Aerodynamics vs. Lightweight

Ken C. M. said:

'bents don't create more problems. They allow some who cannot ride a DF
to ride, something.

While it's ture that they allow some riders to be in the sport, you
can't claim that there aren't tradeoffs with going 'bent. I agree that
they have their benefits, and I've recommended them to friends before,
but there are tradeoffs.

For example, my daily ride from the office starts with a ride through
an undeveloped lot, and there are a few ledges and rocks in there that
I have to pull up onto and gently hop my rear wheel to meet. On a
'bent, you'd have to hammer these obstacles with the wheels or ride an
extra 1/2 mile on smooth roads just to start your ride.

-Mike

David N. Makinson said:

Art Harris said:

Ken said:

In windy situations, the aerodynamics of your body are far more important
than the aerodynamics of your bike. Try to adjust your seat and handlebar
positions to lower your body even more.

The reason you are probably going faster riding on the drops is not
because of better aerodynamics (some yes), but the real reason is
better leverage on the gears. You will notice that as you go lower on
your bike, you get better leverage in pushing those big honking
gears..

David.

David said:

On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 02:52:47 GMT, "David N. Makinson"

Quoted message said:

Art Harris said:

Ken said:

In windy situations, the aerodynamics of your body are far more important
than the aerodynamics of your bike. Try to adjust your seat and handlebar
positions to lower your body even more.

The reason you are probably going faster riding on the drops is not
because of better aerodynamics (some yes), but the real reason is
better leverage on the gears. You will notice that as you go lower on
your bike, you get better leverage in pushing those big honking
gears..

David.

I dont go along with the better leverage arguement because bikes have gears and so strength and the force applied to the pedals isn't important. Its your power output as we all know which determines your speed. If you pedal harder you pedal slower or use more energy. I dont see how better leverage is going to stop you getting anymore tired.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

I agree-a way for somebody that for a physiological reason cannot ride
an upright, a way to ride a 'bike'...good

But-hard to see from

thats mostly untrue, I find I can see better / more on my bent.

, particularly behind, hard to be seen(low, why

Quoted message said:

many have flags on them), unique parts, like tires and tubes for many

parts and supplies are widely available over the internet.

,

Quoted message said:

not supported by most LBS, unique, complicated steerring systems

mostly untrue, some with underseat steering are unique, but most with
above seat steering are the same as an MTB.

,

Quoted message said:

etc....things that I don't wish to deal with, things that are not a
problem on my upright.

Thats fine, I just find a 'bent is better for ME. And some others as well.

Ken
--
A bicycle does get you there and more.... And there is always the thin
edge of danger to keep you alert and comfortably apprehensive. Dogs
become dogs again and snap at your raincoat; potholes become personal.
And getting there is all the fun. ~Bill Emerson, "On Bicycling,"
Saturday Evening Post, 29 July 1967

Homepage: http://www.bikesandmoreonline.com/

Mike Reed said:

Ken C. M. said:

'bents don't create more problems. They allow some who cannot ride a DF
to ride, something.

While it's ture that they allow some riders to be in the sport, you
can't claim that there aren't tradeoffs with going 'bent. I agree that
they have their benefits, and I've recommended them to friends before,
but there are tradeoffs.

For example, my daily ride from the office starts with a ride through
an undeveloped lot, and there are a few ledges and rocks in there that
I have to pull up onto and gently hop my rear wheel to meet. On a
'bent, you'd have to hammer these obstacles with the wheels or ride an
extra 1/2 mile on smooth roads just to start your ride.

I agree with you. A 'bent is not the best design for all riding
conditions. But they are better for some.

Ken
--
A bicycle does get you there and more.... And there is always the thin
edge of danger to keep you alert and comfortably apprehensive. Dogs
become dogs again and snap at your raincoat; potholes become personal.
And getting there is all the fun. ~Bill Emerson, "On Bicycling,"
Saturday Evening Post, 29 July 1967

Homepage: http://www.bikesandmoreonline.com/

MichaelB said:

David said:

David N. Makinson said:

Art Harris wrote:
> Ken wrote:
>
>
>>In windy situations, the aerodynamics of your body are far more

important

Quoted message said:

>>than the aerodynamics of your bike. Try to adjust your seat and

handlebar

Quoted message said:

>>positions to lower your body even more.
>
>

The reason you are probably going faster riding on the drops is not
because of better aerodynamics (some yes), but the real reason is
better leverage on the gears. You will notice that as you go lower on
your bike, you get better leverage in pushing those big honking
gears..

David.

I dont go along with the better leverage arguement because bikes have
gears and so strength and the force applied to the pedals isn't
important. Its your power output as we all know which determines your
speed. If you pedal harder you pedal slower or use more energy. I
dont see how better leverage is going to stop you getting anymore
tired.

Yeah, if we developed more power in the drops, then that's how we'd
climb. We get more power when we're not all crunched up, as when riding
on the tops on a climb. It helps to relieve pressure on the chest
cavity by opening up.

People go faster in the drops because the aerodynamics tradeoff with
power development is worth it. Same goes for TT positions -- even less
comfortable, and usually less powerful, but still comes out faster...

David said:

Some people suggested you getting low on the bike. I assume riding
mostly on the drops. This gets you low enough, but it still exposes
your front end to the wind. Studies had shown that there is really a
very minor performance enhancement with people riding on the drops.
Most people ride on the drops to get more leverage pushing those big
gears anyhow. And besides, it's not super comfortable riding on the
drops all the time. Most people ride on the hoods anyhow.

IME you get most *power* by riding on the tops - you can feel your back
muscles joining in. For maximum speed (e.g. in a flat TT) you have to
trade power for aerodynamic efficiency.

Ken C. M. said:

Quoted message said:

many have flags on them), unique parts, like tires and tubes for many

Quoted message said:

parts and supplies are widely available over the internet.

So I shouldn't ride my bike for a week because I have to wait for parts
to be shipped to me? I can't stop at a random LBS and pick up
tubes/tires because maybe they only have 700c or 26" MTB sizes?

I guess that's doable, but it would kind of get in the way of riding the
bike all the time. i.e. Like back and forth to work. I guess the
alternative is you have to have at least one backup bike.

And I have to admit, any reason to have additional bikes is probably a
good one...

--
Dane Buson - [email hidden]
I have a rock garden. Last week three of them died.
-- Richard Diran

"Zog The Undeniable" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:4433fc12.0@entanet...

Quoted message said:

David said:

Some people suggested you getting low on the bike. I assume riding
mostly on the drops. This gets you low enough, but it still exposes
your front end to the wind. Studies had shown that there is really a
very minor performance enhancement with people riding on the drops.
Most people ride on the drops to get more leverage pushing those big
gears anyhow. And besides, it's not super comfortable riding on the
drops all the time. Most people ride on the hoods anyhow.

IME you get most *power* by riding on the tops - you can feel your back
muscles joining in. For maximum speed (e.g. in a flat TT) you have to
trade power for aerodynamic efficiency.

Most people ride most of the time on the tops/hoods. Most people produce
less power riding in other positions. While I agree that the most effecient
position probably is on the tops or hoods, riding a lot on the drops or
aero-bars or whatever will make that position more 'powerful'. I now find
that there's not much in it in terms of power between aero-bars and hoods
because I've been riding a lot in both. First TT of the season soon!

Skippy
E&OE

Dane Buson said:

So I shouldn't ride my bike for a week because I have to wait for parts
to be shipped to me? I can't stop at a random LBS and pick up
tubes/tires because maybe they only have 700c or 26" MTB sizes?

You don't have tubes and tyres in stock?

Jasper

Jasper Janssen said:

Dane Buson said:

So I shouldn't ride my bike for a week because I have to wait for parts
to be shipped to me? I can't stop at a random LBS and pick up
tubes/tires because maybe they only have 700c or 26" MTB sizes?

You don't have tubes and tyres in stock?

I do actually, but there have been times I haven't. Or times I've
killed all my tubes and the ones leftover are unpatchable or have 16
patches and maybe it's really just time to retire the poor thing.
Complicating this would be if your bike ran a 20" and a 26" inch or some
other odd combination.

--
Dane Buson - [email hidden]
"He's a born-again Christian.
The trouble is, he suffered brain damage during rebirth." -Anonymous

Dane Buson said:

Ken C. M. said:

Quoted message said:

many have flags on them), unique parts, like tires and tubes for many

Quoted message said:

parts and supplies are widely available over the internet.

So I shouldn't ride my bike for a week because I have to wait for parts
to be shipped to me? I can't stop at a random LBS and pick up
tubes/tires because maybe they only have 700c or 26" MTB sizes?

I guess that's doable, but it would kind of get in the way of riding the
bike all the time. i.e. Like back and forth to work. I guess the
alternative is you have to have at least one backup bike.

And I have to admit, any reason to have additional bikes is probably a
good one...

I always have at least 1 spare tire in all my sizes in stock. And I try
to keep a couple of tubes on hand.

Plus if you have a back up bike that solves the waiting for parts
problems. I don't know what my next bike will be but I am always
planning to add another to the bike collection. Maybe one of those fast
mid-racers.

Ken
--
A bicycle does get you there and more.... And there is always the thin
edge of danger to keep you alert and comfortably apprehensive. Dogs
become dogs again and snap at your raincoat; potholes become personal.
And getting there is all the fun. ~Bill Emerson, "On Bicycling,"
Saturday Evening Post, 29 July 1967

Homepage: http://www.bikesandmoreonline.com/

Dane Buson said:

Ken C. M. said:

Quoted message said:

many have flags on them), unique parts, like tires and tubes for many

Quoted message said:

parts and supplies are widely available over the internet.

So I shouldn't ride my bike for a week because I have to wait for parts
to be shipped to me?

No, you'd be off your bike for a week because of poor planning on your part.

Quoted message said:

I can't stop at a random LBS and pick up
tubes/tires because maybe they only have 700c or 26" MTB sizes?

My recumbent has two 571mm (aka 650c) wheels. There's a triathlon shop
a few miles from my house, so I can certainly get spares 571mm tires and
tubes on short notice (but I have sufficient spares anyway).

I haven't looked, but I'd be surprised if most if not all the local
LBS's have 571 spares too.

Plenty of recumbents (perhaps most) use 406mm (20" BMX) and/or 559mm
(26" MTB) wheels. You can get spares for those anywhere, even WalMart
in a pinch.

Quoted message said:

I guess that's doable, but it would kind of get in the way of riding the
bike all the time. i.e. Like back and forth to work. I guess the
alternative is you have to have at least one backup bike.

You mean you don't have a backup bike (or at least adequate spares) now
even though it's as important to your day to day living as the primary
transport to/from work?

I've been riding my DF road bike to/from work all winter because it's
better for riding at night through construction zones, bunny hopping
over road seams, etc.

Now that it is daylight savings time and the construction has eased up,
I switched back to that aforementioned recumbent. On the same route
home, after months off that bike, I gained 2+mph average speed. I
wasn't me, it was all "the bike". It was essentially like riding on my
DF bike in the most aero position I can manage, but I was in that
position 100% of the time. Going up the steepest sections of some
inclines was noticeably slower, but overall, I gained 2+mph for doing
nothing but riding a different bike in its normal configuration and
riding position.

Quoted message said:

And I have to admit, any reason to have additional bikes is probably a
good one...

You betcha!

I like my DF road bike a lot and it fits me well, and it's comfy enough,
but I ride the recumbent because I am faster on it with the same or less
overall effort.

--
I do not accept unsolicited commercial e-mail. Remove NO_UCE for
legitimate replies.

Victor Kan _uceloopdrive.net said:

Dane Buson said:

Ken C. M. said:

>many have flags on them), unique parts, like tires and tubes for many

Quoted message said:

parts and supplies are widely available over the internet.

So I shouldn't ride my bike for a week because I have to wait for parts
to be shipped to me?

No, you'd be off your bike for a week because of poor planning on your part.

So you're saying you should have spares for every non-bog-standard part
of your bike? Riiiggghhht.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I can't stop at a random LBS and pick up
tubes/tires because maybe they only have 700c or 26" MTB sizes?

My recumbent has two 571mm (aka 650c) wheels. There's a triathlon shop
a few miles from my house, so I can certainly get spares 571mm tires and
tubes on short notice (but I have sufficient spares anyway).

Quoted message said:

I haven't looked, but I'd be surprised if most if not all the local
LBS's have 571 spares too.

True, but I wouldn't be surprised to find one that doesn't either.
There have been times in my life where I couldn't afford to have spare
tubes, tires, and random parts. I know quite a few people in this same
situation currently.

Now I have a corner of the basement setup as a shop and spare wheels,
frames, spokes, rims, derailleurs, etc. But very few people can afford
to take up that kind of space, time and money for that sort of thing.
Of course what I'm really waiting for is 24 hour bike shops so I never
have to be without that vital part I'm missing. <G>

Quoted message said:

Plenty of recumbents (perhaps most) use 406mm (20" BMX) and/or 559mm
(26" MTB) wheels. You can get spares for those anywhere, even WalMart
in a pinch.

Quoted message said:

I guess that's doable, but it would kind of get in the way of riding the
bike all the time. i.e. Like back and forth to work. I guess the
alternative is you have to have at least one backup bike.

You mean you don't have a backup bike (or at least adequate spares) now
even though it's as important to your day to day living as the primary
transport to/from work?

Yes, but then what happens when your backup bike is out of commission?
(Don't laugh I broke two frames in the span of about a month recently.)
Granted, in the case of frames breaking, you're up a chocolate creek
without a popsicle stick regardless. Still, I do count non-standard
parts as a definite negative in any design.

--
Dane Buson - [email hidden]
A lie is an abomination unto the Lord and a very present help in time of trouble.
-- Adlai Stevenson

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So I shouldn't ride my bike for a week because I have to wait for parts
to be shipped to me?

No, you'd be off your bike for a week because of poor planning on your part.

Quoted message said:

So you're saying you should have spares for every non-bog-standard part
of your bike? Riiiggghhht.

For stuff that fails "readily", e.g. tubes and tires, sure. You're
right, I don't have a spare handlebar or chain idler for my recumbent,
so if I broke one or the other, the bike would be out of commission
until I replaced it and I couldn't get the replacement off the shelf
from any random LBS. If I really needed it fast, I could get it
overnighted to me from any number of vendors.

What do you do if a "bog-standard" part on your bike (or my recumbent
for that matter) fails? Are you going to walk into your LBS and pay
perhaps 2x or 4x what you'd want to spend for say a rear derailleur
(they might only have Record or DuraAce in stock--afterall, who walks
into a LBS expecting to buy a Tiagra part from stock), or will you order
what you actually want, perhaps a 105 part, from Nashbar or the LBS and
wait a few days for it?

If the latter, what's the difference between ordering a very readily
available standard part and ordering a less readily available, but
available nonetheless, non-standard part?

Sure, if the manufacturer goes down the tubes (which has happened, no
doubt), it gets tougher. But none of the parts on most recumbents are
wacky enough to leave you with a door stop.

The main exceptions are probably in the realm of recumbent trikes (most
of which have custom/modified front hubs and axles), front-wheel drive
bikes and low racers with offset or mono-blade forks. But folks into
that realm probably aren't relying on those bikes for mundane daily
transport and probably aren't strapped for cash, or they are home
builders in which case they are not necessarily at anyone else's mercy.

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I haven't looked, but I'd be surprised if most if not all the local
LBS's have 571 spares too.

True, but I wouldn't be surprised to find one that doesn't either.
There have been times in my life where I couldn't afford to have spare
tubes, tires, and random parts. I know quite a few people in this same
situation currently.

If you can't afford to invest in a spare tube or two at home (or better
yet carried on your bike) ready to go, can you afford to walk into an
LBS and buy one?

I suppose that is the target market for inexpensive airless tires.

[...]

--
I do not accept unsolicited commercial e-mail. Remove NO_UCE for
legitimate replies.

"Dane Buson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Now I have a corner of the basement setup as a shop and spare wheels,
frames, spokes, rims, derailleurs, etc. But very few people can afford
to take up that kind of space, time and money for that sort of thing.
Of course what I'm really waiting for is 24 hour bike shops so I never
have to be without that vital part I'm missing. <G>

--
Dane Buson - [email hidden]
A lie is an abomination unto the Lord and a very present help in time of
trouble.
-- Adlai Stevenson

24 hour bike shops?! Would that be a Ride-Thru? Must go and register the
trade mark pronto.

Ken C. M. said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

I agree-a way for somebody that for a physiological reason cannot ride
an upright, a way to ride a 'bike'...good

But-hard to see from

thats mostly untrue, I find I can see better / more on my bent.

Behind w/o a mirror?

Quoted message said:

, particularly behind, hard to be seen(low, why

Quoted message said:

many have flags on them), unique parts, like tires and tubes for many

parts and supplies are widely available over the internet.

But not in a bike shop. Do you carry a computer when you ride for a
tube?

Quoted message said:

,

Quoted message said:

not supported by most LBS, unique, complicated steerring systems

mostly untrue, some with underseat steering are unique, but most with
above seat steering are the same as an MTB.

Hrdly the 'same as a MTB-

Quoted message said:

,

Quoted message said:

etc....things that I don't wish to deal with, things that are not a
problem on my upright.

Thats fine, I just find a 'bent is better for ME. And some others as well.

Fine and dandy...the whole point of this is rapidly degrading into a
religious exercise that is common among bent riders, I'm out-

Quoted message said:

Ken
--
A bicycle does get you there and more.... And there is always the thin
edge of danger to keep you alert and comfortably apprehensive. Dogs
become dogs again and snap at your raincoat; potholes become personal.
And getting there is all the fun. ~Bill Emerson, "On Bicycling,"
Saturday Evening Post, 29 July 1967

Homepage: http://www.bikesandmoreonline.com/

Derk said:

Ken C. M. said:

Well that is a debate, most of what I have read seems to indicate that
riding a df will cause more ED problems than riding a 'bent. And if
comfort is what you are after then 'bent is the way to go.

I have seen many of this discussions where people complain about "numbness"
etc. I have had every saddle you can imagine and I never had this problem,
though I ride about 16.500km/year.

It sounds to me like the problem some riders have with cold feet and cold
hands: I ride even in sub-zero temperatures without gloves. I just don't
get cold hands. I gues I'm just lucky.

Gr, Derk

Sounds like you would be a natural for this race
http://www.alaskaultrasport.com/

Quoted message said:

Sounds like you would be a natural for this race
http://www.alaskaultrasport.com/

I think I'll pass on that one, thanks! I read that another Dutchman won, so
it must be in our genes ;-)

Steven de jong from team Rabobank is another rider who always wears
bibshorts and short sleeves in sub-zero temperatures.
I often see here in the middle of winter people who cycle to work in a
cycling shirt with short sleeves and a bibshort. I can't imagine doing
that, since I always wear several layers to keep my upper body warm.

Greets, Derk

Quoted message said:

Wonder how those masochistic freaks that do the Mt. Washington Hill
Climb set up their bikes? I mean, they're basically riding up a cliff
into a hurricane.

FWIW - At least as far a gearing is concerned, last year Ned Overend's
bike was set up with an 11-23 cassette on the rear and a single 24
tooth chainring.

DR