Advice on wheels for heavy rider



CAMPYBOB

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Sep 12, 2005
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I posted plenty of data. Read the table in the link. Here. I'll copy/paste it here for you to read.



Now, can you tell the class what the difference in lateral stiffness between the weakest wheel and the strongest on that chart? Ignoring tire factors, generate a graph showing lateral movement at the rim by a 225-pound rider (our sample) capable or bursts of 600 watts output while bootstomping the bike up a 15% grade paved with patch-over-patch chip & seal.

Bonus points will be awarded for calculating brake block rub energy losses using the Campagnolo Record recommended brake pad clearance settings.
Bonus points for calculating tire slip angles.
Bonus points for generating which curse words any given rider in Arizona might use after spending $2.5K on a pair of wet noodle Lew Wheels.
Bonus points for calculating the rider weight limits used by some rim manufacturers.

You may use a calculator.

Can you scientifically describe 'why' a human rider could not possibly detect such a difference...in 200 words or less? Scientifically! Not just some vague opinion that 'humans can not tell the difference!'.

Can you negate the study's finding that shows pro riders' power loss when using flexible wheels over stiffer wheels?

Can you explain why the study found rider forces generated to flex wheels exceeded the mass used by Jobst in his 'scientific' test?

Can you explain, using ISO or ANSI/NIST units why a heavier or more powerful rider would yield entirely different results of a radial/lateral flexibility test than a lightweight or fred rider? Multiple strain gages and accelerometers and multi-channel data collection is permitted.

Can you scientifically demonstrate that banging the brake blocks or rubbing the stays is completely undetectable by riders with an I.Q. above room temperature?

Empiricle data collection...it causes the butthurt.



I keed! I keed!

It's humor. Another of life's events best detected with...the human senses.

BTW, did you happen to attend this Phoenix funeral? http://www.theblaze.com/stories/clothes-iron-to-the-face-kills-home-invader-massive-fight-breaks-out-at-funeral/

More humor in the comments section. Use your senses. And your sense.

Wheels.

If it rolls like a duck and flexes like a duck...it just might be a duck!
 

CAMPYBOB

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Sep 12, 2005
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Uh oh! Better sue CC for false advertising!

"By tying & soldering them, it[COLOR= rgb(255, 0, 0)] effectively increases the flange diameter of the hubs, increasing torsional stiffness.[/COLOR] The interlaced crosses are locked together when you tie & solder them, which braces the spokes,[COLOR= rgb(255, 0, 0)] making them laterally stiffer [/COLOR]and more durable."

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/product-components/2011-dt-swiss-240rr-465-tied--soldered-wheels-6087.41.1.html

And not a lick out scientific evidence to back up their claims! None!

I wonder...how DO they get away with it in a world full of tort lawyers just waiting on a cause to pounce upon? I smell a class-action suit in the works! Who's with me?!?!

Meh...common sense. It ain't so common in America anymore.
 

CAMPYBOB

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Sep 12, 2005
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More good news!

I just found another wealthy, capitalist lacky running dog bicycle retailer to add to our class action lawsuit!

Get a load of these outrageous LIES!

http://www.llewellynbikes.com/products/wheelbuilding.htm

"Tie and soldering of spoke crossing points...

It can [COLOR= rgb(255, 0, 0)]give the front wheel a positive and direct response to steering input especially when stomping and sprinting out of the saddle.[/COLOR] The [COLOR= rgb(255, 0, 0)]rear wheels benefits by eliminating hub wind up and increased lateral stability, giving positive response to pedal force input. [/COLOR]This is all the more important with low spoke number or light wheels. All your pedal force goes to the tyre.

LIES! Dirty, outright, mindnumbingly UNSCIENTIFIC LIES! All designed to separate the stupid proletariet from its' hard earned kopeks! Nothing more than sales propaganda from the masters of double-speak and sales hype!

Praise the Lord we have been set free from the nonesense of common sense! All hail science!

Lawyer up, baby! We're all going to be millionaires and billionaires thanks to the bald faced lies of varying wheel stiffness charts! To hell with the facts and figures! I've got the truth on my side!

If the Jobst's 35-pound calculation fits, you must aquit!


Ahah! Another dirtbag out there, claiming increased stiffness! Join me in sueing him into the poor house for his outrageous lies!

http://bikewiseoxford.com/articles/rounder-wheels-custom-wheels-by-doug-hamilton-pg71.htm

"[COLOR= rgb(255, 0, 0)]Keener steering response and better power transfer [/COLOR]are but two of the advantages."

LIES! Obvious, unmitigated lies! He only wants your money and has a complete disregard for science! Let's show him a thing or three about wheel stiffness! We know better! We read...a book!



And yet another outfit, bent on smearing science in order to scam us out of our hard earned money!

http://www.velowheels.com/services.html

"With the high demands being placed on rims, especially the rear, tying and soldering of spokes where they cross is a useful tool to take large amounts of stress away at the spoke head at the hub flange.[COLOR= rgb(255, 0, 0)] Larger riders, or riders who place their equipment under extreme loads can quickly benefit by having their wheels tied and soldered.[/COLOR]

Sure...and I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'ld like to sell ya! I've even calculated the exact stresses...if only those cables hadn't been defective!

It's become obvious, these charletons must be stopped! Along with the laterally stiff, vertically compliant crowd! It is scientifically clear that bigger riders can not benefit from a stiffer, stronger wheel! Clydesdales of America...Untie!!!...er...Unite!!!



And really...does anyone still believe a tamdem would ever benefit from a stiffer, stronger tied and soldered wheel? Certainly NOT! That's just crazy talk!

http://www.rexcycles.com/service-fittings/

"
We offer expert wheelbuilding for all types of applications here at Rex Cycles, everything from [COLOR= rgb(255, 0, 0)]four-cross tied-and-soldered tandem wheels [/COLOR]to radially-laced bladed-spoked setups.

We also specialize in tying and soldering wheels, a somewhat artsy process (wrapping the point where the spokes cross with a bit of thin wire) [COLOR= rgb(255, 0, 0)]ensures the wheel will be stiff, strong,[/COLOR] unique, and beautiful."




There we have it! A pack of lies. All ready to be sued right out of existence! I don't know what you fellas plan on spending your lawsuit winnings on, but I'm going out and buying myself a new Weller soldering iron!
 

dhk2

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Aug 8, 2006
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CB, that's an interesting link, but it doesn't seem to support your arguement that laterally stiff wheels have a stiff ride, one that can be instantly recognized from a laterally-softer wheel by anyone with a discerning ass. The first paragraph, "Frontal Stiffness" states all standard-spoked wheels have very high frontal stiffness, and that differences in perceived ride qualities are therefore down to the tires:

"Even though some wheels seem, a priori, softer than others, the comfort will mostly be related to the tyre:
- tubular or clincher
- inflation pressure of the tyre
- tyre width
- supplness of the casing
- suppleness of the inner tube "

The rest of the article discusses lateral stiffness. Interesting data, but I have some issues with their conclusions in paragraph 2a, and wish they would have gone more into the issue of brake rub.
 

dhk2

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Aug 8, 2006
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OK, have to ask: if tied-and-soldered spoke wheels are so great, why is it virtually no one uses them anymore? I ride with an old ex-racer that talks about how they used to tie-and-solder spokes to make wheels super stiff back in the day; will have to ask him on our ride next week why it fell out of favor.
 

alienator

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Jun 10, 2004
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dhk2 said:
OK, have to ask: if tied-and-soldered spoke wheels are so great, why is it virtually no one uses them anymore? I ride with an old ex-racer that talks about how they used to tie-and-solder spokes to make wheels super stiff back in the day; will have to ask him on our ride next week why it fell out of favor.
It's most likely because their only benefit is they keep a broken spoke from flopping around. They don't contribute to lateral stiffness. Some may still be used in the Northern Classics, but otherwise they are rarely seen. Tying and soldering just add expense. Also for a cycling team, tying soldering also takes valuable time away from doing other things.
 

Eichers

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Sep 17, 2010
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Originally Posted by dhk2 .

CB, that's an interesting link, but it doesn't seem to support your arguement that laterally stiff wheels have a stiff ride, one that can be instantly recognized from a laterally-softer wheel by anyone with a discerning ass. The first paragraph, "Frontal Stiffness" states all standard-spoked wheels have very high frontal stiffness, and that differences in perceived ride qualities are therefore down to the tires:

"Even though some wheels seem, a priori, softer than others, the comfort will mostly be related to the tyre:
- tubular or clincher
- inflation pressure of the tyre
- tyre width
- supplness of the casing
- suppleness of the inner tube "

The rest of the article discusses lateral stiffness. Interesting data, but I have some issues with their conclusions in paragraph 2a, and wish they would have gone more into the issue of brake rub.
Hi dhk2, does that mean alienator is wrong or CampyBob is wrong or are they both right or both wrong ???
 

alienator

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Jun 10, 2004
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KLabs said:
Hi dhk2, does that mean alienator is wrong  or  CampyBob is wrong  or  are they both right   or  both wrong   ???
 
 
As I said, test data shows that tying and soldering does not increase lateral stiffness. From a physics point of view, there is no reason that tying and soldering should increase lateral stiffness, and in this case, the physics agrees with the test results which is one of the great things about physics.
 

VeloWheels

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Feb 11, 2012
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[SIZE= medium]Wow, I am left speechless and laughing at the comments made by CampyBob. I am the owner/operator of VeloWheels.com. I will continue to advertise the service of tying and soldering, period. I have about 200+ wheels out there that I have tied and customers that swear by them! In the end, it is a matter of opinion. That is the great part of this country; you have the right to your own opinions. GrumpyBob wants to take it to another level by using slander. [/SIZE]

[SIZE= medium]I still have to chuckle when I read about his class action law suits. Seriously?[/SIZE]
 

CAMPYBOB

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Sep 12, 2005
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[SIZE= medium]Wow, I am left speechless and laughing at the comments made by CampyBob.[/SIZE]

[SIZE= medium]Good! That was my goal. Better to laugh than be butthurt![/SIZE]

[SIZE= medium]I still have to chuckle when I read about his class action law suits. Seriously?[/SIZE]

[SIZE= medium]Uh...no. Not seriously. Humorously. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif[/SIZE]

[SIZE= medium]I have about 200+ wheels out there that I have tied and customers that swear by them! [/SIZE]


[SIZE= medium]Of course they do. They have common sense. Or perhaps they just have sense. I swear by mine, also...although they are TOO STIFF for many of the roads I train on. Bombproof, yes. Comfortable on my selection of pavement? Not so much.[/SIZE]

[SIZE= medium]So, for those of you keeping score at home...that's 201 votes for tied & soldered...ONE vote against.[/SIZE]

[SIZE= medium]Now, where did I stash my pitchfork and torch? Time to dial up my lawyer and put the wheel-scammers on the run! To the castle, peasants! Storm the bike shops while there's still time to save your paltry $20 T&S fee!!!![/SIZE]
 

CAMPYBOB

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Sep 12, 2005
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why is it virtually no one uses them anymore?

My only guess is that it is because it adds...weight. My God, man! This is the era of sub 1200 gram wheel sets! Lew can build you a wet noodle set of wheels out of dried oatmeal and stale marshmellows for under 200 grams!!! So what if a 200-pound brutus with power can wind them up like a rubber band? So what if they're advertised with weight 'safety' limit? So what if some obscure lateral stiffness chart that scientists ignore show them to be 2/3rds more flexy than factory cheapies from some third world country?

Get with the program!

36 holes? Straight gauge? (or even triple butted?) Aluminum rims with eyelets? Then add more weight with some dinosaur technique that worked just fine for your grandad? Are you crazoid? /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

Nothing sexy about any of that.

Carbon is sexy and sex sells. 12 razor sharp aero spokes in three colors with tracompazoid technology (sounds good, doesn't it?) sells. Aero nipples that require a freakin' magnet to feed into the rim sell. Good. Freakin'. Grief. (cue the "I'm too sexy for my spokes!" music)

Glue that spoke right in place! Threads? What are we? Cave men? Soldered wire? Why how positively pre-Space Age!

I ride with an old ex-racer that talks about how they used to tie-and-solder spokes to make wheels super stiff back in the day;

He lies!!!! Stiffer? NEVER!!!!

Seriously, it ain't about the money when it comes to T&S. The Cat V kiddies all play on $1,500-$2,000 wheelsets nowadays. Yeah...with speed that an old fart can lap them with in the tuesday evening training crit. And they're on $4,000 frames with carbon areo wheelsets...with power meters.

No. It is not about the money.

I ran the wheel truck for a local podunk road race recently and the Cat IV race stuffed just as many dollars worth of high-zoot wheels into my rig as the I-II-III racers. Power Tap hubs for local racers...who knew?
 

VeloWheels

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Feb 11, 2012
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[SIZE= medium]In the end, you either swear by them or swear against them.[/SIZE]

[SIZE= medium]Campybob, I should have read this post from the beginning. [/SIZE]
 

CAMPYBOB

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Sep 12, 2005
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Reading?

It's highly over-rated! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif

I haven't ridden my T&S wheels in a long time. Still, those memories are firmly imprinted in my...rear end!

I guess some folks really can't feel a wheel give under even something like a town sign bunch gallup, much less honking out of the last turn of a regional crit and gassing it to the line in the biggest gear on the bike.

Hell, the guy that won the Senior Olympics road race came over the line cranking 42 MPH with the bike twisting under the effort.

The next topic for abuse will be: FSA Energy handlebars; Are they made from milk chocolate or cheddar cheese? The damn things flex like some moron scientist finally figured out how to alloy rubber into 6061T6 aluminum. My new DEDA bars are billet steel by comparison. Ah...to go back to the days of Cinelli Campione del Mundo!
 

dhk2

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Aug 8, 2006
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Originally Posted by KLabs .

Hi dhk2, does that mean alienator is wrong or CampyBob is wrong or are they both right or both wrong ???

Klabs, I'm thinking it could be an "apples or oranges" arguement. From a physics standpoint, believe I'd have to go with the Alienator......tying shouldn't increase the lateral stiffness. But, CB's been talking about ride quality, which I think could be something different from lateral stiffness. Frontal or radial stiffness might be increased by T&S, and all that tying and soldering adds weight, which might affect the perceived ride qualities too. In that case, they could both be right, but about different characteristics. Still, I have to agree with the article that "ride quality" mostly comes down to tires, pressures, tubes...that's been my experience.

Actually, I'm worried about my new wheels after finding them on the list CB posted from the article. DT RR 1450 rear has only 33N/mm stiffness, which the article concludes may be too wimpy for my 90kg. I haven't noticed any excessive flex, hitting of the brake pads or power loss on sprints, but then again I'm a few watts shy of that kilowatt output level they talked about.....
 

Eichers

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Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB .
... I haven't ridden my T&S wheels in a long time. Still, those memories are firmly imprinted in my...rear end!
Originally Posted by dhk2 .
Klabs, I'm thinking it could be an "apples or oranges" arguement. From a physics standpoint, believe I'd have to go with the Alienator......tying shouldn't increase the lateral stiffness. But, CB's been talking about ride quality, which I think could be something different from lateral stiffness. Frontal or radial stiffness might be increased by T&S, and all that tying and soldering adds weight, which might affect the perceived ride qualities too. In that case, they could both be right, but about different characteristics. Still, I have to agree with the article that "ride quality" mostly comes down to tires, pressures, tubes...that's been my experience.


Actually, I'm worried about my new wheels after finding them on the list CB posted from the article. DT RR 1450 rear has only 33N/mm stiffness, which the article concludes may be too wimpy for my 90kg. I haven't noticed any excessive flex, hitting of the brake pads or power loss on sprints, but then again I'm a few watts shy of that kilowatt output level they talked about.....
Hi dhk2, its quite interesting the front Radial spoking is being used quite alot, and even on the rear DS, which can't be T&S.
Also, they seem to have solved the issues by using higher spoke tension, due to supposedly better quality rim material/construction and spoke material/construction/layout.

Hi VeloWheels, if you don't mind me asking you, do you know why has Radial become so popular?

Hi CampyBob, memories have funny way of becoming rosy ... "like the good old times", we conveniently forget all the bad times that happened during those times good old times. But there are certainly good things to consider in amongst all that you are saying, such as, the virtual effect of increasing Hub diameter which effectively shortens spoke length and requires less spoke tension. Repairs are far more complicated/difficult though.


To clarify, I am not a wheel builder but I am considering building a set of wheels and I find the discussion interesting. Although when I was young I would true and repair my wheels myself, but the rear wheels did not have offset issue that they have today. It could all be done in the bike frame, at least that's how I did it.


Hope you don't mind but I would like to ask a couple of questions, re rear wheel build, and would love you all to comment:
  • Why is it so important to have the same spoke tension DS and NDS (of course this tends to happen naturally re front wheels).
  • Some comments I have read say that equal spoke tension is more important than wheel roundness ... would you agree?
  • I believe that this can be achieved by Radial DS/1 or 2 cross NDS, or 1 cross DS/2 cross NDS, or 1 or 2 cross DS/3 cross NDS.
  • There is a reasonably new technique called 2 DS/1 NDS, that is you use double the number on the DS to the NDS, but the spokes are tensioned differently, i believe

thanks
 

alfeng

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Jul 23, 2005
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Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB .

Ah...to go back to the days of Cinelli Campione del Mundo!
FYI. The classic Cinelli handlebars which have slightly over-sized ([COLOR= #808080]by[/COLOR] [COLOR= #808080]comparison to the norm of the time[/COLOR]), 26.2mm center sections can fit in more non-OS, threadless stems than you might imagine ...:

A Cinelli 65 with a tweaked RITCHEY stem:

A Cinelli 66 with a stock ITM stem:


That's just two examples ...

There ARE other stems which can accommodate a 26.2mm Cinelli center section.
 

Eichers

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Yes, I have that style of handle bar (very nice for sprinting) on my old 1930's Austral (Ozzie) steelie with a current 700 wheelset. Weighs just 9kgs as shown :)
But that's not what this thread is about ???. I think, I believe that it is about wheels and wheel building ... :)
 

CAMPYBOB

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Sep 12, 2005
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Nice old Olmo, Alf!

And the butterfly Brooks is a classic touch. Swallow? Or Modified? 1A was the last Cinelli stem style I used...no creaking...stiff as a board. I ran both 65 and 66 bends on the road and have both aluminum and steel track bends in 42 CM. Interesting that only recently did Cinelli drop their classic size/style track bend.

Bends 64 (Giro) and 65 (Criterium) are still catalogued, as is the old 1A stem. 63 used to be Giro and 64 was Campione IIRC. Weird. Track bars were offered in multiple bends...once upon a time.

Cinelli 2012 catalogue here: http://www.cinelli.it/pdf/catalogo_accessori_2012.pdf

Getting back to wheels...remember when Papa Cinelli built the Bi-Valent hubs? Any hub/wheel could be used as a front or rear wheel! The freewheel stayed on the bike. Shown here:
http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Italy/Cinelli/Cinelli_parts.htm

Deesh? Deeesh? We don' neeed no steenkin' deesh!

Klabs,

I build uneven tensioned rear wheels. This has never been a problem with either durability or roundness.

Any wheel that is not close to perfectly round or true is worthless to me. I do not notice the side-to-side tension differences. I guess I was always told the drive side carried more tension.

There are probably a half-dozen theories on evening tension and even more methods to do so. I never got involved, so am no expert. Back in the day, differing thicknesses of spokes were used (lighter on the left side) and folks played with spoking patterns. I stuck to the tried and true 36H 3X and 4X and 32H 3X.

For many years I built wheels without a tension gauge. They rolled as round and as long as the ones I built using a gauge. Of course, the human brain has absolutely NO ability to judge such critical details and I alway encourage folks to engage the services of a scientist when it comes to wheel building. Hell, hire two scientists. One for each wheel.
 

alfeng

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Jul 23, 2005
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Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB .

Nice old Olmo, Alf!
Thanks.

The Olmo is in about its fourth configuration of components ... and, much of the credit for the current iteration goes to ([COLOR= #808080]dare I say it?[/COLOR]) Campagnolo for making some aesthetically pleasing components.

Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB .

And the butterfly Brooks is a classic touch. Swallow? Or Modified?
It's a BROOKS B15 saddle which I modified ([COLOR= #808080]had to modify[/COLOR]) after I inadvertantly damaged the skirts ([COLOR= #808080]i.e., the perforation along the bottom edge made the skirts much more fragile than I realized[/COLOR]) ... fortunately, I had the design of the Brooks Swallow which I could use to "fix" the damage.


The OTHER saddle is a LYCETT SWALLOW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB .


Bends 64 (Giro) and 65 (Criterium) are still catalogued, as is the old 1A stem. 63 used to be Giro and 64 was Campione IIRC. Weird. Track bars were offered in multiple bends...once upon a time.


I've got a 63 ([COLOR= #808080]stamped as such, so sometime post-1980[/COLOR]) whose bend is similar to a 66 ... I'll have to see what "name" it was given.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB .


Getting back to wheels...remember when Papa Cinelli built the Bi-Valent hubs? Any hub/wheel could be used as a front or rear wheel! The freewheel stayed on the bike. Shown here:
http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Italy/Cinelli/Cinelli_parts.htm

Deesh? Deeesh? We don' neeed no steenkin' deesh!


Those Bi-Valent wheels are new-to-me ... I like it!
 

CAMPYBOB

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Sep 12, 2005
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I remember seeing my first set of Bi-Valent wheels being installed on a bike back about 1974. I forget the frame, but memory wants to say it was a Bottecchia. The freewheel was still on the bike as the owner pulled it off a roof rack.

The fellow was nice enough to give me an explanation of the concept and I don't believe in following years I've seen a second set!

It thought you might have modified a saddle. I wasn't certain if you could get a Swallow with saddlebag rings.

Now my memory is piqued regarding cinelli's handlebar numbering system. I'll have to go look at some of my old bikes for a refresher! The oldest will be on my 1974 Paramount...I'll guess it was delivered with Campiones.

Those old Bi-Valents should get Klabs the even spoke tension on the rear he desires!