Adjusted my headset - is it too tight?

[PJay]

I dropped my stem a bit and readjusted my headset, I think things are fine
but I'm a tad new to this so thought I'd check things out.

I tighten the top cap incrementally, tightening the stem pinch bolts and
checking for play etc. until I could detect no play at the lower race. At
this point I could detect a faint knocking/ticking from the upper race and
tightened things up again until this was eliminate. I guess that this was
probably the 'optimal' point.

Being a bit overcautious a sat on the saddle, applied the front brake and
rocked the bike. I heard some noise which, embarassingly, and with hindsight
I think were the brake blocks rubbing as the rim slipped with the rocking,
but consequently I tightened the headset up another 1/4 turn.

Steering is silky smooth and the chap at the bike shop could detect no play
and noted the smooth steering and said that everything was fine but the
headset I have (Cane Creek S2 11/8th) has cartridge bearings which I would
imagine are harder to bind so I was wondering whether there is any
possibility that the headset is too tight and might damage something (the
frame or the headset itself). Things aren't excessively overtight and
everything seems to work properly but I just wondered whether there would be
any point in re-adjusting it to be looser?

Sorry, pretty basic stuff I know but pretty new to bike maintainence
(enjoying it though) and lack confidence.

 

[Pete Biggs]

PJay wrote:
> I dropped my stem a bit and readjusted my headset, I think things are
> fine but I'm a tad new to this so thought I'd check things out.
>
> I tighten the top cap incrementally, tightening the stem pinch bolts
> and checking for play etc. until I could detect no play at the lower
> race. At this point I could detect a faint knocking/ticking from the
> upper race and tightened things up again until this was eliminate. I
> guess that this was probably the 'optimal' point.
>
> Being a bit overcautious a sat on the saddle, applied the front brake
> and rocked the bike. I heard some noise which, embarassingly, and
> with hindsight I think were the brake blocks rubbing as the rim
> slipped with the rocking, but consequently I tightened the headset up
> another 1/4 turn.
>
> Steering is silky smooth and the chap at the bike shop could detect
> no play and noted the smooth steering and said that everything was
> fine but the headset I have (Cane Creek S2 11/8th) has cartridge
> bearings which I would imagine are harder to bind so I was wondering
> whether there is any possibility that the headset is too tight and
> might damage something (the frame or the headset itself). Things
> aren't excessively overtight and everything seems to work properly
> but I just wondered whether there would be any point in re-adjusting
> it to be looser?

In general with headsets, steering can sometimes be fine at first even
when the bearings are overtightened*, and +1/4 turn is enough to increase
wear, so it's worth re-adjusting to check when in doubt.

* good sign that headset & frame is in good condition if that is possible
without binding.

~PB

 

[Doki]

"PJay" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I dropped my stem a bit and readjusted my headset, I think things are fine
>but I'm a tad new to this so thought I'd check things out.
>
> I tighten the top cap incrementally, tightening the stem pinch bolts and
> checking for play etc. until I could detect no play at the lower race. At
> this point I could detect a faint knocking/ticking from the upper race and
> tightened things up again until this was eliminate. I guess that this was
> probably the 'optimal' point.
>
> Being a bit overcautious a sat on the saddle, applied the front brake and
> rocked the bike. I heard some noise which, embarassingly, and with
> hindsight I think were the brake blocks rubbing as the rim slipped with
> the rocking, but consequently I tightened the headset up another 1/4 turn.
>
> Steering is silky smooth and the chap at the bike shop could detect no
> play and noted the smooth steering and said that everything was fine but
> the headset I have (Cane Creek S2 11/8th) has cartridge bearings which I
> would imagine are harder to bind so I was wondering whether there is any
> possibility that the headset is too tight and might damage something (the
> frame or the headset itself). Things aren't excessively overtight and
> everything seems to work properly but I just wondered whether there would
> be any point in re-adjusting it to be looser?
>
> Sorry, pretty basic stuff I know but pretty new to bike maintainence
> (enjoying it though) and lack confidence.

Always tighten the top cap *before* doing up the stem bolts. IMO star nuts
aren't the most rigid things in the world and will probably limit the amount
of tension on the headset.

 

[PJay]

I've readjusted things (and lowered the stem again a bit). What I am unsure
of is that at the point where all play is removed from the lower race I get
a slight ticking sound from the upper race.

I don't think it's possible to get 'play' at the upper race as the cartridge
is engaged with the cup and held in place with the compression ring even
before preload is applied (effectively preloaded by default?) but tightening
things up a bit more does reduce this.

Should I tighten things to remove the 'ticking' sound or stop when I can
detect no play at the lower race?

"PJay" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I dropped my stem a bit and readjusted my headset, I think things are fine
>but I'm a tad new to this so thought I'd check things out.
>
> I tighten the top cap incrementally, tightening the stem pinch bolts and
> checking for play etc. until I could detect no play at the lower race. At
> this point I could detect a faint knocking/ticking from the upper race and
> tightened things up again until this was eliminate. I guess that this was
> probably the 'optimal' point.
>
> Being a bit overcautious a sat on the saddle, applied the front brake and
> rocked the bike. I heard some noise which, embarassingly, and with
> hindsight I think were the brake blocks rubbing as the rim slipped with
> the rocking, but consequently I tightened the headset up another 1/4 turn.
>
> Steering is silky smooth and the chap at the bike shop could detect no
> play and noted the smooth steering and said that everything was fine but
> the headset I have (Cane Creek S2 11/8th) has cartridge bearings which I
> would imagine are harder to bind so I was wondering whether there is any
> possibility that the headset is too tight and might damage something (the
> frame or the headset itself). Things aren't excessively overtight and
> everything seems to work properly but I just wondered whether there would
> be any point in re-adjusting it to be looser?
>
> Sorry, pretty basic stuff I know but pretty new to bike maintainence
> (enjoying it though) and lack confidence.
>

 

[Pete Biggs]

PJay wrote:
> I've readjusted things (and lowered the stem again a bit). What I am
> unsure of is that at the point where all play is removed from the
> lower race I get a slight ticking sound from the upper race.
>
> I don't think it's possible to get 'play' at the upper race as the
> cartridge is engaged with the cup and held in place with the
> compression ring even before preload is applied (effectively
> preloaded by default?) but tightening things up a bit more does
> reduce this.

I think you're right there in that the ring provides a certain amount of
preload but still there's scope for more. (I've not used the same model
as yours but have used a cartridge aheadset with o ring).

> Should I tighten things to remove the 'ticking' sound or stop when I
> can detect no play at the lower race?

I would ignore ticking sounds and just stop when no movement could be
/felt/ (in lower or upper) when rocking the bike with a fair-but-not-crazy
amount of force with front brake on hard.

Alternative test (not my preferred one but perhaps good enough): Drop
front of bike on hard surface and listen for forks rattling. Tighten
until they don't rattle.

(Neither of the above two tests are good for suspension forks, by the
way).

If any doubt left, a trace of play is better than too tight, imo. I err
on that side if any. The lower bearing gets a harder life and wears out
faster, so don't worry so much about the upper.

~PB

 

[PJay]

Thanks Pete,

I think things are setup ok. I can't detect any knocking or play when
rocking the bike and I've done a fair bit of riding over rough ground and
braked hard with the front brake with no sign of knocking or play either, I
was just a little unsure about the ticking sound which kind of suggests
movement. With that said the ticking sound doesn't get any worse when
rocking the bike hard and it's inaudible when riding when the headset must
be under most strain.

To be honest I'm not sure really whether I've erred on the loose or tight
side of preload, interestingly someone in a web forum suggested doing things
up as tight as possible without effecting the steering! It seems to be
though that both too loose or too tight can muck up the bearings (my initial
fear of headtube ovalisation seems to be groundless).

I've tried the bouncing the front wheel approach but find that just feeling
for play is best, it's hard to listen for play with the chain and brake
levers rattling and cable chattering away.

Thanks for the input, I'm pretty sure it's all alright but I'm pretty new
(and not very confident) with all this so it's good to check things out.

"Pete Biggs" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> PJay wrote:
>> I've readjusted things (and lowered the stem again a bit). What I am
>> unsure of is that at the point where all play is removed from the
>> lower race I get a slight ticking sound from the upper race.
>>
>> I don't think it's possible to get 'play' at the upper race as the
>> cartridge is engaged with the cup and held in place with the
>> compression ring even before preload is applied (effectively
>> preloaded by default?) but tightening things up a bit more does
>> reduce this.
>
> I think you're right there in that the ring provides a certain amount of
> preload but still there's scope for more. (I've not used the same model
> as yours but have used a cartridge aheadset with o ring).
>
>> Should I tighten things to remove the 'ticking' sound or stop when I
>> can detect no play at the lower race?
>
> I would ignore ticking sounds and just stop when no movement could be
> /felt/ (in lower or upper) when rocking the bike with a fair-but-not-crazy
> amount of force with front brake on hard.
>
> Alternative test (not my preferred one but perhaps good enough): Drop
> front of bike on hard surface and listen for forks rattling. Tighten
> until they don't rattle.
>
> (Neither of the above two tests are good for suspension forks, by the
> way).
>
> If any doubt left, a trace of play is better than too tight, imo. I err
> on that side if any. The lower bearing gets a harder life and wears out
> faster, so don't worry so much about the upper.
>
> ~PB
>
>

 

[PJay]

Being an inquisitive (and worrysome) sort of chap I've had a look at things
and discovered that the ticking sound appears to be slight movement of the
top cover against the top cup; I've removed the bearings and compression
ring just to be sure and replaced the top cover, moving it slightly produces
the ticking. It would appear to have nothing to do with movement/play at the
bearings.

Interestingly I could hear the ticking when I locked the front brake and
rocked the bike but not when I pushed the front wheel against a wall and
pushed against the saddle, suggesting that it might be slight movement
through the stem and/or spacer stack or perhaps slight flexing in the steel
steerer.

I'm assuming therefore that there's nothing to worry about, would this be
fair or might there be something not quite right with the pressing of the
upper cup?
"Pete Biggs" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> PJay wrote:
>> I've readjusted things (and lowered the stem again a bit). What I am
>> unsure of is that at the point where all play is removed from the
>> lower race I get a slight ticking sound from the upper race.
>>
>> I don't think it's possible to get 'play' at the upper race as the
>> cartridge is engaged with the cup and held in place with the
>> compression ring even before preload is applied (effectively
>> preloaded by default?) but tightening things up a bit more does
>> reduce this.
>
> I think you're right there in that the ring provides a certain amount of
> preload but still there's scope for more. (I've not used the same model
> as yours but have used a cartridge aheadset with o ring).
>
>> Should I tighten things to remove the 'ticking' sound or stop when I
>> can detect no play at the lower race?
>
> I would ignore ticking sounds and just stop when no movement could be
> /felt/ (in lower or upper) when rocking the bike with a fair-but-not-crazy
> amount of force with front brake on hard.
>
> Alternative test (not my preferred one but perhaps good enough): Drop
> front of bike on hard surface and listen for forks rattling. Tighten
> until they don't rattle.
>
> (Neither of the above two tests are good for suspension forks, by the
> way).
>
> If any doubt left, a trace of play is better than too tight, imo. I err
> on that side if any. The lower bearing gets a harder life and wears out
> faster, so don't worry so much about the upper.
>
> ~PB
>
>

 

[Jon Senior]

On Mon, 01 May 2006 19:30:18 +0100, PJay wrote:
> Being an inquisitive (and worrysome) sort of chap I've had a look at things
> and discovered that the ticking sound appears to be slight movement of the
> top cover against the top cup; I've removed the bearings and compression
> ring just to be sure and replaced the top cover, moving it slightly produces
> the ticking. It would appear to have nothing to do with movement/play at the
> bearings.
>
> Interestingly I could hear the ticking when I locked the front brake and
> rocked the bike but not when I pushed the front wheel against a wall and
> pushed against the saddle, suggesting that it might be slight movement
> through the stem and/or spacer stack or perhaps slight flexing in the steel
> steerer.
>
> I'm assuming therefore that there's nothing to worry about, would this be
> fair or might there be something not quite right with the pressing of the
> upper cup?

I get that on my Giant OCR. It's the aluminium on aluminum sound of
spacers moving slightly. I was tempted by the spacers from one
manufacturer (Don't remember who) which interlock to prevent this. A light
coating of copper grease to the contacting surfaces of all the spacers and
the stem may help aliviate it for a while at least.

Jon

 

[Pete Biggs]

PJay wrote:
> Being an inquisitive (and worrysome) sort of chap I've had a look at
> things and discovered that the ticking sound appears to be slight
> movement of the top cover against the top cup; I've removed the
> bearings and compression ring just to be sure and replaced the top
> cover, moving it slightly produces the ticking. It would appear to
> have nothing to do with movement/play at the bearings.
>
> Interestingly I could hear the ticking when I locked the front brake
> and rocked the bike but not when I pushed the front wheel against a
> wall and pushed against the saddle, suggesting that it might be
> slight movement through the stem and/or spacer stack or perhaps
> slight flexing in the steel steerer.
>
> I'm assuming therefore that there's nothing to worry about, would
> this be fair or might there be something not quite right with the
> pressing of the upper cup?

I'm not sure either way but I would expect worse symptoms if there was
anything wrong worth worrying about, ie. that would cause danger,
excessive wear or poor performance.

Try rec.bicycles.tech for more opinions, and more expert than mine. Best
of luck.

~PB

 

[PJay]

I'm guessing here but I'd imagine that cartridge bearings are harder to bind
or damage by overtightening at the preload forces will presumably be taken
by the cartridge races and not the bearings themselves.

I could be talking nonsense though!
"Pete Biggs" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> PJay wrote:
>> I dropped my stem a bit and readjusted my headset, I think things are
>> fine but I'm a tad new to this so thought I'd check things out.
>>
>> I tighten the top cap incrementally, tightening the stem pinch bolts
>> and checking for play etc. until I could detect no play at the lower
>> race. At this point I could detect a faint knocking/ticking from the
>> upper race and tightened things up again until this was eliminate. I
>> guess that this was probably the 'optimal' point.
>>
>> Being a bit overcautious a sat on the saddle, applied the front brake
>> and rocked the bike. I heard some noise which, embarassingly, and
>> with hindsight I think were the brake blocks rubbing as the rim
>> slipped with the rocking, but consequently I tightened the headset up
>> another 1/4 turn.
>>
>> Steering is silky smooth and the chap at the bike shop could detect
>> no play and noted the smooth steering and said that everything was
>> fine but the headset I have (Cane Creek S2 11/8th) has cartridge
>> bearings which I would imagine are harder to bind so I was wondering
>> whether there is any possibility that the headset is too tight and
>> might damage something (the frame or the headset itself). Things
>> aren't excessively overtight and everything seems to work properly
>> but I just wondered whether there would be any point in re-adjusting
>> it to be looser?
>
> In general with headsets, steering can sometimes be fine at first even
> when the bearings are overtightened*, and +1/4 turn is enough to increase
> wear, so it's worth re-adjusting to check when in doubt.
>
> * good sign that headset & frame is in good condition if that is possible
> without binding.
>
> ~PB
>
>
>

 

[Pete Biggs]

PJay wrote:
> I'm guessing here but I'd imagine that cartridge bearings are harder
> to bind or damage by overtightening at the preload forces will
> presumably be taken by the cartridge races and not the bearings
> themselves.

Now's the time to admit that the only cartridge headset I've used was a
Stronglight O'Light with needle bearings in sealed "cartridges" (not like
A9 with races loose from the needles). I had the worst case of binding
ever with these. But maybe other sorts of headset cartridges with other
sorts of bearings are very different. You've given me an idea to look
into them for my road bike. Thank you!

I think you may be right about binding being harder if the bearings are
like wheel hub cartridge bearings.

~PB