All I have is a heart rate monitor...

[GatorTrek]

Disclaimer:

I hold an earned doctorate in another field. I am no genius, but neither am I stupid (unless you ask my wife about certain social issues). I say this because if you guys answer our questions in language we cannot understand, it doesn't help us.

I started cycling at the end of October 2004 on a hybrid. 700 miles and a little less than 3 months later I bought a road bike and a heart rate monitor. Power meters cost more than my Trek 1500. So, if I wish to stay married (and I do) I won't be getting a power meter anytime soon. I am 38 years old, 6'1" (I have lost 1/2" since high school and that ticks me off!), and weight 212 (down from 256!)

Statistics:

I do 70-100 miles per week in about 3 rides per week. My average heart rate is normally 154 over 30 miles. The highest I have seen is 183 (though at this point it is hard to see because I am normally concentrating on breathing in order to live!) I see 155 a lot when I look down and have become relatively comfortable here.

Question:

I don't understand LT but I know that sometimes I get very weak after about 30 minutes trying to keep up with the young flat-bellies at about 20 mph pace. When I look down at this pace I see 160 a lot. I think I am losing something at that point. I can average 18 mph all day long.

1) What should I shoot for as an average either in HR or speed (knowing it will go up and down depending upon whether or not I am on hills)? Should I just ride 30 miles at 17-18 mph average? Should I shoot for 147-150 instead of the 155 I am now averaging in heart rate in order to improve?

2) I have started doing intervals of 60 seconds all out followed by 3 minutes of easy recovery about once a week. What kind of intervals should I be doing and how often?

Request:

I really appreciate all you salty dogs taking time to help us newbie, Lance (or Bobby J!) wannabes but often your responses turn into a debate amongst coaches that we cannot understand. Please reply in laymen's terms to the best of your ability.

Thanks for your help. I anxiously await your informed responses but I am off to the hills of Clermont for a couple of hours of torture on some mongo hills (at least for this sandbar we call Florida!)

 

[triguy98]

There are several excellent books out there that will explain heart rates and the various ways to interpret and utilize the data from them. I would pick one up. Triathlon training books really seem to touch on it a lot, as heart rates are very important during tris and tri training

As far as the gap between you and the younger guys, the best way to bridge it is to ride it. Intervals. You'll be keeping up with them in a couple more months.

 

[davidbod]

I just picked up Chris Carmichael's 'The Ultimate Ride' and I'm about half way through it so far. I use an HR and this book is suited well for training by HR. The thing I like is the workouts are based on a field test HR rather than Max HR. The field test consists of 2 successive 3 mile Time Trials with sufficient recovery between the 2. The average HR for each TT is then used to compute the HR for the workouts in your training. So far I have found the book covers a lot of material and is suitable for recreational riders up to elite athletes.

One thing to point out is your HR monitor needs to be able to give you an average and max over your workout session.

 

[GatorTrek]

I just picked up Chris Carmichael's 'The Ultimate Ride' and I'm about half way through it so far. I use an HR and this book is suited well for training by HR. The thing I like is the workouts are based on a field test HR rather than Max HR. The field test consists of 2 successive 3 mile Time Trials with sufficient recovery between the 2. The average HR for each TT is then used to compute the HR for the workouts in your training. So far I have found the book covers a lot of material and is suitable for recreational riders up to elite athletes.

One thing to point out is your HR monitor needs to be able to give you an average and max over your workout session.

My HR can do average and max over a workout and during intervals. That book sounds like what I need to be reading. I will look for it. Thanks.

 

[GatorTrek]

My HR can do average and max over a workout and during intervals. That book sounds like what I need to be reading. I will look for it. Thanks.

Got The Ultimate Ride by Carmichael today at Borders. Reading it now. Thanks. It seems like a great book. Has a section, like you said, for HR monitor training. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Ciocc Motel]

Joel Friel's "The Cyclist's Training Bible" is also excellent - it should clear up all your questions like it did mine. But like any book - don't treat it like a Bible (pun intended) i.e. it's easy to try one method and decide that it's "the only way" but as you've probably noticed from this forum there are many approaches to training and the main thing is to find techniques that work for you and not follow anyone's doctrine.

 

[GatorTrek]

Joel Friel's "The Cyclist's Training Bible" is also excellent - it should clear up all your questions like it did mine. But like any book - don't treat it like a Bible (pun intended) i.e. it's easy to try one method and decide that it's "the only way" but as you've probably noticed from this forum there are many approaches to training and the main thing is to find techniques that work for you and not follow anyone's doctrine.

Yes, I saw the Training Bible today too. After I read this one I will buy it. I want to read this one a couple of times to digest all the technical terminology and concepts. Thanks for the input.

 

[MikeHains]

Disclaimer:

• Like you, I started training in October, 2004.
• Like you, I started on a mountain bike - and now ride a composite Giant.
• Like you (almost) I am 39, married, and have kids.
• Like you (almost) my maximum heart rate is 180 (measured).

Statistics:

• Unlike you, I do 200-220 miles per week in 4 or 5 rides.
• Unlike you, I train with a coach, and with a group. The coach sets the programme. I do what the coach says.

Results:

• I can now ride by myself (no drafting) at >20mph pace, for >6 hrs;
• I have raced at 2 hours, including rolling hills (and climbs) at average 23mph;
• I can paceline for >30 minutes at 28mph,

... and I hope to keep improving ...

From my own experience:

• I don't think you can set a programme without first setting goals (will you be racing ? or just riding faster with a group ? when ?).
• Fast results are about 2 things: (1) the time spent training, and (2) the quality of that training.
• My own experience ... now as a 'B grade masters' cyclist ... and 20 years ago as a national-level rower ... is that a good coach makes all the difference.

What I am trying to say, I suppose, is that a professional coach and a proper programme can make fast improvement easier.

 

[GatorTrek]

Disclaimer:

• Like you, I started training in October, 2004.
• Like you, I started on a mountain bike - and now ride a composite Giant.
• Like you (almost) I am 39, married, and have kids.
• Like you (almost) my maximum heart rate is 180 (measured).

Statistics:

• Unlike you, I do 200-220 miles per week in 4 or 5 rides.
• Unlike you, I train with a coach, and with a group. The coach sets the programme. I do what the coach says.

Results:

• I can now ride by myself (no drafting) at >20mph pace, for >6 hrs;
• I have raced at 2 hours, including rolling hills (and climbs) at average 23mph;
• I can paceline for >30 minutes at 28mph,

... and I hope to keep improving ...

From my own experience:

• I don't think you can set a programme without first setting goals (will you be racing ? or just riding faster with a group ? when ?).
• Fast results are about 2 things: (1) the time spent training, and (2) the quality of that training.
• My own experience ... now as a 'B grade masters' cyclist ... and 20 years ago as a national-level rower ... is that a good coach makes all the difference.

What I am trying to say, I suppose, is that a professional coach and a proper programme can make fast improvement easier.

Not unexpected that a private coach and 200 miles a week would make for fast improvement. I doubt I will be hiring a private coach or riding 200 miles per week anytime soon. I don't take myself that seriously on the bike. More power to ya.

 

[MikeHains]

Not unexpected that a private coach and 200 miles a week would make for fast improvement. I doubt I will be hiring a private coach or riding 200 miles per week anytime soon. I don't take myself that seriously on the bike. More power to ya.

Hey, I seriously respect everyone who enjoys themselves on two wheels. Regards, MJH

 

[GatorTrek]

Hey, I seriously respect everyone who enjoys themselves on two wheels. Regards, MJH

I respect people that can do what you do to train. Truth be told, I wish I could give the time to do much more mileage and working with a coach would be tremendous. I am sure you will make unbelievable gains if you keep it up. As for me, I just really want to lose these last 15 pounds (and I wouldn't mind getting a little faster )

 

[Chain]

As far as mere weight loss is concerned there is an advice I can give you. I have been using the HR monitor for a few months and have been trying to get some information on that either in Czech language (I am Czech...) or in english.
One general advice has been proven on me. You should set relatively low heart rate zone and keep it for relatively longer period of time.
There is quite a few formulas to determine this target HR one of them being 220-38(your age) * 0,65 which equals some 118 BPM. If you are more trained multiply the age by 0,7 which makes 125 BPM. 125 is supposed to be 65% of your maximum HR...
This counting is definitely not exact but will help you unless you visit sport doctor who will test you and determine your actual lactate curve.
I have not done so as well. I have been using this formula which makes 130 BPM for me ( I am 30). This should be cca middle of the zone where your body uses fat as a fuel opposed to rather an extreme state when it uses somehow better available suggar. "Riding on sugar" at 160 BPM for a longer term leaves you exhausted because the sugar reserve in your blood is limited and has a little positive effect.
Second crucial thing is that your body reaches the mode when it "rides on fat" no sooner than after some 30minutes of excercise. It is better to ride twice for three hours than three times two hours. I started losing weight faster when I changed my rouitine from one hour units to a two hour ones.
I hope I put it an undrestandable manner and you will use this somehow...

 

[GatorTrek]

As far as mere weight loss is concerned there is an advice I can give you. I have been using the HR monitor for a few months and have been trying to get some information on that either in Czech language (I am Czech...) or in english.
One general advice has been proven on me. You should set relatively low heart rate zone and keep it for relatively longer period of time.
There is quite a few formulas to determine this target HR one of them being 220-38(your age) * 0,65 which equals some 118 BPM. If you are more trained multiply the age by 0,7 which makes 125 BPM. 125 is supposed to be 65% of your maximum HR...
This counting is definitely not exact but will help you unless you visit sport doctor who will test you and determine your actual lactate curve.
I have not done so as well. I have been using this formula which makes 130 BPM for me ( I am 30). This should be cca middle of the zone where your body uses fat as a fuel opposed to rather an extreme state when it uses somehow better available suggar. "Riding on sugar" at 160 BPM for a longer term leaves you exhausted because the sugar reserve in your blood is limited and has a little positive effect.
Second crucial thing is that your body reaches the mode when it "rides on fat" no sooner than after some 30minutes of excercise. It is better to ride twice for three hours than three times two hours. I started losing weight faster when I changed my rouitine from one hour units to a two hour ones.
I hope I put it an undrestandable manner and you will use this somehow...

Thanks Chain. I find it fascinating that through the power of the internet I can post a question and interact with someone from the Czech Republic! That is really "cool" as we say here in America (at least us 38 year olds )

I have been reading "The Ultimate Ride" by Carmichael. I wonder if any others might chime in on Chain's advice.

Is it really better to ride longer at lower HR? Today I did 1:10 at an average HR of 156.

Would I do better to ride for 2 hours at 130 BPM? I have read those that agree with Chain and also those that say it is really about calorie deficits and that I burn more calories even after the ride at 156 BPM.

 

[Doctor Morbius]

I started cycling at the end of October 2004 on a hybrid. 700 miles and a little less than 3 months later I bought a road bike and a heart rate monitor. Power meters cost more than my Trek 1500. So, if I wish to stay married (and I do) I won't be getting a power meter anytime soon. I am 38 years old, 6'1" (I have lost 1/2" since high school and that ticks me off!), and weight 212 (down from 256!)

I'm not willing to take the power meter plunge either. Perhaps in a few more years as they become more affordable, just as HRMs have done, I'll get an entry level model.

Congrats on losing the weight. I've actually gained. I've put on 25 lbs in about 18 months as cycling, or any exercise for that matter, makes me ravenously hungry. On October 22nd, 2003 I weighed exactly 225. I'm now around 250.

I do 70-100 miles per week in about 3 rides per week. My average heart rate is normally 154 over 30 miles. The highest I have seen is 183 (though at this point it is hard to see because I am normally concentrating on breathing in order to live!) I see 155 a lot when I look down and have become relatively comfortable here.

My goal for this year was 100 miles per week or 5,000 for the year, but so far I'm way off track. I only have 700 so far. And now I'm down with chronic bronchitis, which I seem to have about 3 times a year anymore. Assuming 4 weeks per month, that 700 miles on the trainer translates into 70 miles per week for 2 1/2 months. Bummer.

I don't understand LT but I know that sometimes I get very weak after about 30 minutes trying to keep up with the young flat-bellies at about 20 mph pace. When I look down at this pace I see 160 a lot. I think I am losing something at that point. I can average 18 mph all day long.

Don't feel bad. I've been cycling for 2 years and can't do that. My best 50 miler was at 17 MPH. However, 20 MPH is out of the question. I can't hold it for more than a few minutes.

As far as Charmichael goes, I'm starting to think his mucho time at 65% training strategy is a load of scheiße. It may work for some but certainly not for those with limited time. I've ordered "The Cyclists Training Bible" from Amazon which should be here in 3 weeks as per Amazon's ususal shipping time frame. Hopefully, it will have some answers as I'm really starting to get discouraged with the results I've obtained so far from cycling.

 

[woodchuck]

I have modeled my program on Joe Friel's Mountain Biker's Training Bible. This will be my second year MTB racing so we will see how I do (i.e. last year I just did unstructured training). I have kept to my plan pretty closely with the exception of a few weeks when traveling shut me out. I found when I started unstructured training last year I lost 15-20 lbs over the season (i.e. went from 158lbs to 140lbs, and am 5'7" at 40yrs). I find that for about 3-4 hours after a ride I have no appetite. This was great when I was in weigh loss mode but now I have to consciously eat on coming back otherwise I don't keep my calories up and I lose more weight. I actually find this amazing because I can't remember having this happen since High School.



Anyway, I found the Mountain Biker's Training Bible quite detailed but hard to understand at first. I had to read it a few times to digest all the info but I think I have a better handle on it now. A coach would be nice but in reality I barely have time to get my rides in as without coordinating with someone else’s schedule.



Another nice online source is at the following link. It has a lot of training info as well as nutrition info etc:



http://www.cptips.com/toc.htm#table



Good luck and have fun.

 

[Chain]

Last two contributions seem explain a lot as far as the weight loss heart rate relation is concerned.
Dr. Morbius has this carbohydrate(sugar) craving after having run out of his sugar supply because he was burning it during his sharp-tempo excercise. I know it too well myself...
Woodchuck has probbably trained his body to a better endurance and his long excercise does not impact his sugar suply that much...
Donť know, truth is that riding on 130BPM or any other constant heart rate on the bike outside is quite hard. I did my first ride yesterday and it is really very different from my stationary bike....Surprise!http://www.cyclingforums.com/images/icons/icon11.gif

 

[Doctor Morbius]

Last two contributions seem explain a lot as far as the weight loss heart rate relation is concerned.
Dr. Morbius has this carbohydrate(sugar) craving after having run out of his sugar supply because he was burning it during his sharp-tempo excercise. I know it too well myself...
Woodchuck has probbably trained his body to a better endurance and his long excercise does not impact his sugar suply that much...
Donť know, truth is that riding on 130BPM or any other constant heart rate on the bike outside is quite hard. I did my first ride yesterday and it is really very different from my stationary bike....Surprise!

I have sugar cravings after the slow long rides too. I've spent plenty of time at around 130 BPM, which is 68% of my known max HR, as per Charmichael. That's why I think that system is a bunch of BS as my speeds haven't increased and my resting HR hasn't decreased despite 8 - 12 hours per week on the bike. In other words, not much fitness gained for the time spent. The only thing all of those long slow miles allowed me to do was a first century. Other than that, phewey. Once I get over this bronchitis I'm going for more intensity.

 

[woodchuck]

My max hours is 9 per week during my build period so I am not doing as much time on the bike a Dr.Morbius. I do not have the time for 12 hrs per week (9 is tough for my schedule). I think I will be OK as I am training for Sport MTB so races are typically 1.25 to 1.75 hours.

I don't know about the endurance miles (I think that is what you are talking about Dr.Morbius). I do about 60% endurance miles with some at 133 (74% of max HR) and some at 143 (79% max HR). My other time is spent on intervals (i.e. 2 minute, 5 minute, and 10 minute intervals with each interval workout being 1 hour total with a 10 minute warm up and 10 minute cool down included in the hour). I will be starting sprint intervals as soon as our road drys out. It is also hard to get all the interval work in. The Training Bible somewhat contradicts itself in that is says to do all these intervals in a week but to ensure you have enough rest between them (i.e. there doesn't appear to be enough hours in the week to get the rest in :^)

I am not sure if my resting HR has fallen because I did not test it prior to starting my training but it is currently at 52 (measured manually right after I wake up in the morning). I think my recovery HR is a bit better than 3-4 months ago but seeing as I have not been methodically measuring it I cannot be sure.

 

[dhk]

I have sugar cravings after the slow long rides too. I've spent plenty of time at around 130 BPM, which is 68% of my known max HR, as per Charmichael. That's why I think that system is a bunch of BS as my speeds haven't increased and my resting HR hasn't decreased despite 8 - 12 hours per week on the bike. In other words, not much fitness gained for the time spent. The only thing all of those long slow miles allowed me to do was a first century. Other than that, phewey. Once I get over this bronchitis I'm going for more intensity.

Doc: Don't be so quick to discount the value of base miles. If your were able to complete your first century with relative comfort, that's a major accomplishment.

In the Armstong/Carmichael "Performance Plan book, Lance states he does his 4-6 hour endurance rides at 120-124 bpm HR (60-62% max). Got to be a reason.

If you've been riding this way for several months, I bet you've gotten significant cardiovascular improvements already. It takes months and thousands of miles to build up the heart, lungs, and plumbing to carry the oxygen and fuel to the working leg muscles and back. You may not be faster in an all out climb, but I bet your ability to recover from harder efforts and hills has improved....meaning you can keep going a lot longer without getting sore legs and having to limp home.

Sure, spring is time to add some intensity, but I say don't drop your base rides either. If you haven't been doing any efforts near or above LT, I'd add those in slowly once or twice a week and see how you're reacting. Around here, hard work can't be avoided because of all the hills. Getting intensity on club rides isn't my problem..it's recovery from the weekend hammerfests.

As you know, our challenge is to find the right mix of intensity, volume and frequency that allows adaptation to training without going overboard. I don't think there are any shortcuts or secrets here.....endurance cycling is a hard sport.

 

[woodchuck]

Yes the mix thing is right. I think that the books give a good starting point. It probably varies with the rider and with the type of riding.