  11. W K

    W K Guest

    "Tim Woodall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    > But, because normal blood is about 97-98% oxygenated, the hyperventilating doesn't
    > (significantly) increase the O2 available to the body but it can double the time before the "must
    > breathe" feeling occurs.

    Odd thing. Try breathing really hard and you'll get some sort of oxygen narcotic effect. I do this
    when trying to do lengths underwater (short camp site pools!). You get further, but this might be to
    do with oxygen stored in muscles.

    Anyway, breathing really hard after climbing a hill is just breathing really hard.
     
  12. Tony W

    Tony W Guest

    "Tim Woodall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > On Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:33:14 -0000, Tony W <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > > As I understand it hyperventilating is when you are breathing too fast
    to be
    > > able to get enough oxygen into your lungs -- in this case you are
    unlikely
    > > to be able to continue for very long without blacking out!!
    > >
    > I'm not a medic but I think hyperventilating is when you breathe sufficiently fast to remove CO2
    > from the body faster than your body is producing it.

    Snip

    I suspect the OP may have been misusing the term hyperventilate to just mean breathing fast & heavy
    -- i.e. indicating he was putting a lot of effort into cycling fast up the hill.

    I may be wrong -- I often am!!

    (That one statement proves I am NOT P Smith & I claim my 10 GBP!!!)

    T
     
  13. Just Zis Guy

    Just Zis Guy Guest

    On Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:03:28 +0000, [email protected] (Nick Kew) wrote:

    >> I've always thought that if you're doing it right you get aching legs *and* aching lungs, but
    >> ICBW....
    >Nah. Some of us like our bodily comforts. I find slowing down a useful choice when the lack of
    >fitness begins to dominate.

    Tchah! I bet you're one of these people who uses a turbo trainer instead of going out and getting
    wet and cold like a Real Man (tm).

    Guy
    ===
    ** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com (BT ADSL and
    dynamic DNS permitting)
    NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old mail addresses may no longer
    work. Apologies.
     
  14. Just Zis Guy

    Just Zis Guy Guest

    On Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:26:24 +0000 (UTC), "G S Banner"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >As a matter of interest (not personal, I hasten to add!) would you say that you have "skinny"
    >muscles on your thighs or "meaty" ones?

    Judge for yourself :) <http://www.chapmancentral.com/Web/public.nsf/Documents/Bike_Optima_Stinger>

    Bear in mind that I'm a shade over 6ft tall.

    Guy
    ===
    ** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com (BT ADSL and
    dynamic DNS permitting)
    NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old mail addresses may no longer
    work. Apologies.
     
  15. Just Zis Guy

    Just Zis Guy Guest

    On Fri, 24 Jan 2003 12:33:47 +0000, David Pipes <[email protected]> wrote:

    >There's a house just north of Venlo called 'Mountain View' - they must have damned powerful
    >binoculars!

    Or they are British and doing irony :)

    Guy
    ===
    ** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com (BT ADSL and
    dynamic DNS permitting)
    NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old mail addresses may no longer
    work. Apologies.
     
  16. G S Banner

    G S Banner Guest

    "Sky Fly" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > It seems to me that when doing a hill climb, I have two choices. I can choose to ride in low
    > gears, which makes it easy for me to turn the pedals. However, it also means a higher cadence, and
    > as a result I end up hyperventilating. Or I can choose to ride in not-so-low gears, which reduces
    > my cadence, and thus my breathing rate comes down. However, this leads to painful muscles (not to
    > mention knackered knees).
    >
    > So does it have to be this way - do I have to choose between the one and the other?
    >

    Sounds a bit obvious, but what about trying the gears between the low ones and the not-so-low ones
    (aka The Ones In The Middle).

    More usefully, I try to spin between 84 and 92 on the flat. On hills, I find that if I can maintain
    that cadence all well and good, but more often than not the gradient changes more quickly than I can
    react and change to the required gear to stay in that band. So I find 75 a better cadence for hills
    - below that things start getting laboured. Climbing out of the saddle seems to make deep breathing
    a bit more tolerable - maybe something to do with straightening your torso/abdomen and letting your
    diaphragm have a bt more space. Dunno.
     
  17. Bas

    Bas Guest

    Busted lungs (in my non-expert opinion) have to do with the power (watts) you produce. Painful
    muscles have nothing to do with power but with force.... (I think) And, power is force times rpm.

    So what I think you're doing when going to lower gears is use less force and more rpm. You're
    probably overdoing it on the rpm, producing more watts in the low gear than in the high gear ->
    busted lungs.

    Try this: climb a hill in high gear (with no busted lungs) and look at your cycling computer for the
    speed you're doing. Next day climb the same hill at a lower gear BUT AT THE SAME ROADSPEED. Using
    the same speed should keep your power output the same -> no painful legs and no busted lungs.

    Last year I was in the Vosges mountains (France). I cycled up some hills in the 22 front / 32 back
    gear. At 8 kmh I was OK, at 9 kmh (which I could manage easily cause the force I had to use was not
    that big) I fell of the bike panting after a few minutes.....

    By the way, that is THE disadvantage of being Dutch, no hills (I like hills)

    Me wants to go on vacation again (sigh)

    Bas

    "Sky Fly" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > It seems to me that when doing a hill climb, I have two choices. I can choose to ride in low
    > gears, which makes it easy for me to turn the pedals. However, it also means a higher cadence, and
    > as a result I end up hyperventilating. Or I can choose to ride in not-so-low gears, which reduces
    > my cadence, and thus my breathing rate comes down. However, this leads to painful muscles (not to
    > mention knackered knees).
    >
    > So does it have to be this way - do I have to choose between the one and the other?
    >
    >
     
  18. David Pipes

    David Pipes Guest

    In message <[email protected]>, Sam Bixby <[email protected]> writes
    >in fairness i cycled round hollland a couple of years back (im in UK) and u have some BIG bridges,
    >try trainning up them!
    There's a house just north of Venlo called 'Mountain View' - they must have damned powerful
    binoculars!
    --
    DP
     
  19. Sky Fly

    Sky Fly Guest

    "Tony W" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Sky Fly" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > ....... However, it also means a higher cadence, and as a result I end up hyperventilating.
    >
    > At 13 or 14 my nephew (not a candidate for Brain of Britain) had not got the hang of using his
    > gears. The slightest hill up would involve much grinding and graunching as his Halford's special
    > was changed to the granny and lowest gear. Then, for the downhills (again, however slight) it was
    > the big ring and high gear. He only needed two gears -- high & low!!
    >
    > While I am not suggesting you are anything like as drastic in your gear selection, it does sound
    > as if you need to find a happy medium where you can pedal comfortably and within your best
    > cadence.

    No, Tony, I don't do that - but it really does seem like there's no in between. As soon as I start
    dropping gears to make turning the pedals easier, my breathing rate goes up - up - up.

    > As I understand it hyperventilating is when you are breathing too fast to be able to get enough
    > oxygen into your lungs -- in this case you are unlikely to be able to continue for very long
    > without blacking out!!

    Mea culpa - that's what happens when you try to use long fancy words instead of sticking to the
    basics. I meant "breathing deeper and faster".

    --
    Akin

    aknak at aksoto dot idps dot co dot uk
     
  20. Russell

    Russell Guest

    Sam Bixby <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > i always get both, indeed u should add feeling sick to the list...
    >
    > 1. aching - dead - legs
    >
    > 2. inability to breath properly
    >
    > 3. feeling sick as a sick dog having a sick day
    >
    > panda
    >
    >

    That makes me think of the MTB champion who threw up as he crossed the line during the mens TT in
    the road world champs 2002. The commentator spectacularly missed it - even when it was repeated in
    slow motion! But what I'm trying to get at is what must it be like when you are breathing at your
    absolute maximum only to find your pipes are full of puke! He did look pretty uncomfortable.

    Russell
     
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