aero vs traditional brake levers




> > >I don't understand. Are you saying that the run of housing on old
> > >fashioned hoods keeps your hands in place?

>


Here's how it works, or at least how it worked for me once: riding
along with head in clouds. Old style Campy Super Record gruppo - this
was about 1985. Ran straight into pothole, hands bounced off the
hoods, but I was able to grab the cables and get control of the bike.
"Grab the cables" might be a bit of an overstatement - my hands kind of
landed on them after leaving the hoods, but at any rate I was able to
get the bike back upright. Scared the **** out of me, though.

Mort
 
mort wrote:
> > > >I don't understand. Are you saying that the run of housing on old
> > > >fashioned hoods keeps your hands in place?

> >

>
> Here's how it works, or at least how it worked for me once: riding
> along with head in clouds. Old style Campy Super Record gruppo - this
> was about 1985. Ran straight into pothole, hands bounced off the
> hoods, but I was able to grab the cables and get control of the bike.
> "Grab the cables" might be a bit of an overstatement - my hands kind of
> landed on them after leaving the hoods, but at any rate I was able to
> get the bike back upright. Scared the **** out of me, though.


Your cables obviously saved your life!

That's proof enough for me! _Everybody_ should use exposed cables each
and every time they ride. It's just common sense! Why, only a fool
would ride aero.

And what of those parents letting their children ride with only coaster
brakes, with nothing at all to keep the hands on the handlebars should
they slip forward? Child abuse, that's what it is! Where is Safe Kids
Inc. when you need it?

But of course, I'm not really in favor of mandatory cable laws. At
least, not for adults. Let Darwin do his thing, I say. Just don't
make me pay for your hospital bills yada yada yada...

;-)

- Frank Krygowski
 
On 15 Nov 2006 06:25:53 -0800, "Ozark Bicycle"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Yeah, and some[1] would say there is a theoretical possibility that
>wearing a bicycle helmet MIGHT increase the chance of getting struck by
>lightening. Will you give that consideration, too?


It's fine to talk out of speculation -- this discusson of safety of
aero versus traditional levers is that sort of thing. No one has
offered evidence, so we're speculating.

On the helmet thing you offered nearly zero evidence -- just
speculation. And deride people who offer real evidence. That's lame.
--
JT
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On 15 Nov 2006 08:05:15 -0800, "Vee" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Johnny Sunset wrote:
>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>> > Vee wrote:
>> > > [email protected] wrote:
>> > > > On 14 Nov 2006 08:03:14 -0800, "Vee" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >[email protected] wrote:
>> > > > >> On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 10:52:25 +0000, Tony Sweeney
>> > > > >> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> >Are there any advantages to aero brake levers (with the cable routed
>> > > > >> >under the bar tape) over 'old fashioned' levers? Apart from being more
>> > > > >> >choice and more easily available currently.
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> >And any disadvantages? I can think of a couple: -
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> >You have to undo or replace bar tape when you want to replace the cable
>> > > > >> >outer. You might have to undo the front brake cable from the caliper to
>> > > > >> >lift a quill stem out.
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> If you hit a big bump or pothole and you are on the hoods, the
>> > > > >> traditional arrangement may well keep your hands on the hoods, while
>> > > > >> the new-fangled types will allow them to come off - and make it more
>> > > > >> likely that you will lose control and come off as well.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >I don't understand. Are you saying that the run of housing on old
>> > > > >fashioned hoods keeps your hands in place?
>> > > >
>> > > > Yes.
>> > > >
>> > > > > Are you serious?
>> > > >
>> > > > Yes.
>> > > >
>> > > > > Is there
>> > > > >some other difference between aero and non-aero hoods that I'm missing?
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Given your questions above, quite possibly.
>> > >
>> > > Sorry if my rhetorical pothole threw you off. Here's my question,
>> > > phrased as literally as possible: how are traditional brake levers
>> > > safer than aero levers when the rider hits a bump?
>> > >
>> >
>> > Simple answer: they are not safer.
>> >
>> > Now, realize that in "jtaylor" you are dealing with an entity that
>> > maintains that wearing a simple bicycle helmet makes it *more* likely
>> > you will have a brain injury.
>> >
>> > IOW, you are dealing with a nutball. Good luck.

>>
>> Readers of rec.bicycles.tech:
>>
>> Since there is a theoretical possibility that bicycle helmets MIGHT
>> increase rotational brain injuries and also the possibility that motor
>> vehicle operators MIGHT change their behavior depending on whether or
>> not the cyclist(s) in their vicinity are wearing helmets, the
>> contention of J. Taylor is at least worth further consideration.
>>
>> --
>> Tom Sherman - Post Free or Die!

>
>Further consideration? What do you call the tens of thousands of
>helmet posts that have smothered this group over the past few years?
>Do you want to repeat the past? Kill this group anew? I know you're
>just responding to Ozark's dismissive comment, but it's pointless.
>Nobody's mind can be changed at present.


I used to always wear a helmet and thought that was important to
safety. Reading in RBR (which poined me to more information) helped
me think about it more carefully and change my mind.

This is a good thing to read --
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/web/public.nsf/Documents/maxi-faq-helmets?OpenDocument
--
JT
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On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 18:24:14 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>The first time I experienced this was some decades before "aero"
>levers were manufactured, on a dirt road that had mysteriously crept
>into my touring route. The bike was loaded front, middle, bars, and
>rear with gear and if my hand had not been caught by the cable 'twixt
>thumb and forefinger I would have come off, in a situation where there
>was very little flat ground aside from the road.
>
>This has happened more than once. I suppose that many younger riders
>have not ridden with these levers, and so have not experienced being
>saved by the cable. They just fell off, and they don't even know that
>they might not have.


It might depend on how you ride, and how much weight is on your hands.
My weight is pretty far back when I ride, and my lower back is pretty
strong, and a few months ago I hit a large object while riding at
night and both my hands came off the bars. It was scary, but I didn't
fall. I think I would have been *more* likely to fall if one hand had
hit a cable and the other hadn't -- it would have jerked the bars.

As it was I hit my chest on the stem and was quite disturbed, but
didn't crash.

--
JT
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On 15 Nov 2006 19:01:33 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

>
>mort wrote:
>> > > >I don't understand. Are you saying that the run of housing on old
>> > > >fashioned hoods keeps your hands in place?
>> >

>>
>> Here's how it works, or at least how it worked for me once: riding
>> along with head in clouds. Old style Campy Super Record gruppo - this
>> was about 1985. Ran straight into pothole, hands bounced off the
>> hoods, but I was able to grab the cables and get control of the bike.
>> "Grab the cables" might be a bit of an overstatement - my hands kind of
>> landed on them after leaving the hoods, but at any rate I was able to
>> get the bike back upright. Scared the **** out of me, though.

>
>Your cables obviously saved your life!
>
>That's proof enough for me! _Everybody_ should use exposed cables each
>and every time they ride. It's just common sense! Why, only a fool
>would ride aero.
>
>And what of those parents letting their children ride with only coaster
>brakes, with nothing at all to keep the hands on the handlebars should
>they slip forward? Child abuse, that's what it is! Where is Safe Kids
>Inc. when you need it?
>
>But of course, I'm not really in favor of mandatory cable laws. At
>least, not for adults. Let Darwin do his thing, I say. Just don't
>make me pay for your hospital bills yada yada yada...
>
>;-)
>
>- Frank Krygowski


Dear Frank,

The safety feature that you so rightly praise has been embraced by
Sheldon Brown in the name of suffering humanity:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/surly-rohloff/index.html

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/surly-rohloff/images/5-frontleft.jpg

Should the rider lose his grip on the lower aero drop bars, he can
****** at the exposed cables above them or even seize the upper flat
bars as his paws fly skyward.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
 
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On 15 Nov 2006 06:25:53 -0800, "Ozark Bicycle"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Yeah, and some[1] would say there is a theoretical possibility that
> >wearing a bicycle helmet MIGHT increase the chance of getting struck by
> >lightening. Will you give that consideration, too?

>
> It's fine to talk out of speculation -- this discusson of safety of
> aero versus traditional levers is that sort of thing. No one has
> offered evidence, so we're speculating.
>
> On the helmet thing you offered nearly zero evidence -- just
> speculation. And deride people who offer real evidence. That's lame.


How does a 2 digit IQ bozo like you get to decide what's OK and what's
"lame'?
 
In article
<[email protected]>
,
[email protected] wrote:

> mort wrote:
> > > > >I don't understand. Are you saying that the run of housing on old
> > > > >fashioned hoods keeps your hands in place?
> > >

> >
> > Here's how it works, or at least how it worked for me once: riding
> > along with head in clouds. Old style Campy Super Record gruppo - this
> > was about 1985. Ran straight into pothole, hands bounced off the
> > hoods, but I was able to grab the cables and get control of the bike.
> > "Grab the cables" might be a bit of an overstatement - my hands kind of
> > landed on them after leaving the hoods, but at any rate I was able to
> > get the bike back upright. Scared the **** out of me, though.

>
> Your cables obviously saved your life!
>
> That's proof enough for me! _Everybody_ should use exposed cables each
> and every time they ride. It's just common sense! Why, only a fool
> would ride aero.
>
> And what of those parents letting their children ride with only coaster
> brakes, with nothing at all to keep the hands on the handlebars should
> they slip forward? Child abuse, that's what it is! Where is Safe Kids
> Inc. when you need it?
>
> But of course, I'm not really in favor of mandatory cable laws. At
> least, not for adults. Let Darwin do his thing, I say. Just don't
> make me pay for your hospital bills yada yada yada...


Use the attachments used to clip mittens to parka.

--
Michael Press
 
On 15 Nov 2006 16:17:56 -0800, "Johnny Sunset"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Vee wrote:
>> Nobody's mind can be changed at present.

>
>Even if they suffer a head injury while wearing/not wearing a helmet?


Evidently not, or the administration would have had transplant crews
hard at work installing cloned neobot brains, in rooms just off of the
admitting areas of ERs all across the country....hmmm.

>> In fact, it's even pointless
>> to talk about talking about helmets, since that's been done to death,
>> too. (Recall the "helmet nazi" posts.) The best we can do is pretend
>> we don't hear people when they use the h-word. Exactly like I haven't
>> done here.

>
>I think I see a few bone fragments and tufts of hair from the deceased
>equine.


Then clearly you cannot stop flogging the dead horse in front of
*you*.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
 
On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 10:52:25 +0000, Tony Sweeney
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Are there any advantages to aero brake levers (with the cable routed
>under the bar tape) over 'old fashioned' levers? Apart from being more
>choice and more easily available currently.


Opinions vary; I like them in comparison to the old-style ones that
had no secondary levers, because I find that riding on the hoods gives
me just enough of a grip on the levers to be able to stop fairly
reliably. OTOH, I was one of the few people who seemed to be able to
adjust the old-style secondary levers so that they worked well, and I
liked those, too. On the gripping hand, aero levers can be set up to
provide this with the addition of a set of inlines on the tops, and
those work quite well too. On the othercubed hand, flat bars are a
damned sight easier to deal with for a trip to the grocery store, so
who cares about aero levers anyway?

>And any disadvantages? I can think of a couple: -
>
>You have to undo or replace bar tape when you want to replace the cable
>outer.


I tear up bar tape more often than I frag a cable housing; when I'm
replacing the tape, if the housing and cable look like they've started
to deteriorate, I just replace them. Cables are cheaper than good bar
tape.

>You might have to undo the front brake cable from the caliper to
>lift a quill stem out.


Big deal.

>Not big problems I know, but problems that would make non-aero levers a
>better choice if there are no advantages with aero levers.
>
>All irrelevant if you are using ero/sti of course.


ITYM ergo. (But if you know where to get ero levers, I suspect I know
some riders who'd want to try them out.)
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
 
On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 05:10:24 GMT, Werehatrack
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 10:52:25 +0000, Tony Sweeney
><[email protected]> wrote:

[snip]

>>All irrelevant if you are using ero/sti of course.

>
>ITYM ergo. (But if you know where to get ero levers, I suspect I know
>some riders who'd want to try them out.)


Dear Werehatrack,

Er . . .

Ero levers are thought to be descended from ergo levers in an
arrow-straight line as ero-volution produced a more aero version for a
few more euros.

Ergo, the ergo levers are the Ur-ero levers.

Ch-eros,

Carl Fogel
 
"Johnny Sunset" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

<snip>

> I think I see a few bone fragments and tufts of hair from the deceased
> equine.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Post Free or Die!


Subject: riding a dead horse strategies.

Dakota tribal wisdom says that when you discover you are riding a dead
horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

In business, however, it seems that we often try other strategies
with dead horses, including the following:

1. Buying a stronger whip.
2. Changing riders.
3. Saying things like "This is the way we always have ridden this
horse."
4. Appointing a committee to study the horse.
5. Arranging to visit other sites to see how they ride dead horses.
6. Increasing the standards to ride dead horses.
7. Appointing a tiger team to revive the dead horse.
8. Creating a training session to increase our riding ability.
9. Comparing the state of dead horses in today's environment.
10. Change the requirements declaring that "This horse is not dead."
11. Hire contractors to ride the dead horse.
12. Harnessing several dead horses together for increased speed.
13. Declaring that "No horse is too dead to beat."
14. Providing additional funding to increase the horse's performance.
15. Do a CA Study to see if contractors can ride it cheaper.
16. Purchase a product to make dead horses run faster.
17. Declare the horse is "better, faster and cheaper" dead.
18. Form a quality circle to find uses for dead horses.
19. Revisit the performance requirements for horses.
20. Say this horse was procured with cost as an independent variable.
21. Promote the dead horse to a supervisory position.

Chas.
 
[email protected] wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 05:10:24 GMT, Werehatrack
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 10:52:25 +0000, Tony Sweeney
> ><[email protected]> wrote:

> [snip]
>
> >>All irrelevant if you are using ero/sti of course.

> >
> >ITYM ergo. (But if you know where to get ero levers, I suspect I know
> >some riders who'd want to try them out.)

>
> Dear Werehatrack,
>
> Er . . .
>
> Ero levers are thought to be descended from ergo levers in an
> arrow-straight line as ero-volution produced a more aero version for a
> few more euros.
>
> Ergo, the ergo levers are the Ur-ero levers.
>
> Ch-eros,


Urg

Oh

;-)
 
On 15 Nov 2006 19:58:06 -0800, "Ozark Bicycle"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> On 15 Nov 2006 06:25:53 -0800, "Ozark Bicycle"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >Yeah, and some[1] would say there is a theoretical possibility that
>> >wearing a bicycle helmet MIGHT increase the chance of getting struck by
>> >lightening. Will you give that consideration, too?

>>
>> It's fine to talk out of speculation -- this discusson of safety of
>> aero versus traditional levers is that sort of thing. No one has
>> offered evidence, so we're speculating.
>>
>> On the helmet thing you offered nearly zero evidence -- just
>> speculation. And deride people who offer real evidence. That's lame.

>
>How does a 2 digit IQ bozo like you get to decide what's OK and what's
>"lame'?

I'm not sure about my IQ, but I look at the sources of information.
In the absense of real evidence, I speculate. When one side presents
realy evidence or broader based evidence or more rigorously obtain
evidence, I take that are more likely to be right than mere
speculation. That's how to judge information. To judge it in any
other way is, well, lame.
--
JT
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On 15 Nov 2006 19:58:06 -0800, "Ozark Bicycle"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> On 15 Nov 2006 06:25:53 -0800, "Ozark Bicycle"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >Yeah, and some[1] would say there is a theoretical possibility that
>> >wearing a bicycle helmet MIGHT increase the chance of getting struck by
>> >lightening. Will you give that consideration, too?

>>
>> It's fine to talk out of speculation -- this discusson of safety of
>> aero versus traditional levers is that sort of thing. No one has
>> offered evidence, so we're speculating.
>>
>> On the helmet thing you offered nearly zero evidence -- just
>> speculation. And deride people who offer real evidence. That's lame.

>
>How does a 2 digit IQ bozo like you get to decide what's OK and what's
>"lame'?



"Lame" is doing what JFT told you you did - offering zero evidence,
and deriding those who do.

"Lame" is also calling people names rather then provide facts to back
up your position - or, if (as it is clear) you have none, to withdraw.

"Lame" is also making purile assertions of homosexualiny and other
deviant practices instead of logical arguments based of facts and
published research; offering to meet someone face-to-face to discuss
such assertions and their usage, and then backing out when your bluff
was called.
 
On 15 Nov 2006 16:47:20 -0800, "mort" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>> > >I don't understand. Are you saying that the run of housing on old
>> > >fashioned hoods keeps your hands in place?

>>

>
>Here's how it works, or at least how it worked for me once: riding
>along with head in clouds. Old style Campy Super Record gruppo - this
>was about 1985. Ran straight into pothole, hands bounced off the
>hoods, but I was able to grab the cables and get control of the bike.
>"Grab the cables" might be a bit of an overstatement - my hands kind of
>landed on them after leaving the hoods, but at any rate I was able to
>get the bike back upright. Scared the **** out of me, though.
>


Exactly.

Most of the younger riders who populate this newsgroup will not have
had an opportunity to experience this; and like any group of youths
will dismiss the advice of the more experienced ouit-of-hand. Their
time may come...someday.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 15 Nov 2006 19:58:06 -0800, "Ozark Bicycle"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> >> On 15 Nov 2006 06:25:53 -0800, "Ozark Bicycle"
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Yeah, and some[1] would say there is a theoretical possibility
> >> >that wearing a bicycle helmet MIGHT increase the chance of
> >> >getting struck by lightening. Will you give that consideration,
> >> >too?
> >>
> >> It's fine to talk out of speculation -- this discusson of safety
> >> of aero versus traditional levers is that sort of thing. No one
> >> has offered evidence, so we're speculating.
> >>
> >> On the helmet thing you offered nearly zero evidence -- just
> >> speculation. And deride people who offer real evidence. That's
> >> lame.

> >
> >How does a 2 digit IQ bozo like you get to decide what's OK and
> >what's "lame'?


Because, Ozark, he has more of a clue than you do. His Web page is
worth a look and will flesh out the picture considerably. It's clear
that JT's IQ contains three digits and resides at the north end of the
bell curve.

> I'm not sure about my IQ, but I look at the sources of information.
> In the absense of real evidence, I speculate. When one side presents
> realy evidence or broader based evidence or more rigorously obtain
> evidence, I take that are more likely to be right than mere
> speculation. That's how to judge information. To judge it in any
> other way is, well, lame.
 
mort wrote:
> > > >I don't understand. Are you saying that the run of housing on old
> > > >fashioned hoods keeps your hands in place?

> >

>
> Here's how it works, or at least how it worked for me once: riding
> along with head in clouds. Old style Campy Super Record gruppo - this
> was about 1985. Ran straight into pothole, hands bounced off the
> hoods, but I was able to grab the cables and get control of the bike.
> "Grab the cables" might be a bit of an overstatement - my hands kind of
> landed on them after leaving the hoods, but at any rate I was able to
> get the bike back upright. Scared the **** out of me, though.


On the other hand, I once took a header on an older bike, landed hard
on my chin becaue I couldn't get my hands in front of me onacountta
they got snagged by the exposed brake cables.

I think this is a wash as far as safety against freak accidents is
concerned, but the much superior braking from the hoods with "aero"
levers is the killer app.

Sheldon "Not About Aerodynamics" Brown
+------------------------------------------------------------+
| Aerodynamics don't make a difference. |
| How much do you hate riding that your ten mile ride |
| has to take you fifteen seconds less? - Grant Petersen |
| http://sheldonbrown.com/podcasts.html#grant |
+------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
 
On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 14:04:35 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>On 15 Nov 2006 16:47:20 -0800, "mort" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>> > >I don't understand. Are you saying that the run of housing on old
>>> > >fashioned hoods keeps your hands in place?
>>>

>>
>>Here's how it works, or at least how it worked for me once: riding
>>along with head in clouds. Old style Campy Super Record gruppo - this
>>was about 1985. Ran straight into pothole, hands bounced off the
>>hoods, but I was able to grab the cables and get control of the bike.
>>"Grab the cables" might be a bit of an overstatement - my hands kind of
>>landed on them after leaving the hoods, but at any rate I was able to
>>get the bike back upright. Scared the **** out of me, though.
>>

>
>Exactly.
>
>Most of the younger riders who populate this newsgroup will not have
>had an opportunity to experience this; and like any group of youths
>will dismiss the advice of the more experienced ouit-of-hand. Their
>time may come...someday.


Sad to say I'm perhaps one of the younger riders in this group, and
I'm not that young. But I used traditional levers for years and
simply don't agree that the cables are helpful for safety. I just
don't see it, at least if you sit on the bike without putting a lot
of weight on your hands.

--
JT
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On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 16:33:00 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>True, the incidence is likely to be rare - but it is real, and as even
>you have admitted, a useful feature (which equates in terms of this
>discussion to "advantage") of the normal routing of brake cables.


It could equally be argued that it is rare to have a cable hook onto
something (a single hand perhaps, or branch you ride by) but that is
dangerous too.

These situtations are so vanishingly rare as to be irrelevant, and I
don't see how someone can conclude one way is safer than the other
without some serious effort to collect examples.
--
JT
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