Aerobic condition / are we doing too much speedwork?

[2LAP]

Originally posted by TTer
Ahhh, this is the confusion though. Club riders rarely ride at the 'proper' intensity for very long, either hammering/racing up climbs, then noodling along chatting at such an easy pace that it's pointless (I know, I do it too). Otherwise some club runs turn into hammer sessions, almost all LT/anaerobic work. Tourers are in the first category, noodling along at very easy intensities without enough stimulus to raise LT. The inconsistency of the two groups is also a problem, many club riders riding just 2-3 times a week, tourers even less sometimes.

>>Sorry, perhaps a bad example. The point is that there aren't many riders that ride 'long and slow' in their training sessions or who complete very unstructured sessions that have good performances or high VO2 max/LT values.

The kind of aerobic pace I'm referring to would be just below what's called 'Tempo'. Tempo is used to raise LT and is done in relatively short amounts, e.g. 1-3hours per week. So why can't long aerobic rides just beneath that intensity (and I mean, just beneath, maybe nothing more than 5-10 beats below) also raise LT?

>>They could, but they wouldn't be as effective in terms of improvement or time. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be done, only that more intense sessions specificaly focusing on LT and VO2 max (as these limit performance) must be included. Efforts at these intesnities also allow you to experiance riding at racing pace.

>> A range of anaerobic sessions (e.g. maxiumal efforts of one minute) can also have an effect on VO2 max and LT (particularly in untrained people) so there is also an arguement the other way (i.e. for supra maximal efforts).

 

[2LAP]

Originally posted by ricstern
2LAP wrote:

I did a max test earlier in the week my power at each differed quite a bit;
*VO2 max was 355 watts with HR 195
*LT 200 watts with HR 150


2Lap, just curious: is the VO2 max power, the power from (e.g.) the final (mean) 60-secs of an incremental test to exhaustion (if so, what was the ramp rate). or is the power, the minimum required to elicit VO2 max?

I assume that the LT is a 1mmol increase?

Ric

Hay Ric,

I'm a bit pants at the moment 'cos I'm 7 weeks into training a break of a few months due to work.

The 355 is the average power output over one minute, ramp rate 20 watts per minute. VO2 max was 64.5 ml.kg.min. I weigh 61 kg (1.72m) so power to weight was around 5.89 w/kg. Could lose about 2 kg, given some measurements using calipers.

LT was 1mmol increase recorded during a 'lactate profile test' prior to the ramp test, also visulay off a lactate to power plot. I reported the the last point at baseline (so it really falls between 200 and 220). 3 minute stages at 20 watt increases starting at 120 watts. Also used as a warm up for the ramp. Lactate and gas taken in the last minute of each stage.

Think I'm going to be working on my LT for the next 6 to 8 weeks, although in tests I seem to be able to hold a high % of power at VO2 max for a long time despite the low LT.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

2Lap,

now a bit more curious
what power meter did you test on?

Ric

Originally posted by 2LAP
Hay Ric,

I'm a bit pants at the moment 'cos I'm 7 weeks into training a break of a few months due to work.

The 355 is the average power output over one minute, ramp rate 20 watts per minute. VO2 max was 64.5 ml.kg.min. I weigh 61 kg (1.72m) so power to weight was around 5.89 w/kg. Could lose about 2 kg, given some measurements using calipers.

LT was 1mmol increase recorded during a 'lactate profile test' prior to the ramp test, also visulay off a lactate to power plot. I reported the the last point at baseline (so it really falls between 200 and 220). 3 minute stages at 20 watt increases starting at 120 watts. Also used as a warm up for the ramp. Lactate and gas taken in the last minute of each stage.

Think I'm going to be working on my LT for the next 6 to 8 weeks, although in tests I seem to be able to hold a high % of power at VO2 max for a long time despite the low LT.

 

[2LAP]

Originally posted by ricstern
2Lap,

now a bit more curious
what power meter did you test on?

Ric

You'll love this, I did it on a king cycle! I wasn't too interested in the 'watts' results, as I'm still using HR to train on and I can always jump on the kingcycle in the lab to do some 'watts' based training.

It was on one of those very hot days and we struggled to get the lab temperature down even though the air con was on! The fans had been borrowed by people for offices and I didn't have time to get them back. Not the best of data! But, not my study!!!

Doesn't the kingcycle over estimate power

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Originally posted by 2LAP
You'll love this, I did it on a king cycle! I wasn't too interested in the 'watts' results, as I'm still using HR to train on and I can always jump on the kingcycle in the lab to do some 'watts' based training.

It was on one of those very hot days and we struggled to get the lab temperature down even though the air con was on! The fans had been borrowed by people for offices and I didn't have time to get them back. Not the best of data! But, not my study!!!

Doesn't the kingcycle over estimate power

Yes, it does over estimate -- which was the point of my question! as it stood, the original figures were indicative of ~ 2nd cat ability.

How much the Kingcycle overestimates by is usually at least 8%, and sometimes as high as 12%. Depends how old it is, condition of the bearings and the person calibrating the unit.

Over a short period of time, there'll be good correlation between readings, but over a long period of time, data is likely to be off.

No SRMs or PT at your lab?

Ric

 

[2LAP]

No PT or SRM, bummer really!

I haven't trained consistantly for a few years now, completing around 4 months training and 2 months off training (as work dictates ). I was a good junior, but that was 5 whole years ago!!

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Originally posted by 2LAP
No PT or SRM, bummer really!

I haven't trained consistantly for a few years now, completing around 4 months training and 2 months off training (as work dictates ). I was a good junior, but that was 5 whole years ago!!

don't worry, i was an awful junior and i stopped being one in 1988.... or was it 87? so long ago now, i can't remember...

Ric

 

[Markster]

First post so be gentle!

I know I have to be really careful with any work at time trial pace or above. I find that sometimes as little as 3 weeks of high intensity work is sufficient to bring me to a peak. After this I tend to see little further improvement, and if I persist for many more weeks I start to lose performance (and mental freshness), independant of how much recovery time I leave between sessions.

I believe the real gains are made while doing a high volume of quality endurance rides and lactate threshold training over several months, although the improvement in performance is not fully realised until this work is 'tweaked' with a carefully controlled amount of high intensity work in the final weeks before a target.

The very quick adaptation to high intensity work feels great and can easily fool you into thinking that this is how you should train all the time. There seem to be a lot of studies showing how dramatic improvements are made by following an intense interval program for a number of weeks, but if you then made the subjects repeat the trial I'm sure they wouldn't see the same improvements, and then if you got them to repeat it a third time you'd probably have a lot of burned out athletes.

If you are severely limited in training time then theres obviously no point in spending that time at low intensities. But for real speed I've convinced myself that there is no substitute for doing long quality miles (preferably to power rather than HR), with focussed sessions at LT, and then using a carefully controlled period of high intensity as a catalyst so you hit peak form at the right time.

My 10 cents!

Mark

 

[TTer]

Originally posted by ricstern
don't worry, i was an awful junior and i stopped being one in 1988.... or was it 87? so long ago now, i can't remember...

Ric, what kind of level are you at now, or have you been at? Did/do you road race or TT?

What's your VO2max (I assume you've had the opportunity to test in the lab) and what's your LT/VO2max power?

How has training gone for you since been a junior? Much success, or have you been too busy studying to dedicate time to training? Just interested to know your personal success.

 

[TTer]

Originally posted by Markster
I believe the real gains are made while doing a high volume of quality endurance rides and lactate threshold training over several months, although the improvement in performance is not fully realised until this work is 'tweaked' with a carefully controlled amount of high intensity work in the final weeks before a target.

Thanks for your post Mark. Welcome to the discussion!

I'm very much in agreement with you on this. I seem to thrive on the long aerobic rides, with power slowly rising over a number of months. Granted there are some natural intervals in these rides when hitting hills (even some VO2max stimulation?), but mostly it's endurance riding.

With TT pace and Vo2max (e.g. 5x6mins) intervals I tend to peak quickly and then the power and motiviation starts to slide. I noticed it this year. 270W was my 20min TT pace after "base" training, I raised it to 290W for 20mins during the "build" period. It didn't last too well though and started to wane in the 4-8 week part of "build", with 280-285W been the best I could do (was doing this 2x per week with just easy riding between). It could have been my training that was to blame, though my motivation was disappearing too quickly with the tough workouts.

Interesting in the original Hadd thread on running that he says that primarily slow-twitchers (muscle fibers) tend to thrive on the endurance whereas fast-twitchers do well with more intensity. Can this really be true Ric/2Lap from a physiological point of view? I though fast-twitch muscles were used in high-intensity efforts but tired quickly (ie. not suitable for a fast 25mile TT)?

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Originally posted by TTer
Ric, what kind of level are you at now, or have you been at? Did/do you road race or TT?

What's your VO2max (I assume you've had the opportunity to test in the lab) and what's your LT/VO2max power?

How has training gone for you since been a junior? Much success, or have you been too busy studying to dedicate time to training? Just interested to know your personal success.

I've been a 2nd cat rider a few times, almost been a 1st cat (not quite enough points). I've raced abroard, and was once daft enough to ride two weeks of the TdF in front of the pros (supposedly, this was a holiday). i've TTed at every distance from 1km to 12hrs and have a PB of 58 something for 25 and 22:48 for a 10 on a standard road bike with no aero anything.

Won a couple of TTs/HCs and a best of 3rd place in RRs.

My VO2 max last time i was tested in a lab, was 65 mL/kg/min, with a best MAP of 409 W (20 W/min increment; SRM Science). LT power was around 240 W, with 25m TT power of 290 W.

Currently, about 5% below these figures. Raced twice this year, both finishes in the group behind the winning break (a few secs down in both cases).

I no longer TT!

Just an average racer really.
Ric

 

[Aztec]

OK, I must be doubly-dense and cheated through my MBA! ;-)

Here's what I'm really struggling with. To improve VO2 optimally, we need to be working in short sessions/intervals near max heartrate. To improve LT, we need to work at/above LT which is somewhere below the VO2 effort level. But... doesn't working VO2 max then work your LT at the same time? Is the issue that VO2 sessions are limited to such short duration that they do not benefit LT enough, and therefore additional lower-intensity work must be done specifically for the LT?

Would the order of intensity be as follows?
VO2 max
TT power
LT work
LSD

When I rode a local hill, I was at 175+ bpm out of about 190 max, for 70 minutes. What was I working (besides my rear off)?

Does it make sense to do 10 min sessions at LT (165 bpm?) on each of 4 training days, with perhaps each containing a series of 3-5 VO2 max efforts for a few minutes? Then add some lower-intensity work to bring those rides up to 60-90 mins?

 

[zakeen]

Speed work(intervals) must be done! No Questions.

Cycling is a hard sport for many reasons and very different to a running race. Running race is from a to b, on your limits!

Cycling is a to b saving as much energy as possible for the finish, tactics comes into it, drafting, etc..........

Dont spend to much time on paper! These values most apply to TT and Running races.

I said in another thread that intervals are a great race simulation. and you can the best TT but you will always get beaten in a road race. Because in a TT you heart rate sits on one level and stays there for the entire TT. In a road race you heart rate goes up and down and up and down and up and down!

Doing interval training makes your heart rate, recovery better( after a sprint with good interval work you heart rate will drop much faster then an untrained interval rider!)

Also when a rider attacks the trained interval riders heart rate will peak quicker and respond better!

You still must do the other session, just dont leave out the interval work!

 

[2LAP]

Originally posted by Aztec
OK, I must be doubly-dense and cheated through my MBA! ;-)

Here's what I'm really struggling with. To improve VO2 optimally, we need to be working in short sessions/intervals near max heartrate. To improve LT, we need to work at/above LT which is somewhere below the VO2 effort level.

>>Correct.

But... doesn't working VO2 max then work your LT at the same time?

>>Yes, but only to a limited extent.

Is the issue that VO2 sessions are limited to such short duration that they do not benefit LT enough, and therefore additional lower-intensity work must be done specifically for the LT?

>>Correct. And LT sessions are not intense enough for maximal development of VO2.

Would the order of intensity be as follows?
VO2 max
TT power
LT work
LSD

>>Yes. Below LSD would be recovery rides. Above VO2 max would be various sprints.

When I rode a local hill, I was at 175+ bpm out of about 190 max, for 70 minutes. What was I working (besides my rear off)?

>>You would for sure have been between TT power and LT. Riding at LT feels surprisingly easy and there is reletivly little lactate accumulated. Riding at TT power feels like your riding a TT, as Ric has pointed out you may accumulate quite a lot of lactate.

>>How long are your hills?

Does it make sense to do 10 min sessions at LT (165 bpm?) on each of 4 training days, with perhaps each containing a series of 3-5 VO2 max efforts for a few minutes?

>>Yes it's fine to place efforts into a longer ride (perhaps not optimal). But do 2 or 3 VO2 max efforts in a single ride. Do the LT efforts in a different session, puting in 10 to 20 minutes into 3 sessions. When doing this you need to make sure the quality is there.

>>Remember that the point of doing intervals is to accumulate more time at an intensity than you could during a single effort. For example, if motivated you could hold VO2 max for 6 to 8 minutes before becoming fatigued (not recomened for training); by building up blocks of 3 to 5 minutes you could spend upto 20 minutes at this intensity before experiancing the same fatigue.

Then add some lower-intensity work to bring those rides up to 60-90 mins?

>>Yes, get the efforts out early (after a warm up) so that you are still fresh and can enjoy the rest of your ride at a slower pace.

 

[2LAP]

Originally posted by zakeen
Speed work(intervals) must be done! No Questions.

Cycling is a hard sport for many reasons and very different to a running race. Running race is from a to b, on your limits!

Cycling is a to b saving as much energy as possible for the finish, tactics comes into it, drafting, etc..........

Dont spend to much time on paper! These values most apply to TT and Running races.

I said in another thread that intervals are a great race simulation. and you can the best TT but you will always get beaten in a road race. Because in a TT you heart rate sits on one level and stays there for the entire TT. In a road race you heart rate goes up and down and up and down and up and down!

Doing interval training makes your heart rate, recovery better( after a sprint with good interval work you heart rate will drop much faster then an untrained interval rider!)

Also when a rider attacks the trained interval riders heart rate will peak quicker and respond better!

You still must do the other session, just dont leave out the interval work!

I agree with you there, but I think that we were talking about aerobic capacity and TT's; rather than sprints and road races. This is a whole new kettle of fish and just as interesting.

Wouldn't you agree that a RR rider needs a good aerobic capacity to 'get round the event' while the ability to sprint, ride above LT and ride above VO2 (i.e. anaerobic capacity) is important for tactical movements?

 

[Spider1977]

Originally posted by J-MAT
TT'er:

I think you are on the right track with what you came across. Basically all I do is stuff like that and speedwork, with most of it aerobic riding .

The vast majority of TT effort is aerobic and the more power you can generate below your acid limit the better. Months ago, I talked about basically the same thing in the "average speed" post.

I got the idea from an ABCC interview with Sean Yates, and he said he never uses anything bigger than a 42x14 on a fixed gear or a 53x17 on a road bike, always keeping constant power output by maintaining 80-100 rpm at all times. He only got on his Lotus once a month to actually do a TT, and he was doing 50-52 kmh for 10/25's.

A 42x14 sounds weak to many riders, yet many riders would struggle to maintain 95-105 rpm in that gear for 30 minutes, let alone for an hours training ride. Yates said it's not easy to maintain 22-23 mph for an hour, or maintain over 80 rpm in a 53x17. It's true. Those gears sound small but if you force yourself to just hold 80-100 rpm, you will develop a nice power range and improve aerobic fitness.

Obviously, the gear needs to be tailored to the individual, but try this method to see how well it works. You could handle a 42x14. With this gear, go out for an hour and try to hold over 90+ rpm the entire ride. My max is currently 180 bpm, and for me, this gear puts me in the 150's at around 95-98 rpm on mostly flat/somewhat lumpy terrain with fairly strong crosswinds. Perceived exertion is moderately hard.

Whatever I do, I don't let the cadence fall below 90 rpm in a 42x14. On a 53x17, I don't let the cadence go below 85 rpm. That's the key, never letting your cadence drop below 80 rpm no matter what gear or terrain you use. Shift down on the hills to maintain at least 80+ rpm. It's ok to generate some lactate on a climb, but the purpose of the ride is to ride "clean," without generating very much acid.

These gears sound light, but go out for an hours training once warmed up and hold the rpms indicated in those gears. Ride the gears like you are on a fixed-gear bike, meaning maintain tension on the pedals when going downhill, no matter how uncomfortable it is.

The first thing to go when you get tired is your legspeed, and it's really tempting to go into a 53x15 when your legs are tired of spinning fast in a 17 cog, but that's one of the ways it will build your power, forcing you turn the cranks at high cadence, even when you are tired.

These rides are not all out TT efforts, you should be breathing above a conversational pace, but below a TT effort. Just think, if you could ride "easy" like this at 25 mph (101 rpm/53x17)for an hour or so. You would be able to ride a 28+ mph TT without too much difficulty, and maybe even faster!!!

I bounce back and forth between riding like this and doing shorter intervals/speedwork, always allowing for proper recovery in between workouts. Currently, enroute to an interval workout, I'll go slower in a little easier gear, maybe a 42x15 or 42x17 if it's real windy.

Lactic acid is toxic. You have to generate it to tolerate it, but overall, try to minimize it, and don't expose yourself to high acid levels too often. Allow for long recoveries (10+ minutes) between intervals to allow for lactate clearance between efforts. This will help ensure that the next interval can be ridden with maximum quality.

Speedwork is like salt. A little bit goes a long way, not much more will spoil the whole meal. In my experience, 3-5 minute intervals are ridden too frequently and with too little recovery between efforts (1:1 work/rest ratio). They are very important, just don't do a lot too often.

Yates also said his brother made a "comeback" after 10 years off the bike. He did 30 minutes every other day in plimsolls, on 53x17, uphill and down, and in one month, he got down to a 52 minute 25!!!

Good luck!!!

J-Mat, I think you've answered my request for help on another thread. Thanks

 

[Markster]

Intervals do replicate a road race situation well, but you can't ignore them for TT riding either. Although HR is often fairly constant on a flat TT you need to be constantly tweaking the power, feeling for the point where you are just coping with the 'lactate'. This inevitably leads to you going over threshold occasionally, and the ability to recover from this quickly is crucial. Add in the start, short climbs, getting round corners (especially U-turns), and the power profile of a TT looks a lot more complicated. Also, you just can't train for a decent length of time at constant TT pace, it takes far too much mental energy - mental energy that you should be using in racing. Intervals at TT pace and above allow you to become physically and mentally accustomed to the demands of any type of racing without melting your brain.

Having said that I think it's easy to get obsessive about intervals, and i've often ended up trying to do too much. I try and see intervals now as an addition to endurance rides - as you get nearer targets you phase a few efforts into endurance rides, but never so many that you have to dig really deep to complete them. I feel this is much healthier and safer than the way I used to train, where I tried to fit a bit of endurance work around killer interval sessions and was always on the verge of overtraining.

Something I've been doing this year (inc. the winter) which seems to work well is planning some sort of hard effort in all endurance rides. This can be a few sprints, a hard climbs, anything really. I find this really helps mentally as it breaks up long tedious rides, and it also stops you getting stuck at one 'tourist' speed. The focus of the ride is still on aerobic endurance, but you deliberately spice it up a little bit.

 

[Aztec]

Originally posted by 2LAP
Originally posted by Aztec

When I rode a local hill, I was at 175+ bpm out of about 190 max, for 70 minutes. What was I working (besides my rear off)?

>>You would for sure have been between TT power and LT. Riding at LT feels surprisingly easy and there is reletivly little lactate accumulated. Riding at TT power feels like your riding a TT, as Ric has pointed out you may accumulate quite a lot of lactate.

>>How long are your hills?

Does it make sense to do 10 min sessions at LT (165 bpm?) on each of 4 training days, with perhaps each containing a series of 3-5 VO2 max efforts for a few minutes?

>>Yes it's fine to place efforts into a longer ride (perhaps not optimal). But do 2 or 3 VO2 max efforts in a single ride. Do the LT efforts in a different session, puting in 10 to 20 minutes into 3 sessions. When doing this you need to make sure the quality is there.

>>Remember that the point of doing intervals is to accumulate more time at an intensity than you could during a single effort. For example, if motivated you could hold VO2 max for 6 to 8 minutes before becoming fatigued (not recomened for training); by building up blocks of 3 to 5 minutes you could spend upto 20 minutes at this intensity before experiancing the same fatigue.

Then add some lower-intensity work to bring those rides up to 60-90 mins?

>>Yes, get the efforts out early (after a warm up) so that you are still fresh and can enjoy the rest of your ride at a slower pace.

First, thanks 2LAP & Ric for helping me through this.

The hills in my area range in length up to a ~9-mile, 2600 ft climb with some rollers (Mt Tamalpais in Marin County, CA).

My lactate threshold must be fairly high as 165+ bpm feels like I'm just starting to do some work. I *really* struggle to stay under even 150. 175 or so feels like I'm earning my speed, but I can still talk normally. I can't wait to get tested so I can figure out at what level to be training.

I've been thinking of doing TTs as training rides (probably coming in dead last!), but given the above that sounds like it's pushing too hard and unproductive?

I think I'll start working 2x5 mins VO2 max (est HR = 180?) and 1x20 mins LT (est HR = 165?) intervals into my 4-5 rides/week, with the remainder of the time spent at ~140-150 bpm.

Eventually, I'm going to need a coach. I'd like to figure out what works/doesn't work for me, and establish a respectable level of fitness before I go that route. I'd sure like to be able to ride points races, miss-n-outs, etc., on the track. Otherwise that v-drome 60 miles south of me is wasted...

 

[nyterider03]

Go out and get "the Ultimate Ride" by Chris Carmichael. It worked for Lance.

 

[Aztec]

Originally posted by nyterider03
Go out and get "the Ultimate Ride" by Chris Carmichael. It worked for Lance.

Lance = genetic freak. I'm guessing pretty much anything would work for him!