Airless Tires? And How Heavy Is "Heavy"?



N

NYC XYZ

Guest
Hi, All:

Thanks for turning me onto this latest must-have item! =) So that
Schwalbe Marathon Plus sounds like the thing to get to avoid
punctures...but how heavy is "heavy," really?

And what about airless tires? What are they, how do they work?


TIA!!
 
On 3 Feb 2006 12:22:41 -0800, "NYC XYZ" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>And what about airless tires? What are they, how do they work?


They are semi-solid constructs, sometimes using a conventional tube
with a foam doughnut in place of the tube, and sometimes made as a
unit with the foam center molded in place within the tire shell.
While they are often regarded as a good thing on wheelchairs and other
low-speed devoces which require a minimal-maintenance service
situation, they have far higher rolling resistance than most
conventional tires (even the puncture-resistant ones fare better from
what I've heard) and they ride very rough; like running a conventional
tire severely over rated pressure.

Some recreational and commuter cyclists like them. No competitive and
few enthusiast cyclists feel that the penalties justify the expense,
inefficiency, and difficulty of installation.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
 
In the past 4 years, I have ridden on average, 2,000 miles per year. I
have had one puncture flat in that time.

What do I ride? Tubulars (aka sew-ups). Half were standard butyl
tubed, the others TUFO vulcanized tublesss tubulars.

"Impossible!" is what I hear all the time. But if you know how to use
tubulars, they are far better in this respect.

Clinchers are prone to flatting. The stiffness of the construction
encourages puncture rather than deformation. The tube is prone to
pinch flats. And no, this is not because of "faulty installation." It
is the "snakebite" phenomenon--which happens to mountainbikers even
more frequently. At some point, you will bottom out to the rim flange,
and when you do, it is snakebite time. Tubulars don't have that sharp
flange, and so bottoming out never damages anything.

Go ahead and ride your airless bricks. See if you have fun.

The great thing about tubulars is that they are less flat-prone and at
the same time the most fun to ride! (Nothing accelerates, corners or
feels like a good tubular).

And you don't have to deal with trying to get that kevar bead over the
flange in the winter, as you do with clinchers. Tubul;ars are easy to
change--just strip one off and pull the new one on.

Mileage:

rear tires, I get 1,000 miles on a lightweight trainer (Conti Giro) or
TUFO performance type. I gert 2,000 rear wheel miles on the heavier
TUFOS.

front tires, I get over 4,000 miles and have to change them due to
drying out, rather than treadwear.
 
Maybe if you have constant flats; I tried some back in the 70s and

(a) they're real bait for screwdriver skin punctures trying to get
them on and off

(b) they don't solve the changing tire problem! The tube wears through
in a little longer than it takes normally (because you don't care about
actually wearing through as much) so you still have to change the
sucker, and that's _hard_, going off and going on.

(c) the increased vibration breaks apart the hub flange at the spoke
holes.

Cheng Shin tires last forever, if you want an alternative, though
they have by far the greatest rolling resistance I've ever run into.

--
Ron Hardin
[email protected]

On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
 
"NYC XYZ" <[email protected]> writes:

> Hi, All:
>
> Thanks for turning me onto this latest must-have item! =) So that
> Schwalbe Marathon Plus sounds like the thing to get to avoid
> punctures...but how heavy is "heavy," really?
>
> And what about airless tires? What are they, how do they work?


They ride like they have 200 psi in them, and they roll like they have
40 psi in them. In other words, the worst of both worlds. They won't
go flat but you'll also not enjoy riding your bike...
 
"bill" <[email protected]> writes:

> In the past 4 years, I have ridden on average, 2,000 miles per year.
> I have had one puncture flat in that time.


8,000 miles and "one puncture flat." Have you had other types of
flats?

> What do I ride? Tubulars (aka sew-ups). Half were standard butyl
> tubed, the others TUFO vulcanized tublesss tubulars.
>
> "Impossible!" is what I hear all the time. But if you know how to
> use tubulars, they are far better in this respect.
>
> Clinchers are prone to flatting. The stiffness of the construction
> encourages puncture rather than deformation.


Malarkey. Pure and simple. Those who have ridden both know that you
are either making this up or thoroughly confused. There are lots of
clinchers available with casings every bit as supple as tubulars.
Hell, most tubulars are nowhere near as supple as the old Setas but
people talk about them like all tubulars are like those old silks.

> The tube is prone to pinch flats. And no, this is not because of
> "faulty installation." It is the "snakebite" phenomenon--which
> happens to mountainbikers even more frequently. At some point, you
> will bottom out to the rim flange, and when you do, it is snakebite
> time.


Fairly true. Although I can't recall a pinch flat on my clinchers in
quite a while, a couple of years maybe.

> Tubulars don't have that sharp flange, and so bottoming out
> never damages anything.


Malarkey again.

> Go ahead and ride your airless bricks. See if you have fun.
>
> The great thing about tubulars is that they are less flat-prone and
> at the same time the most fun to ride! (Nothing accelerates, corners
> or feels like a good tubular).


A double dose of you-know-what here.

> And you don't have to deal with trying to get that kevar bead over
> the flange in the winter, as you do with clinchers. Tubul;ars are
> easy to change--just strip one off and pull the new one on.


I can change the tube out of a clincher faster than I can replace a
tubular.

> Mileage:
>
> rear tires, I get 1,000 miles on a lightweight trainer (Conti Giro)
> or TUFO performance type. I gert 2,000 rear wheel miles on the
> heavier TUFOS.


Wow. I'd be really ****** off if I only got 1000 miles on a rear tire
before it wore out.

> front tires, I get over 4,000 miles and have to change them due to
> drying out, rather than treadwear.


Rotating your tires correctly prevents this problem. Take the worn
out rear tire off, swap the front tire onto the rear wheel and put the
new tire on the front.
 
Tim McNamara wrote:
>
> Rotating your tires correctly prevents this problem. Take the worn
> out rear tire off, swap the front tire onto the rear wheel and put the
> new tire on the front.
>


Tim, I don't understand the logic of this. If you are wearing out your
rear tire twice as fast, why put a half used tire on the rear? Would
you not have to replace it twice as quickly as if you put the new tire
on the rear? Not trying to be a wise guy, just trying to understand
what you are saying.

> ... Although I can't recall a pinch flat on my clinchers in
> quite a while, a couple of years maybe.


Agree with you completely. I can't imagine ever having a pinch flat on
a properly inflated road tire unless I somehow manage to hit a pot hole
or am unable to avoid running over a foreign object.
 
catzz66 <[email protected]> writes:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
>> Rotating your tires correctly prevents this problem. Take the worn
>> out rear tire off, swap the front tire onto the rear wheel and put
>> the new tire on the front.

>
> Tim, I don't understand the logic of this. If you are wearing out
> your rear tire twice as fast, why put a half used tire on the rear?
> Would you not have to replace it twice as quickly as if you put the
> new tire on the rear? Not trying to be a wise guy, just trying to
> understand what you are saying.


Ah, that's pretty simple. As was pointed out in the post to whch I was
responding, the front tire basically never wears out but eventually
fails from aging- spossibly with a sidewall blowout or something else
catstrophic. By swapping the front tire onto the back and putting the
new rubber up front, you eliminate this problem.
 
catzz66 wrote:
> Tim McNamara wrote:
>
>>
>> Rotating your tires correctly prevents this problem. Take the worn
>> out rear tire off, swap the front tire onto the rear wheel and put the
>> new tire on the front.

>
> >

>
> Tim, I don't understand the logic of this. If you are wearing out your
> rear tire twice as fast, why put a half used tire on the rear? Would
> you not have to replace it twice as quickly as if you put the new tire
> on the rear? Not trying to be a wise guy, just trying to understand
> what you are saying.



Big reason, if your rear tire blows out, your back wheel will stop, and
your bike will drag it's butt, until you stop. If your front tire blows
out, you front wheel will stop, and you do a OTB face plant. I don't
know given that option, I would rather have the rear one go....

W
 
"The Wogster" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> catzz66 wrote:
> > Tim McNamara wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Rotating your tires correctly prevents this problem. Take the worn
> >> out rear tire off, swap the front tire onto the rear wheel and put the
> >> new tire on the front.

> >
> > >

> >
> > Tim, I don't understand the logic of this. If you are wearing out your
> > rear tire twice as fast, why put a half used tire on the rear? Would
> > you not have to replace it twice as quickly as if you put the new tire
> > on the rear? Not trying to be a wise guy, just trying to understand
> > what you are saying.

>
>
> Big reason, if your rear tire blows out, your back wheel will stop, and
> your bike will drag it's butt, until you stop. If your front tire blows
> out, you front wheel will stop, and you do a OTB face plant. I don't
> know given that option, I would rather have the rear one go....
>


I don't know about the road but on mtn bikes front tire traction is much
more important than rear tire traction. If I'm running the same tires front
and rear I always rotate front to rear. Nice new edges on the front knobs
and an almost new tire on the rear. The ratio of rear wear to front wear is
probably a lot higher off-road.

Greg
 
NYC XYZ wrote:
>
> Thanks for turning me onto this latest must-have item! =) So that
> Schwalbe Marathon Plus sounds like the thing to get to avoid
> punctures...but how heavy is "heavy," really?


I used the 700x38 version of those tires, and they are about twice as
heavy as the lightest tires I have used in that size range.

http://www.schwalbe.com/index.pl?be...ch=4&produktgruppe=48&produkt=131&details=226

I _love_ Schwalbe Marathon Plus tires, but I have had some problems
with them blowing off my rims at modest amounts over the sidewall
rating. I have also had one sidewall herniate at the rated pressure
with less than 20 miles on the tire.

That's the bad news. The good news is that they not only prevent
punctures, but the tread's "chewy center" offers a cushy ride even when
the casing is inflated very hard. It makes a tremendous positive
difference in ride quality.

I wish my bikes could accomodate the 700x47 size.

Chalo Colina
 
On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 16:30:00 -0600, Tim McNamara
<[email protected]> wrote:

>"bill" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> front tires, I get over 4,000 miles and have to change them due to
>> drying out, rather than treadwear.

>
>Rotating your tires correctly prevents this problem. Take the worn
>out rear tire off, swap the front tire onto the rear wheel and put the
>new tire on the front.


Ah, but with tubulars, this isn't practical; only a clincher allows
the tire to be easily and swiftly demounted and remounted for
immediate use on a different wheel. Thus a worn tubular on a front
wheel is likely to remain in service there until it's worn out. The
commonplace clincher safety measure of always putting the best tire
forward isn't a policy that easily adhered to with tubulars.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
 
I gave up quickly on slime tubes for the reasons stated by others. It's
impossible to repair a puncture when you get one, and worse, difficult to
reinflate the tube. I also gave up after a couple winters on studded tires.
Their rolling resistance is big-time (2+ mph for me), plus they are very
noisy.

Mr. Tuffy liners stop many (not all) punctures, but their sharp edges
themselves cause leaks. That can be cured with thick thorn resistant tubes,
which I do use. But they too have a downside. They are more susceptible to
stem failures than other tires.

I have had success with Bontrager kevlar-lined tires. Like the Mr. Tuffy
liners, they don't stop everything (I've had failures when I hit a 1 1/2
inch screw and a 1 inch nail), but they do stop a lot of small stuff. Plus
they're good for 5000 miles or so on the rear wheel and almost indefinitely
on the front. I assume I'm giving up some speed because they are moderately
heavy. I use them with the thorn resistant tube and sometimes a Mr. Tuffy
liner, though I'm leaning against that right now. On long trips, my spare
tubes are not thorn resistant. They're too bulky.


"NYC XYZ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi, All:
>
> Thanks for turning me onto this latest must-have item! =) So that
> Schwalbe Marathon Plus sounds like the thing to get to avoid
> punctures...but how heavy is "heavy," really?
>
> And what about airless tires? What are they, how do they work?
>
>
> TIA!!
>
 
Tim McNamara wrote:
>
>
> Ah, that's pretty simple. As was pointed out in the post to whch I was
> responding, the front tire basically never wears out but eventually
> fails from aging- spossibly with a sidewall blowout or something else
> catstrophic. By swapping the front tire onto the back and putting the
> new rubber up front, you eliminate this problem.
>


I get it. Use it or lose it. Thanks.
 
"NYC XYZ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi, All:
>
> Thanks for turning me onto this latest must-have item! =) So that
> Schwalbe Marathon Plus sounds like the thing to get to avoid
> punctures...but how heavy is "heavy," really?
>
> And what about airless tires? What are they, how do they work?
>
>
> TIA!!
>

there are two types you could use, the entire airless tire/tube unit as one,
or use a tire of your choice with a airless tube.
In either case they are heavier, which makes the wheels feel sluggish and
more hard to pedal (sort of like the rolling resistance is greater).
They ride and feel harder or more harsh. They are very difficult to get on,
you have to be careful to not stab yourself as you have to use real wide
blade screwdrivers to put them on, whcih means thin alumnium rims can be
damaged in the process, but if you have steel stamped rims you are OK.
The sold tire ones may not have a good gripper tire design, you may need to
be f\careful on wet roads or streets in the turns and such.
But if you are getting lots of flats from thorns, glass, sharp rock
splinters and such, they are the way to go in that case.
it is a trade off, lots of flats or lots of riding, so it depends.
 
NYC XYZ wrote:

> Thanks for turning me onto this latest must-have item! =) So that
> Schwalbe Marathon Plus sounds like the thing to get to avoid
> punctures...but how heavy is "heavy," really?


Too heavy for racing if you're serious about it, but not too heavy
otherwise, especially on a bike like a Streetmachine which isn't
exactly light to start with.

I use standard Marathons on mine and have managed one puncture in
several years (a glass sliver). Also use Marathons on the Brompton
folder, add another puncture over several years on those. Unless
you're in a particulat puncture black spot) lanes covered in
trimmings from Hawthorn hedges are often cited in the UK) standard
Marathons (standard issue on the SMGT) should be fine.

> And what about airless tires? What are they, how do they work?


They're made from closed cell foam, I think. As to "how do they
work?", "not very well" appears to be the almost universal opinion
from cyclists that actually want to get about over any sort of
distance and enjoy themselves in the process. But you won't get
flat tyres.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
Peter Clinch wrote:
>
>
> Too heavy for racing if you're serious about it, but not too heavy
> otherwise, especially on a bike like a Streetmachine which isn't
> exactly light to start with.


Actually, I almost threw one up to the ceiling the first time I lifted
it! With all the talk about "heavy" I forgot that 33-lbs. is almost
less than half what I curl at the gym!

I mean, even a tire weighing 300g means like a pound for two of them on
a bike...that's like carring a loaf of bread in the pannier! Not even,
since that pound is "stretched out"....

Of course I have a need for speed -- though I won't be "racing" -- but
I don't see how things can be adversely affected by a couple of hundred
of extra grams.

> I use standard Marathons on mine and have managed one puncture in
> several years (a glass sliver). Also use Marathons on the Brompton
> folder, add another puncture over several years on those. Unless
> you're in a particulat puncture black spot) lanes covered in
> trimmings from Hawthorn hedges are often cited in the UK) standard
> Marathons (standard issue on the SMGT) should be fine.


Thanks! That's a relief for sure. The last flat I had was at night,
along a small highway (how come these are always full of debris?!),
like thirty-five miles away from home. A real bummer topping off an
otherwise great day.

> They're made from closed cell foam, I think. As to "how do they
> work?", "not very well" appears to be the almost universal opinion
> from cyclists that actually want to get about over any sort of
> distance and enjoy themselves in the process. But you won't get
> flat tyres.


I'm still damned curious, and would be willing to just try some out --
though I'll be too lazy to install them if they're really that much of
a hassle just getting on and off! Not to mention damaging the
wheels...?!?!

> Pete.
> --
> Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
> Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
> Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
> net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
NYC XYZ wrote:

> Of course I have a need for speed -- though I won't be "racing" -- but
> I don't see how things can be adversely affected by a couple of hundred
> of extra grams.


Depends on how much you're really worrying, but if it weren't a
genuine concern all the bikes ridden by pros wouldn't be floating
/very/ close to the UCI's minimum weight limit, as there'd be
nothing to gain.

Also, if the weight is on the wheels it'll possibly have some
noticable effect on the handling, perhaps more especially on the
steered wheel. But I doubt you'd notice that much difference on a
bike like the Streetmachine, which is both refined and a little
ponderous even though it can get a good head of speed with a run at it.

> I'm still damned curious, and would be willing to just try some out --


Your time... though I'm not afraid to experiment a fair bit (or I
wouldn't ride 'bents and unis), something which has been widely
available for years and has attracted /no/ positive comments from
any cyclist covering distances I've yet come across is really not
shouting out "Try me! Try me!".

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
Most of the opinions you will receive about airless tires are from
people who have never tried them and are just repeating what they've
heard from a disgruntled consumer who probably wasn't smart enough to
buy the correct size tire for their rim.

The main problem with them is that they only fit well on a few rims
and, since you can't air them up to fit, you don't get the kind of
performance that they are capable of giving.

They are much heavier and don't roll _quite_ as well as a pneumatic
tire but, if you use them for what they are best for, they are, to my
mind, SUPER and I have always had one bike with airless tires for about
8 years now.

There are times when I _need_ to get somewhere, times when it is cold,
raining, dark, I'm going to be carrying groceries, etc., etc. and I
just don't want to chance getting a flat.

However, most of the time I ride a fixie with pneumatic tires.

Lewis.

**********
 
NYC XYZ wrote:
> Hi, All:
>
> Thanks for turning me onto this latest must-have item! =) So that
> Schwalbe Marathon Plus sounds like the thing to get to avoid
> punctures...but how heavy is "heavy," really?
>
> And what about airless tires? What are they, how do they work?
>
>
> TIA!!
>


Why is this x-posted to rec.bicycles.misc *and* rec.bicycles.tech *and*
rec.bicycles.marketplace??

Only one seems necessary.

\\paul