Alfine setup questions

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Ryan Cousineau, Apr 29, 2008.

  1. I've got a new Alfine drivetrain and I'm adding it to an existing bike
    (a steel road bike with horizontal dropouts).

    For reasons that are some combination of pragmatic, quixotic, and daft,
    I'm contemplating setting up the hub so that instead of the hub's cable
    attachment arm being roughly parallel to the chainstay, it would be
    roughly parallel to the seatstay. Then I'll run the cable down the
    seatstay using a full housing and some zip-ties. That orientation is
    provided, BTW, by the anti-turn washers for vertical dropouts.

    Is there any danger or detriment in this? As far as I can tell, the
    cable doesn't get any closer to the cable and cog than it would in the
    normal position: I'm using the Shimano cog with an integrated guard, too.

    Bonus question: any nominations for a really cheap 700c/29er singlespeed
    frame with disc mounts? I'm plotting fiendishly to move this project
    into Phase II sometime in early Fall: Mud-cheating cyclocross cheater
    bike, with disc brakes and the Alfine hub. The current cheapest nominee
    seems to be an NYCBikes CrossSpeed II.

    Plan B.i would be to not worry about the rear brake so much, and just
    run a front disc on whatever old canti-post frame I can find.

    --
    Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
    "My scenarios may give the impression I could be an excellent crook.
    Not true - I am a talented lawyer." - Sandy in rec.bicycles.racing
     
    Tags:


  2. Gary Young

    Gary Young Guest

    On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 05:47:25 +0000, Ryan Cousineau wrote:

    > I've got a new Alfine drivetrain and I'm adding it to an existing bike
    > (a steel road bike with horizontal dropouts).
    >
    > For reasons that are some combination of pragmatic, quixotic, and daft,
    > I'm contemplating setting up the hub so that instead of the hub's cable
    > attachment arm being roughly parallel to the chainstay, it would be
    > roughly parallel to the seatstay. Then I'll run the cable down the
    > seatstay using a full housing and some zip-ties. That orientation is
    > provided, BTW, by the anti-turn washers for vertical dropouts.
    >
    > Is there any danger or detriment in this? As far as I can tell, the
    > cable doesn't get any closer to the cable and cog than it would in the
    > normal position: I'm using the Shimano cog with an integrated guard,
    > too.
    >
    > Bonus question: any nominations for a really cheap 700c/29er singlespeed
    > frame with disc mounts? I'm plotting fiendishly to move this project
    > into Phase II sometime in early Fall: Mud-cheating cyclocross cheater
    > bike, with disc brakes and the Alfine hub. The current cheapest nominee
    > seems to be an NYCBikes CrossSpeed II.
    >


    Jenson has a $115 frame with an eccentric bottom-bracket:

    http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/FR405A01-Zion+737Ebb+Frame.aspx

    Do you know if the CrossSpeed II requires a suspension-corrected fork?
    It's pretty amazing to find a frame with Rohloff dropouts for only $200.
    Plus, you get to throw around this NYCBikes slogan:

    "It's got chunks of lesser bikes in it's [sic] stool."

    http://www.nycbikes.com/item.php?item_id=566
     
  3. landotter

    landotter Guest

    On Apr 30, 12:47 am, Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]> wrote:
    > I've got a new Alfine drivetrain and I'm adding it to an existing bike
    > (a steel road bike with horizontal dropouts).
    >
    > For reasons that are some combination of pragmatic, quixotic, and daft,
    > I'm contemplating setting up the hub so that instead of the hub's cable
    > attachment arm being roughly parallel to the chainstay, it would be
    > roughly parallel to the seatstay. Then I'll run the cable down the
    > seatstay using a full housing and some zip-ties. That orientation is
    > provided, BTW, by the anti-turn washers for vertical dropouts.
    >
    > Is there any danger or detriment in this? As far as I can tell, the
    > cable doesn't get any closer to the cable and cog than it would in the
    > normal position: I'm using the Shimano cog with an integrated guard, too.


    If it's the same concept as the 7, I believe you're good to go.

    >
    > Bonus question: any nominations for a really cheap 700c/29er singlespeed
    > frame with disc mounts? I'm plotting fiendishly to move this project
    > into Phase II sometime in early Fall: Mud-cheating cyclocross cheater
    > bike, with disc brakes and the Alfine hub. The current cheapest nominee
    > seems to be an NYCBikes CrossSpeed II.
    >


    Can't get cheaper than that, really.

    > Plan B.i would be to not worry about the rear brake so much, and just
    > run a front disc on whatever old canti-post frame I can find.
    >


    With road pull discs, see what Fate deals you. If you find a cool old
    canti frame, run a retro looking Tektro CR720 on the rear and a cable
    disc on the the front.
     
  4. On Apr 30, 7:47 am, Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Bonus question: any nominations for a really cheap 700c/29er singlespeed
    > frame with disc mounts? I'm plotting fiendishly to move this project
    > into Phase II sometime in early Fall: Mud-cheating cyclocross cheater
    > bike, with disc brakes and the Alfine hub. The current cheapest nominee
    > seems to be an NYCBikes CrossSpeed II.


    Redline Monocog 29er perhaps isn't available as a frameset, but a
    complete bike is about $400. Then you get a nice steel frameset and
    all the parts. Just rims and tires let alone a fork would add up for
    the NYC.

    A quick google found the frameset alone for $175:

    http://www.bikejerseys.com/mon29erframf.html

    Joseph
     
  5. landotter

    landotter Guest

    On Apr 30, 6:40 am, Gary Young <[email protected]> wrote:
    > On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 05:47:25 +0000, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
    > > I've got a new Alfine drivetrain and I'm adding it to an existing bike
    > > (a steel road bike with horizontal dropouts).

    >
    > > For reasons that are some combination of pragmatic, quixotic, and daft,
    > > I'm contemplating setting up the hub so that instead of the hub's cable
    > > attachment arm being roughly parallel to the chainstay, it would be
    > > roughly parallel to the seatstay. Then I'll run the cable down the
    > > seatstay using a full housing and some zip-ties. That orientation is
    > > provided, BTW, by the anti-turn washers for vertical dropouts.

    >
    > > Is there any danger or detriment in this? As far as I can tell, the
    > > cable doesn't get any closer to the cable and cog than it would in the
    > > normal position: I'm using the Shimano cog with an integrated guard,
    > > too.

    >
    > > Bonus question: any nominations for a really cheap 700c/29er singlespeed
    > > frame with disc mounts? I'm plotting fiendishly to move this project
    > > into Phase II sometime in early Fall: Mud-cheating cyclocross cheater
    > > bike, with disc brakes and the Alfine hub. The current cheapest nominee
    > > seems to be an NYCBikes CrossSpeed II.

    >
    > Jenson has a $115 frame with an eccentric bottom-bracket:
    >
    > http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/FR405A01-Zion+737Ebb+Frame.aspx
    >
    > Do you know if the CrossSpeed II requires a suspension-corrected fork?
    > It's pretty amazing to find a frame with Rohloff dropouts for only $200.
    > Plus, you get to throw around this NYCBikes slogan:
    >
    > "It's got chunks of lesser bikes in it's [sic] stool."


    Whoa, gnarly spelling!
     
  6. Andre Jute

    Andre Jute Guest

    On Apr 30, 6:47 am, Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]> wrote:
    > I've got a new Alfine drivetrain and I'm adding it to an existing bike
    > (a steel road bike with horizontal dropouts).
    >
    > For reasons that are some combination of pragmatic, quixotic, and daft,
    > I'm contemplating setting up the hub so that instead of the hub's cable
    > attachment arm being roughly parallel to the chainstay, it would be
    > roughly parallel to the seatstay. Then I'll run the cable down the
    > seatstay using a full housing and some zip-ties. That orientation is
    > provided, BTW, by the anti-turn washers for vertical dropouts.
    >
    > Is there any danger or detriment in this? As far as I can tell, the
    > cable doesn't get any closer to the cable and cog than it would in the
    > normal position: I'm using the Shimano cog with an integrated guard, too.
    >


    There may be an advantage in doing what you plan because the gear
    cable may be less exposed on the seatstay than on the chainstay;
    though I don't do any offroading on my bikes, I notice that the roller
    brake cable on the other chainstay gets caught on my foot every time I
    operate the kickstand, and that on an open bike the gearchange cable
    on the crank side chainstay would be very exposed to shrubbery and
    stones and general mayhem.

    On the other hand, with the chainstay cable run, the gearbox torque
    arm if hit can just flex under the chainstay where it will meet no
    resistance, whereas with your setup, if I visualise it right, it seems
    very likely that even a light hit will bend the torque arm over the
    chainstay -- ouch!

    Make sure that the amount of bare cable exposed from the stop to the
    gear operating nut is 101mm exactly; don't move that nut if you don't
    have to. The dccument you want is numbered
    6FD0A-SL-8S20_CJ-8S20-EN_v1_m56577569830605888.pdf
    Look for it on the Paul Lange netsite.

    Your description doesn't make clear if the different anti-turn washers
    you intend to use will turn the entire hub counterclockwise to put the
    detent for the actual operating nut on the cable at approximately 30
    degrees below the horizontal through the axle, say at the 8 o'clock
    position. If this is the case, it might get dirty rather more quickly
    than in the "normal" position. Just something to remember for a
    cleaning routine. Except for practising to take my Nexus-gearhub
    wheels off just in case of a roadside emergency, and demonstrating to
    other cyclists and family how quickly they can be removed and refitted
    once you have practised the tricky (intricate, fiddly) bits, I haven't
    actually removed mine, nor noticed that massive dirt gathers in the
    works around that nut (in the "normal" 11 o'clock position on both my
    Nexus bikes.

    Finally, a tip about fitting the gearchange cable to the gearhub, the
    dumbest bit of design I have ever seen Shimano, generally a very smart
    design company, perpetrate. Pay close attention to the instruction to
    twist the cable just so before you attempt to push the nut into the
    detent; it is a fitting procedure in three dimensions, with a twist.
    Nor will you manage it even if you follow the instruction perfectly
    unless you have a 2mm Allen key; if you use the 2mm for nothing else
    on your bike, carry it for just this purpose. You insert it in a handy
    hole (possibly made by the designers for just this purpose), then drag
    the entire rotating assembly around counterclockwise with the allen
    key as your handle, and suddenly you have space for your fingers (or
    needlenose pliers) to get the nut -- on the correctly twisted cable --
    into the detent. It's incredibly simple if you have practised it; try
    it for the first time beside a dark road when you have a flat, and
    you'd better pray your mobile is charged up and you have cabfare home
    because you will never get it right by trial and error.

    HTH.

    Andre Jute
    http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE & CYCLING.html
     
  7. In article
    <[email protected]m>,
    landotter <[email protected]> wrote:

    > On Apr 30, 6:40 am, Gary Young <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 05:47:25 +0000, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
    > > > I've got a new Alfine drivetrain and I'm adding it to an existing bike
    > > > (a steel road bike with horizontal dropouts).

    > >
    > > > For reasons that are some combination of pragmatic, quixotic, and daft,
    > > > I'm contemplating setting up the hub so that instead of the hub's cable
    > > > attachment arm being roughly parallel to the chainstay, it would be
    > > > roughly parallel to the seatstay. Then I'll run the cable down the
    > > > seatstay using a full housing and some zip-ties. That orientation is
    > > > provided, BTW, by the anti-turn washers for vertical dropouts.

    > >
    > > > Is there any danger or detriment in this? As far as I can tell, the
    > > > cable doesn't get any closer to the cable and cog than it would in the
    > > > normal position: I'm using the Shimano cog with an integrated guard,
    > > > too.

    > >
    > > > Bonus question: any nominations for a really cheap 700c/29er singlespeed
    > > > frame with disc mounts? I'm plotting fiendishly to move this project
    > > > into Phase II sometime in early Fall: Mud-cheating cyclocross cheater
    > > > bike, with disc brakes and the Alfine hub. The current cheapest nominee
    > > > seems to be an NYCBikes CrossSpeed II.

    > >
    > > Jenson has a $115 frame with an eccentric bottom-bracket:
    > >
    > > http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/FR405A01-Zion+737Ebb+Frame.aspx
    > >
    > > Do you know if the CrossSpeed II requires a suspension-corrected fork?
    > > It's pretty amazing to find a frame with Rohloff dropouts for only $200.
    > > Plus, you get to throw around this NYCBikes slogan:
    > >
    > > "It's got chunks of lesser bikes in it's [sic] stool."

    >
    > Whoa, gnarly spelling!


    I assume the apostrophe catastrophe is a result of a bit of NYC attitude
    applied to the English language. :).

    The Zion frame is a good find, and in retrospect, I remember digging
    that up before, but it seems to be out of stock now.

    Plan C may be to experiment with welding a disc mount onto an
    otherwise-unused frame in The Pile, but the general principle (notably
    expressed by Landotter upthread) that I should just live without a rear
    disc is probably the most sensible.

    --
    Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
    "In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
    "In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."
     
  8. In article
    <[email protected]m>,
    Andre Jute <[email protected]> wrote:

    > On Apr 30, 6:47 am, Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > I've got a new Alfine drivetrain and I'm adding it to an existing bike
    > > (a steel road bike with horizontal dropouts).
    > >
    > > For reasons that are some combination of pragmatic, quixotic, and daft,
    > > I'm contemplating setting up the hub so that instead of the hub's cable
    > > attachment arm being roughly parallel to the chainstay, it would be
    > > roughly parallel to the seatstay. Then I'll run the cable down the
    > > seatstay using a full housing and some zip-ties. That orientation is
    > > provided, BTW, by the anti-turn washers for vertical dropouts.
    > >
    > > Is there any danger or detriment in this?


    > There may be an advantage in doing what you plan because the gear
    > cable may be less exposed on the seatstay than on the chainstay;
    >
    > On the other hand, with the chainstay cable run, the gearbox torque
    > arm if hit can just flex under the chainstay where it will meet no
    > resistance, whereas with your setup, if I visualise it right, it seems
    > very likely that even a light hit will bend the torque arm over the
    > chainstay -- ouch!


    It's something to watch for, but I don't think it will be an issue. I
    have mounted the wheel up like this on the work stand, and it looks like
    the arm is between the seatstay and chainstay, and not likely to come in
    contact with either, at least barring catastrophic circumstances. I'll
    take some photos soon.

    > Your description doesn't make clear if the different anti-turn washers
    > you intend to use will turn the entire hub counterclockwise to put the
    > detent for the actual operating nut on the cable at approximately 30
    > degrees below the horizontal through the axle, say at the 8 o'clock
    > position. If this is the case, it might get dirty rather more quickly
    > than in the "normal" position. Just something to remember for a
    > cleaning routine. Except for practising to take my Nexus-gearhub
    > wheels off just in case of a roadside emergency, and demonstrating to
    > other cyclists and family how quickly they can be removed and refitted
    > once you have practised the tricky (intricate, fiddly) bits, I haven't
    > actually removed mine, nor noticed that massive dirt gathers in the
    > works around that nut (in the "normal" 11 o'clock position on both my
    > Nexus bikes.


    The entire "fixed" part of the shifting assembly (basically, the arm,
    the cable mount, and that bit of the hub assembly that doesn't turn with
    the hub shell) will be rotated counterclockwise (looking from the drive
    side, of course). It's probably closer to 45 degrees "back" from normal.
    I'll keep an eye on it for dirt issues.

    > Finally, a tip about fitting the gearchange cable to the gearhub, the
    > dumbest bit of design I have ever seen Shimano,


    [&c...]

    Thanks for the suggestions about cable fitting. I'll keep it in mind. I
    will have to trim the cable and the housing quite a bit, since the
    as-supplied kit with the grip-shifter may be long enough for a tandem. I
    momentarily contemplated a quixotic routing with the cable wrapped
    around the top tube several times and a few big loops, but then I
    sobered up :).

    -RjC.

    --
    Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
    "In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
    "In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."
     
  9. Dan Burkhart

    Dan Burkhart New Member

    Joined:
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    Ryan. The only possible issue you may encounter is very tight clearance between the cassette joint and the chain where they will cross. The cassette joint arm is designed to fit between the upper and lower run of the chain. On Nexus hubs,(I just took a trip around the shop to look at some of them,) when they are fitted with an outward dished cog, the cassette joint cable stop is actually directly over the chain. I also have an Alfine equipped bike on the floor, and it looks like it would have clearance, although minimal. I'm sure gently tweaking the shape of the arm would be ok, but be aware that might be a possible source of rubbing.
    Other than that, if you have the right combo of no-turn washers to orient the cassette joint in that position, I see no problem.
    Dan Burkhart
    www.boomerbicycle.ca
     
  10. Dan Burkhart

    Dan Burkhart New Member

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Fitting the cable is not so difficult if the cable housing is out of the cable stop when executing it. For cable removal, with the shifter in first, grasp the cable housing near the cassette joint and pull it forward out of the stop. This will roate the spool and give you enough clearance to slip the cable out through the slot.
    To install, simply reverse the proceedure. Insert the cable nut in the slot, route the cable around the spool, pull the housing to rotate it enough to slip the cable through the slot and finally, seat the housing in the cable slot.
    No 2mm hex wrench required.
    Dan Burkhart
    www.boomerbicycle.ca
     
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