Aerobic Power for Pursuit training

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by macaj, Aug 5, 2008.

  1. macaj

    macaj New Member

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    Hi, I am looking for advice/tips to improve my aerobic power as i am preparing for a 3000 meter pursuit on the track in about 2 months time and i am told that this is a very important area to train to improve performance.

    Thanks in advance.
     
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  2. fergie

    fergie Member

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    Sure is.

    5min L5 intervals are a good base before hitting into some speed work.

    Hamish
     
  3. Simone@Italy

    [email protected] New Member

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    try 6min :)

    (I've found the volounteer :D)
     
  4. fergie

    fergie Member

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    That's advanced training:D
     
  5. frost

    frost New Member

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  6. acoggan

    acoggan Member

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  7. Steve_B

    Steve_B New Member

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    Andy,

    Good stuff. I have questions about the training plan shown.

    The athlete follows a progression of FTP (LT) training followed by VO2 training followed by pursuit-specific training. During the latter two periods, the athlete was not specifically training FTP. I understand why to some extent – I assume it is because they need to spend the time on other parts of their “game” leading up to the important event and things like 5-minute power, being comfortable on the track and the bike, etc. are more important than FTP at that point in the year. I would have normally thought that FTP would have fallen during the latter two stages but according to the plot on slide 36, it actually increased.

    Questions:
    1) Do you think that the apparent FTP increase is partially because of increased rest (higher TSB) during July-September? Any other reason(s)?
    2) I was recently reading up on Arthur Lydiard’s training guidelines and there is a similar pattern in that after FTP development is done, it is left alone. Is the only reason for doing this as I stated above, that valuable time needs to be put to other tasks or is it on purpose that it is not trained, e.g., the two types of training interfere with each other?

    Thanks
     
  8. Alex Simmons

    Alex Simmons Member

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    Here's my take:

    Physiological responses are not discrete to training level. L5 and low end L6 workouts still provide a strong stimulus for LT. So I think you'll find that the shift to higher intensity workouts still provides a good ability to maintain FTP (as do L3/2 endurance workouts).

    It also to some extent depends on your CTL when you start these phases, the higher you are, the more of a beating you can sustain through this period, which means that the stimulus for aerobic power remains high.
     
  9. Piotr

    Piotr New Member

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    I could be wrong, but since FTP can be expressed as a percentage of VO2max power, an increase in FTP should be expected together with an increase in 5 min power. I think slide 36 clearly illustrates it.

    IOW, let's say your 5 min power is 300 W with an FTP of 240 W (80%) . If you work your SST and 2 x 20 for 4 months in the off-season and get your FTP up to 270W (90%). Then you begin training VO2max and raise your 5 min power to 330W, your FTP will now be close to 300 W (still 90%). Well, at least in an ideal world.:)
     
  10. Mike Lawson

    Mike Lawson New Member

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    As one who has recently taken a keen interest in Pursuiting, can I suggest that the information provided in Dr. Coggan's power point presentation at fixedgearfever is the most comprehensive "program" that you're likely to come
    across.

    As a long time coach of middle distance and distance runners as well as cyclists, the information garnered from this presentation, along with my experience preparing for running track races over similar time frames to the pursuit, has seen my 2000m Pursuit time (I'm a Masters 6...55-59) reduce from 2.42 to my current PB of 2.34.02 at 2008 Nationals.

    My current project (I'm calling it Project 2.29) is to work towards cracking the 2min 30sec barrier either at World Masters in Sydney in October, or sometime soon after that.

    If anyone is interested, you can track my progress on a blog I've created at http://mikelawsonscyclingblog.blogspot.com

    In it, I've given some details of the CdA testing I conducted shortly after Nationals, which proved enormously fruitful, with many thanks to regular poster Alex Simmons for his patient analysis of the data I provided.

    Give Pursuiting a big shot. It's very rewarding, especially as it's pretty easy to track progress, and just as importantly, where that progress is being made.

    Mike Lawson
     
  11. macaj

    macaj New Member

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    Hi Just to clarify what HR % is L5?
    Thanks
     
  12. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    Well in theory it's more than 106% of your HR at FTP(i.e. the HR you hold during a steady full out hour long effort). But in reality HR isn't very useful for L5 efforts. It takes a while for HR to respond when you start hammering out an interval and short hard efforts like L5 and L6 work are basically finished before your HR gets as high as it would if you could sustain them longer. If you hit 106% of your FTP HR during an L5 interval it'll happen towards the end so it's not very useful for pacing your efforts.

    A better gauge is your breathing. By definition L5 efforts are stressing VO2 Max. If you're not breathing maximally, not just hard and deep, but at your limit towards the end of an L5 effort you're not going hard enough. Of course even your breathing takes a bit to respond, the first two minutes or so feel o.k. and then it really catches up with you in the second half. These are all part of the reason that power meters are so useful for pacing L5 and L6 intervals, HR, RPE and even breathing all respond slowly to the effort but power readings are immediate.

    -Dave
     
  13. Alex Simmons

    Alex Simmons Member

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    :):D
     
  14. Steve_B

    Steve_B New Member

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    Makes sense. I forgot about that.
     
  15. acoggan

    acoggan Member

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    Didn't know you had a blog, Mike...really fun to catch up on your exploits/progress with "Project 2.29". :)
     
  16. acoggan

    acoggan Member

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    Well for starters, it's helpful to know/realize what is plotted month-by-month is Angie's mean maximal normalized power for 60 min, i.e., what she actually did, which isn't necessarily the most that she could actually do. I'm not a big believer in frequent formal testing (since "training is testing and testing is training"), so I simply used 1 h normalized power as an estimate of changes in her functional threshold power over the course of the year. It's also probably worth emphasizing that she was doing lots of long, hard efforts in races all the way up until late June, and even after focussing on the track was still doing lots of workouts that would be expect to stress functional threshold power (e.g., the Tues/Thurs 4 km team pursuit efforts were done on minimal rest, typically just a couple of laps to let everyone regroup, then they'd have at it again).

    Anyway, while I'm 100% confident that she could have laid down 270 W for 1 h earlier that year (after taking 5 y off and then training for 7 mo, she averaged 269 W during a 40 km TT last season), when longer intervals were the emphasis of her training, I don't know if she could have sustained 290 W for 60 min when peaking for the pursuit. OTOH, she's repeatedly proven incapable of generating an "NP buster", so her functional threshold power is unlikely to have been less than 275 W at that time. Assuming that's correct, changes in her performance ability would be similar to mine, i.e., at least for a couple of months, changing one's focus from longer intervals to shorter intervals does not cause a large drop in functional threshold power. Only if you try to hold that form for even longer does your "base" seem to bleed away.

    As for the comparison to Lydiard, I'd say that's apt, as my thinking w/ respect to training for the pursuit is comparable (although not identical) to how he prepared middle distance runners. More specifically, the answer to your question "why not continue training functional threshold power?" is the second one, i.e., there simply isn't enough time/energy to devote to it when you're hammering away at VO2max, anaerobic capacity, and neuromuscular power.
     
  17. macaj

    macaj New Member

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    Sorry about being ignorant but id don't have A power meter so do L2 and L3 coincide with a specific HR % or should i be looking at a power meter?
     
  18. Mike Lawson

    Mike Lawson New Member

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    Well I thought that some of my experiences, coming with little Pursuiting background, might provide some small insights for other novices. Like where you can get "best bang for your buck" in training or general preparation (I'd say straight off, that aero testing for CdA can potentially deliver gains that might take a year of physical training to match!)

    And it all makes me accountable for what happens on the track too.

    Mike
    p.s. thanks for your ever insightful advice along the way too Andy.

    http://mikelawsonscyclingblog.blogspot.com
     
  19. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    Start by reading this: http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/ along with other more important concepts it defines Andy's training levels with associated typical HRs where applicable. But yes, if you want to make the best use of the information in that link and it's in the budget you should get a power meter. Start by buying a copy of: http://www.amazon.com/Training-Racing-Power-Meter-Hunter/dp/1931382794 which goes a lot deeper than the CyclingPeaks web info.

    Good luck,
    -Dave
     
  20. acoggan

    acoggan Member

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    De nada. Someday I'd like to make a trip to Sydney to meet all of the "mates" I now have down there. :)
     
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