aero vs traditional brake levers

[* * Chas]

"David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 14:43:04 -0500, Matt O'Toole wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:27:03 +0000, jtaylor wrote:
> >
> >> If you hit a big bump or pothole and you are on the hoods, the
> >> traditional arrangement may well keep your hands on the hoods,
while
> >> the new-fangled types will allow them to come off - and make it
more
> >> likely that you will lose control and come off as well.
> >
> > Nonsense. Even without the cable there, the modern ones have a
better
> > shape that's easier to hold on to. In practice this just doesn't
happen.
> > If it did we'd hear about it.
>
> Obviously the previous responder never really used non-aero brake
levers.
> It is more common to bump into the cable with your hand when you hit a
> pothole, which can cause you to move the bars without meaning to. Not
a
> good idea. There is no way exposed cables are safer.
>
> --
>
> David L. Johnson

I've been riding bikes with dropped HBs since 1964 and never once do I
recall brake cables getting in my way or even bumping into them.

I have very wide hands - XXL gloves. I ride on the horns most of the
time.

I put together 2 retro nags' this past summer. I used aero levers on
both of them because the horns on the levers I used were bigger than
those on most non aero levers.

I use downtube shifters so shifting is not an issue. Aside from the horn
sizes, IMO aero levers are just vanity items. There is nothing more
elegant than the graceful arch of twin brake cables coming out of the
brake levers.

Chas. Retro Grouch - I refuse to wear pink lycra!

 

[Mike]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> > And any disadvantages?
>
> It's harder to carry French bread with aero levers. But it's easier to
> carry shopping bags.
>
If you carry a couple of rubber bands - aero levers are better for french bread.

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

Mike wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> > > And any disadvantages?
> >
> > It's harder to carry French bread with aero levers. But it's easier to
> > carry shopping bags.
> >
> If you carry a couple of rubber bands - aero levers are better for french bread.

As long as the baguette arrives home warm and fresh...either way.

But I do think the baguettes are happier riding home on my ca. 1974
Motobecane. Vive la France.

 

[* * Chas]

"Mike" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> > > And any disadvantages?
> >
> > It's harder to carry French bread with aero levers. But it's easier
to
> > carry shopping bags.
> >
> If you carry a couple of rubber bands - aero levers are better for
french bread.

Baguettes! Si vous ple...

Chas.

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 19:06:44 GMT, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:

> However, on the aero lever-dual pivot
>caliper brakes, I do not like the higher mechanical
>advantage, for some reason. Cannot explain it; perhaps
>too set in my ways. Hauling on the old single pivot
>calipers seems right

You can mix aero levers with older, lightly sprung, single pivots.

--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 14:02:41 -0800, "* * Chas"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Aside from the horn
>sizes, IMO aero levers are just vanity items. There is nothing more
>elegant than the graceful arch of twin brake cables coming out of the
>brake levers.

I've got to laugh at this. You call the thing you don't as much a
vanity item, and then talk about the appearance of the other item.

So you've got it backwards -- for you exposed cables are the vanity
item.

--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

 

[Michael Press]

In article
<[email protected]>,
John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
wrote:

> On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 19:06:44 GMT, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > However, on the aero lever-dual pivot
> >caliper brakes, I do not like the higher mechanical
> >advantage, for some reason. Cannot explain it; perhaps
> >too set in my ways. Hauling on the old single pivot
> >calipers seems right
>
> You can mix aero levers with older, lightly sprung, single pivots.

Thanks. I may do this.

--
Michael Press

 

[David L. Johnson]

On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 14:02:41 -0800, * * Chas wrote:

> I use downtube shifters so shifting is not an issue. Aside from the horn
> sizes, IMO aero levers are just vanity items. There is nothing more
> elegant than the graceful arch of twin brake cables coming out of the
> brake levers.

Chaq'on a son gout, I suppose. But I do remember accidentally hitting
brake cables with my hands, and regretting it, so am happy to not have to
deal with that any longer.

What I can't get is why you'd bother with "aero" brake levers that are
also STI shifters. I mean, what is so "aero" about hiding the brake
lever while you expose the shifter lever?


>
> Chas. Retro Grouch - I refuse to wear pink lycra!

I'll second that part.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | It is a scientifically proven fact that a mid life crisis can
_`\(,_ | only be cured by something racy and Italian. Bianchis and
(_)/ (_) | Colnagos are a lot cheaper than Maserattis and Ferraris. --
Glenn Davies

 

[* * Chas]

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 14:02:41 -0800, "* * Chas"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Aside from the horn
> >sizes, IMO aero levers are just vanity items. There is nothing more
> >elegant than the graceful arch of twin brake cables coming out of the
> >brake levers.
>
> I've got to laugh at this. You call the thing you don't as much a
> vanity item, and then talk about the appearance of the other item.
>
> So you've got it backwards -- for you exposed cables are the vanity
> item.
>
> --
> JT

The graceful flowing lines are a thing of beauty... At least on my well
trimmed bikes. ;-)

Chas. Retro Grouch

 

[Jay Beattie]

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 19:06:44 GMT, Michael Press <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
> > However, on the aero lever-dual pivot
> >caliper brakes, I do not like the higher mechanical
> >advantage, for some reason. Cannot explain it; perhaps
> >too set in my ways. Hauling on the old single pivot
> >calipers seems right
>
> You can mix aero levers with older, lightly sprung, single
pivots.

You can mix aero with 1970s Campy NR if you like. I did that for
a long time, and it worked fine -- and I don't recall my hands
getting fatigued from braking. I prefer dual pivots and
eventually dumped that set up when the frame broke (I needed a
long reach caliper and had some old NRs sitting around). -- Jay
Beattie.

 

[Vee]

[email protected] wrote:
> On 14 Nov 2006 08:03:14 -0800, "Vee" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >[email protected] wrote:
> >> On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 10:52:25 +0000, Tony Sweeney
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Are there any advantages to aero brake levers (with the cable routed
> >> >under the bar tape) over 'old fashioned' levers? Apart from being more
> >> >choice and more easily available currently.
> >> >
> >> >And any disadvantages? I can think of a couple: -
> >> >
> >> >You have to undo or replace bar tape when you want to replace the cable
> >> >outer. You might have to undo the front brake cable from the caliper to
> >> >lift a quill stem out.
> >> >
> >>
> >> If you hit a big bump or pothole and you are on the hoods, the
> >> traditional arrangement may well keep your hands on the hoods, while
> >> the new-fangled types will allow them to come off - and make it more
> >> likely that you will lose control and come off as well.
> >
> >I don't understand. Are you saying that the run of housing on old
> >fashioned hoods keeps your hands in place?
>
> Yes.
>
> > Are you serious?
>
> Yes.
>
> > Is there
> >some other difference between aero and non-aero hoods that I'm missing?
> >
>
> Given your questions above, quite possibly.

Sorry if my rhetorical pothole threw you off. Here's my question,
phrased as literally as possible: how are traditional brake levers
safer than aero levers when the rider hits a bump?

-Vee

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

Vee wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > On 14 Nov 2006 08:03:14 -0800, "Vee" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >[email protected] wrote:
> > >> On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 10:52:25 +0000, Tony Sweeney
> > >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >Are there any advantages to aero brake levers (with the cable routed
> > >> >under the bar tape) over 'old fashioned' levers? Apart from being more
> > >> >choice and more easily available currently.
> > >> >
> > >> >And any disadvantages? I can think of a couple: -
> > >> >
> > >> >You have to undo or replace bar tape when you want to replace the cable
> > >> >outer. You might have to undo the front brake cable from the caliper to
> > >> >lift a quill stem out.
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> If you hit a big bump or pothole and you are on the hoods, the
> > >> traditional arrangement may well keep your hands on the hoods, while
> > >> the new-fangled types will allow them to come off - and make it more
> > >> likely that you will lose control and come off as well.
> > >
> > >I don't understand. Are you saying that the run of housing on old
> > >fashioned hoods keeps your hands in place?
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> > > Are you serious?
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> > > Is there
> > >some other difference between aero and non-aero hoods that I'm missing?
> > >
> >
> > Given your questions above, quite possibly.
>
> Sorry if my rhetorical pothole threw you off. Here's my question,
> phrased as literally as possible: how are traditional brake levers
> safer than aero levers when the rider hits a bump?
>

Simple answer: they are not safer.

Now, realize that in "jtaylor" you are dealing with an entity that
maintains that wearing a simple bicycle helmet makes it *more* likely
you will have a brain injury.

IOW, you are dealing with a nutball. Good luck.

 

[[email protected]]

[email protected] wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 06:42:13 -0500, John Forrest Tomlinson
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Not a function of their "aero" nature, but most or all modern aero
> >levers are made with springs in them that assist the brake return and
> >allow a lighter spring at the caliper. The result is a lighter feel.
>
> At the cost of a greater effort required to actually USE the brakes -
> leading to a diminished total braking force available.

Not so.

The return springs at the caliper can be much lighter when there's also
a return spring at the lever, and the total spring force that the hand
must overcome is less than the old style.

Here's why.

As the inner cable goes around a bend, must scrape the inside surface
of the housing. This causes friction, of course. In that situation,
the amount of friction is related to the cable tension. The harder you
pull on the other end of the cable, the greater the friction that must
be overcome. That is, any resistance at the far end is actually
amplified.

Old style caliper return springs must be strong enough to drag the
cable around those bends and pull the lever upward with it. Due to
that "amplification," that takes a pretty strong spring. But if
there's only a tiny spring in the lever, it takes zero cable tension to
drag the lever up. With zero tension on the far end, the caliper has
to pull much less strongly. It can get by with much weaker caliper
springs.

When time comes for you to squeeze the brakes, you fight a lever spring
that's barely there, and a much weaker caliper spring. It's a net
win.

If you want a theoretical explanation for this, look into the
relationship of a rope passing around a curved friction surface. The
tension ratio between the high tension side and low tension side is:
T1/T2 = e^(mu*theta) where e is the base of natural logs, mu is the
coefficient of friction, and theta is the angle of curvature. The
right hand side is bigger than one, so if you decrease T2 by a small
amount (using a tiny spring) you decrease T1 by a larger amount.

http://em-ntserver.unl.edu/Mechanics-Pages/Luebbe/staticsmain.html has
some of the math, applying it to a completely different problem.

- Frank Krygowski

 

[Johnny Sunset]

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> Vee wrote:
> > [email protected] wrote:
> > > On 14 Nov 2006 08:03:14 -0800, "Vee" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >[email protected] wrote:
> > > >> On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 10:52:25 +0000, Tony Sweeney
> > > >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> >Are there any advantages to aero brake levers (with the cable routed
> > > >> >under the bar tape) over 'old fashioned' levers? Apart from being more
> > > >> >choice and more easily available currently.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >And any disadvantages? I can think of a couple: -
> > > >> >
> > > >> >You have to undo or replace bar tape when you want to replace the cable
> > > >> >outer. You might have to undo the front brake cable from the caliper to
> > > >> >lift a quill stem out.
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >> If you hit a big bump or pothole and you are on the hoods, the
> > > >> traditional arrangement may well keep your hands on the hoods, while
> > > >> the new-fangled types will allow them to come off - and make it more
> > > >> likely that you will lose control and come off as well.
> > > >
> > > >I don't understand. Are you saying that the run of housing on old
> > > >fashioned hoods keeps your hands in place?
> > >
> > > Yes.
> > >
> > > > Are you serious?
> > >
> > > Yes.
> > >
> > > > Is there
> > > >some other difference between aero and non-aero hoods that I'm missing?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Given your questions above, quite possibly.
> >
> > Sorry if my rhetorical pothole threw you off. Here's my question,
> > phrased as literally as possible: how are traditional brake levers
> > safer than aero levers when the rider hits a bump?
> >
>
> Simple answer: they are not safer.
>
> Now, realize that in "jtaylor" you are dealing with an entity that
> maintains that wearing a simple bicycle helmet makes it *more* likely
> you will have a brain injury.
>
> IOW, you are dealing with a nutball. Good luck.

Readers of rec.bicycles.tech:

Since there is a theoretical possibility that bicycle helmets MIGHT
increase rotational brain injuries and also the possibility that motor
vehicle operators MIGHT change their behavior depending on whether or
not the cyclist(s) in their vicinity are wearing helmets, the
contention of J. Taylor is at least worth further consideration.

--
Tom Sherman - Post Free or Die!

 

[Johnny Sunset]

landotter wrote:
> ...
> You can flip the bike upside down for roadside repair w/o bending the
> cables....

Beware the wrath of Herr Brandt!

See <http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/upside-down.html>.

--
Tom Sherman - Post Free or Die!

 

[Michael Press]

In article
<[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> [email protected] wrote:
> > On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 06:42:13 -0500, John Forrest Tomlinson
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >Not a function of their "aero" nature, but most or all modern aero
> > >levers are made with springs in them that assist the brake return and
> > >allow a lighter spring at the caliper. The result is a lighter feel.
> >
> > At the cost of a greater effort required to actually USE the brakes -
> > leading to a diminished total braking force available.
>
> Not so.
>
> The return springs at the caliper can be much lighter when there's also
> a return spring at the lever, and the total spring force that the hand
> must overcome is less than the old style.
>
> Here's why.
>
> As the inner cable goes around a bend, must scrape the inside surface
> of the housing. This causes friction, of course. In that situation,
> the amount of friction is related to the cable tension. The harder you
> pull on the other end of the cable, the greater the friction that must
> be overcome. That is, any resistance at the far end is actually
> amplified.
>
> Old style caliper return springs must be strong enough to drag the
> cable around those bends and pull the lever upward with it. Due to
> that "amplification," that takes a pretty strong spring. But if
> there's only a tiny spring in the lever, it takes zero cable tension to
> drag the lever up. With zero tension on the far end, the caliper has
> to pull much less strongly. It can get by with much weaker caliper
> springs.
>
> When time comes for you to squeeze the brakes, you fight a lever spring
> that's barely there, and a much weaker caliper spring. It's a net
> win.
>
> If you want a theoretical explanation for this, look into the
> relationship of a rope passing around a curved friction surface. The
> tension ratio between the high tension side and low tension side is:
> T1/T2 = e^(mu*theta) where e is the base of natural logs, mu is the
> coefficient of friction, and theta is the angle of curvature. The
> right hand side is bigger than one, so if you decrease T2 by a small
> amount (using a tiny spring) you decrease T1 by a larger amount.
>
> http://em-ntserver.unl.edu/Mechanics-Pages/Luebbe/staticsmain.html has
> some of the math, applying it to a completely different problem.

A line wrapped around a cylinder resists motion
parallel to its lenght from friction. The amount of
resistance increases exponentially with the angle. This
is why windlasses work, and why cable housing bend is
so critical.

Suppose a taut line grazes a cylinder, its direction
changing by delta a. Denote by n be the coefficient
of friction, and by T the tension. The frictional
force resisting the movement of the line along its
length produces a change in the tension:
delta T = 2Tn sin (delta a/2) ~ Tn delta a.
Integrating this over a finite angle gives
T_2 - T_1 = exp(n a).

--
Michael Press

 

[* * Chas]

"David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 14:02:41 -0800, * * Chas wrote:
>
> > I use downtube shifters so shifting is not an issue. Aside from the
horn
> > sizes, IMO aero levers are just vanity items. There is nothing more
> > elegant than the graceful arch of twin brake cables coming out of
the
> > brake levers.
>
> Chaq'on a son gout, I suppose. But I do remember accidentally hitting
> brake cables with my hands, and regretting it, so am happy to not have
to
> deal with that any longer.

"They are "bigger, sexier, more phly debian..." ;-)

> What I can't get is why you'd bother with "aero" brake levers that are
> also STI shifters. I mean, what is so "aero" about hiding the brake
> lever while you expose the shifter lever?
>

They aren't STI. All of my bikes are retro. I only have index shifters
on my 2 MTBs and my latest 1988 nag with a - get this - 7 speed casette!
The Suntour 6 speed downtube shift levers make the 7 speed a thing of
joy! The rest of my road bikes have 5 or 6 sprocket freewheels. Friction
shifting is part of the manly art of cycling! ;-)

I'm using the aero brake levers because I have wide front paws and the
horns are on the aeros are bigger than most external cable housing
levers.

> >
> > Chas. Retro Grouch - I refuse to wear pink lycra!
>
> I'll second that part.
>
> --
>
> David L. Johnson
>
> __o | It is a scientifically proven fact that a mid life crisis
can
> _`\(,_ | only be cured by something racy and Italian. Bianchis and
> (_)/ (_) | Colnagos are a lot cheaper than Maserattis and
erraris. --
> Glenn Davies

Agreed, that's why I've acquired 3 retro nags over the past 6 months!

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

JBAFromNY wrote:
> Tony Sweeney wrote:
>
> > Are there any advantages to aero brake levers (with the cable routed
> > under the bar tape) over 'old fashioned' levers? Apart from being more
> > choice and more easily available currently.
> >
> > And any disadvantages? I can think of a couple: -
> >
> > You have to undo or replace bar tape when you want to replace the cable
> > outer.
>
> In practice, I don't think this is a problem -- I replace bar wraps
> once or twice a year; In the fifteen years I've owned my current bike,
> I think I've replaced the brake cable housing twice.
>
> >You might have to undo the front brake cable from the caliper to
> > lift a quill stem out.
>
> I've not had to do that.
>
> >
> > Not big problems I know, but problems that would make non-aero levers a
> > better choice if there are no advantages with aero levers.
>
> Return springs aside, I think there are advantages. With non-aero
> bars, the cables get caught on stuff, and generally get in the way.
> They're also more liable to getting mangled when the bike gets put in
> the trunk of a car. For a while, I had two bikes, one aero, one non-.
> Every time I rode the non-, I remember thinking, "gee, these things are
> a real PITA", and being very happy to get back to the aero levers.
>
> John

Called 'banana cutters' for a reason...

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

Johnny Sunset wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > Vee wrote:
> > > [email protected] wrote:
> > > > On 14 Nov 2006 08:03:14 -0800, "Vee" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >[email protected] wrote:
> > > > >> On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 10:52:25 +0000, Tony Sweeney
> > > > >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >Are there any advantages to aero brake levers (with the cable routed
> > > > >> >under the bar tape) over 'old fashioned' levers? Apart from being more
> > > > >> >choice and more easily available currently.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >And any disadvantages? I can think of a couple: -
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >You have to undo or replace bar tape when you want to replace the cable
> > > > >> >outer. You might have to undo the front brake cable from the caliper to
> > > > >> >lift a quill stem out.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >>
> > > > >> If you hit a big bump or pothole and you are on the hoods, the
> > > > >> traditional arrangement may well keep your hands on the hoods, while
> > > > >> the new-fangled types will allow them to come off - and make it more
> > > > >> likely that you will lose control and come off as well.
> > > > >
> > > > >I don't understand. Are you saying that the run of housing on old
> > > > >fashioned hoods keeps your hands in place?
> > > >
> > > > Yes.
> > > >
> > > > > Are you serious?
> > > >
> > > > Yes.
> > > >
> > > > > Is there
> > > > >some other difference between aero and non-aero hoods that I'm missing?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Given your questions above, quite possibly.
> > >
> > > Sorry if my rhetorical pothole threw you off. Here's my question,
> > > phrased as literally as possible: how are traditional brake levers
> > > safer than aero levers when the rider hits a bump?
> > >
> >
> > Simple answer: they are not safer.
> >
> > Now, realize that in "jtaylor" you are dealing with an entity that
> > maintains that wearing a simple bicycle helmet makes it *more* likely
> > you will have a brain injury.
> >
> > IOW, you are dealing with a nutball. Good luck.
>
> Readers of rec.bicycles.tech:
>
> Since there is a theoretical possibility that bicycle helmets MIGHT
> increase rotational brain injuries and also the possibility that motor
> vehicle operators MIGHT change their behavior depending on whether or
> not the cyclist(s) in their vicinity are wearing helmets, the
> contention of J. Taylor is at least worth further consideration.
>

Yeah, and some[1] would say there is a theoretical possibility that
wearing a bicycle helmet MIGHT increase the chance of getting struck by
lightening. Will you give that consideration, too?

[1] "Some" nutball, "somewhere" in the world.

 

[Solvang Cyclist]

[email protected] wrote in news:1163563762.603641.101100
@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com:

> The return springs at the caliper can be much lighter when there's also
> a return spring at the lever, and the total spring force that the hand
> must overcome is less than the old style.
>
> Here's why.
>

Also, the local return spring in the lever allows it to "pull" the cable to
return it to the open position. Isn't this a major contributing factor in
reducing the overall forces needed?

Although I don't know how to calculate the difference, intuitively, pulling
on a wire requires far less force than pushing it.

Cheers,
David