All-rounder frame wanted

Chalo said:

Russell Seato wrote

Quoted message said:

People love to go to endless lengths to add complications to their
lives and then yap about it. I use Campagnolo on my bikes. Only
Campagnolo. No adaptors needed. No complications. It just works
the way its supposed to work.

Not everybody faces the same issues. I know that I get more occasions
to experiment than most cyclists do. But no matter what your
inclinations, I can't see a downside to having frames that can be
built up any way you like. Things like vertical dropouts and 130mm
spaced carbon stays get in the way of that.

I'm waiting for the frame warranty to run out on my Surly. I might
space it to 145 and drop a tandem hub in there. Of course, that's sort
of pointless since I doubt the Halo SpinDoctor hub is going to break
anytime soon. But if I had too...

Which reminds me, I should see if I can regrease the sealed bearings in
the hub. I think it's pretty far down my list though.

--
Dane Buson - [email hidden]
"You are invited to take advantage of the chambermaid."
-In a Japanese Hotel

Ozark Bicycle said:

On May 9, 8:29 am, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

On May 8, 4:31 pm, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On May 8, 4:02 pm, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<snipped for clarity>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> those Kelly take off thumb
> lever things

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Let's be clear, Russell. Kelly Take-offs allow one to mount dead-
simple, ultra reliable down tube levers (or, just the business end of
bar-end levers) in a location close to the brake hoods, a nice touch
for those who want their shifters near their brakes, but don't want
the limitations imposed by STI/Ergo/SRAM. Nothing to do with thumb
shifters, AFAICT. Far from being a "complication", Take-offs allow one
to switch from, say, Campy to Shimano RDs with the mere change of the
RH lever (with the appropriate wheel, of course). Or, to switch
between 7/8/9/10 speed rears with *either* the mere change of the RH
lever *or* (when available, as in Shimano levers) a switch to friction
mode. And, the appropriate change of rear cassette/freewheel.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sounds a lot simpler to me than worrying about getting the correct
brifter or "converting" a brifter to the wanted configuration. Or
rebuilding those brifters _when_ (not if) they fail. Or tossing the
non-rebuildable ones.

Quoted message said:

What do you mean getting the correct brifter?

Getting the "correct brifter" is an issue for many who want to go
from, say, 8 to 9 or 9 to 10.

Quoted message said:

I started with 9 speed
Ergo, Campagnolo rear derailleur, Campagnolo rear hub wheel,
Campagnolo 9 speed cassette. Pretty darn simple. They all work. No
getting the right this or that. Or an adaptor.

But, if you want to "upgrade" to Campy 10, the Ergos need to be
"converted" from 9 to 10. and, it's a one way street, no more using
those 9sp cassettes.

Yes convert the Ergos. But no to no more using 9 speed cassettes.
Shimano people write this. My 9 speed Veloce and Mirage loose cogs
can be substituted into 10 speed Veloce loose cog cassettes perfectly
well. They are the same cogs. Only the offset last cog on 10 speed
cassettes and first cog on 9 and 10 speed cassettes with built in
spacer are different. All the middle ones are identical. So I will
replace the 14 through 21 cogs on my 12-23 10 speed Veloce cassette
with the dirt cheap 14 through 21 cogs from a Mirage 13-23 Mirage 9
speed cassette.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As for rebuildable Ergo, yes they are.

Yeah, pretty much routine maintenence (i.e., they will fail).

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I suppose all of you new
bicyclists who bought bikes because of Lance don't realize maintenance
on bicycles used to be a common thing.

You haven't been riding bike or working on bikes as long as I have,
Russell. Can the [censored].

Really? Then why do you make comments about rebuilding Ergo as if it
is some kind of unbelievable experience? If you truely have
overhauled, maintained loose ball bearing bottom brackets, and
headsets, and hubs then you would not even mention the fact you have
to do maintenance on Ergo shifters once or twice a decade. Just
normal maintenance like all of the other bearing/grease items on a
bike. But new people to bikes who go for Shimano STI and Mavic
cartridge bearing wheels have never maintained bikes. And would think
overhauling Ergo shifters once or twice a decade is some kind of
defect.

Quoted message said:

<snip>- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted post said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

On May 8, 4:02 pm, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I use Campagnolo
> on my bikes. Only Campagnolo. No adaptors needed. No
> complications. It just works the way its supposed to work

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Campagnolo xx-speed only on a given bike. No simple options, no simple
choices.

Quoted message said:

If I start with a Campagnolo 9 speed bike why would I want to change
it? I have 7 speed bar end shifters on a touring bike. Thought about
giong to 9 speed but as you say, no simple options. Have to buy a new
9 speed bar end shifter or 9 speed STI. Have to buy a new freehub
body to change my wheel from 7 speed to 9 speed. Have to redish my
rear wheel. Have to buy a new 9 speed cassette. Have to buy a new 9
speed chain. You speak as if changing the number of cogs on a bike is
simple! Have you ever done it? In the above scenario even if I
switched to friction only, all that would eliminate is buying the new
bar end shifter.

I've done it. Multiple times. To frames so old they had to be respaced,
which I have also done, multiple times.

As you state, old frames. Not frames so new you haven't even bought
the new frame yet. That is a pretty new frame if you haven't even
bought the frame yet.

Quoted message said:

I usually take the shortcut of getting a new rear wheel, since that's
often inexpensive, and I don't think any local shop is likely to have a
freehub in stock. That said, freehubs are easy to change, and the tool
required for wheel respacing is a spoke wrench.

I'm no fan of gear changing for change's sake: my commuter still has the
6x3 drivetrain it was born with (or is it five? I'm not going to check).
You probably have good reasons for staying with 7, and I wouldn't
discourage you from doing so.

But your argument against changing to 9 did remind me of this comic
strip...

WARNING: very bad language, hooker jokes, Olive Garden:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/08/25

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden]://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Quoted message said:

Gary Young said:

Quoted message said:

On May 8, 2:50 pm, Chalo <[email hidden]> wrote:
> russellseaton wrote:

Quoted message said:

> > JennyB wrote:

Quoted message said:

> > > I'm looking for a new steel frame with old-fashioned touring geometry.
> > > It will be for all-year use, sometimes heavily loaded and sometimes on
> > > rough tracks, but generally neither, and not both at the same time.
> > > Enough clearance for 700x35c and mudguards, and with horizontal
> > > dropouts as well as a gear hanger so I can use it with a hub gear,
> > > fixed, or with derailleurs.

Quoted message said:

> > Why? Do you have that much time and energy to change the parts
> > hanging on your bike? You really plan to redo the drivetrain from
> > derailleurs to gear hub to single speed and back again? Wow.

Quoted message said:

> Have you never changed a bike from one speed to something else, or
> vice versa? I have, many times. One of my current rides has had
> seven speeds, eight speeds, and nine speeds with derailleurs, and
> seven speeds with a hub gear. Another one has been a single speed, a
> seven speed, a five speed, an electric bike with two separate one-
> speed drivetrains, and then a single speed again.

Quoted message said:

> Now that I reflect on it, all but one or two of my transportational
> bikes have had more than one configuration of drivetrain on them.
> Others have switched between coaster brakes and hub gears. When
> switching around like that, it really helps to have horizontal dropout
> slots. And when not switching parts around, they still don't hurt
> anything.

Quoted message said:

> For all we know, you could be some sort of unimaginative weirdo who
> never messes with his bikes to change them around. I guess that's the
> implication of your question. What's wrong with you? Are you
> disabled or something?

Quoted message said:

> Chalo

Quoted message said:

I spend too much of my time riding my bikes to spend changing entire
drivetrains. I have a fixed gear bike. I bought a cheap old frame
with horizontal dropouts and made it a fixed gear bike. It will
always be a fixed gear bike. I have derailleur bikes. They will
always be derailleur bikes. Since they started as 9 or 10 speed, I
doubt I will ever change them to other numbers of gears. I've never
been one of these jack of all trades bike people. One bike does not
do everything well. Get a good bike for its purpose and enjoy it. If
you have a different purpose in mind, get a bike best suited for that
purpose and enjoy it.

The OP may be an apartment dweller who doesn't have room for a stable of
bikes. Or doesn't have the funds.

But an apartment dweller would have the space for a workshop area to
do all of this drivetrain switching?

Kitchen.

Quoted message said:

And the funds to have complete
sets of drivetrains to switch back and forth on the bike?

Cheaper than whole bikes.

Quoted message said:

Stable of
bikes? One derailleur bike and one fixed/single speed bike.

That may be enough for you, but I thought we were talking about the OP,
whose needs or interests were broader than that.

Quoted message said:

A little
harder to store than one bike, but not much harder to store two
bikes.

The bulkiest thing about a drive-train change is the rear wheel.

Quoted message said:

And fixed gear bikes can be put together real cheap. Old used
junk frame and fork. Old freewheel wheel with a single cog and
spacers.

Ultimately, I guess I don't understand why you object to the OP's plans.
You said earlier that it's all about enjoying the bike. For you, that
means riding instead of maintenance. But other people really, really enjoy
working on bikes, at least part of the time.

On May 9, 2:30 pm, "[email hidden]"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

<snipped>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I suppose all of you new
bicyclists who bought bikes because of Lance don't realize maintenance
on bicycles used to be a common thing.

Quoted message said:

You haven't been riding bike or working on bikes as long as I have,
Russell. Can the [censored].

Really? Then why do you make comments about rebuilding Ergo as if it
is some kind of unbelievable experience?

Not _unbelievable_, but _unnecessary_, caused by the poor design of an
unneeded degree of complexity. But I guess *you* weren't around back
when shift lever failure was practically unheard of.

Quoted message said:

If you truely have
overhauled, maintained loose ball bearing bottom brackets, and
headsets, and hubs then you would not even mention the fact you have
to do maintenance on Ergo shifters once or twice a decade. Just
normal maintenance like all of the other bearing/grease items on a
bike.

Utter [censored].

Quoted message said:

But new people to bikes who go for Shimano STI and Mavic
cartridge bearing wheels have never maintained bikes. And would think
overhauling Ergo shifters once or twice a decade is some kind of
defect.

Shift levers that routinely fail are of poor design. The fact that one
such poor design (Ergo) is repairable and another poor design (STI) is
only disposable does not change that fact.

"Gary Young" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But an apartment dweller would have the space for a workshop area to
do all of this drivetrain switching?

Kitchen.

LOL, good one Gary!
-tom

Ozark Bicycle said:

Shift levers that routinely fail are of poor design. The fact that one
such poor design (Ergo) is repairable and another poor design (STI) is
only disposable does not change that fact.

Sad but true-- and such crappy shifters are woefully pervasive these
days. I have index thumbies from the late '80s that have been in
regular use since then with _no mechanical attention whatsoever_. It
ain't good bidness for Sh*mano, but it's good economy for you and
me.

Chalo

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tom Nakashima said:

"Gary Young" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But an apartment dweller would have the space for a workshop area to
do all of this drivetrain switching?

Kitchen.

LOL, good one Gary!
-tom

He's not joking, is he?

My house is less than 900 sq. ft. In the winter, I build bikes either in
the kitchen or in the spare room.

As you can imagine, this goes over like a lead balloon with the lady of
the house.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tom Nakashima said:

"Gary Young" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

>
> But an apartment dweller would have the space for a workshop area to
> do all of this drivetrain switching?

Kitchen.

LOL, good one Gary!
-tom

He's not joking, is he?

Nope. I have a basement workroom now, but when I lived in NYC, I made do
with whatever room I could spare in various shoebox-sized apartments.

Quoted message said:

My house is less than 900 sq. ft. In the winter, I build bikes either in
the kitchen or in the spare room.

As you can imagine, this goes over like a lead balloon with the lady of
the house.

-snip gear lever discussion

Quoted message said:

On May 9, 8:29 am, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

I started with 9 speed
Ergo, Campagnolo rear derailleur, Campagnolo rear hub wheel,
Campagnolo 9 speed cassette. Pretty darn simple. They all work. No
getting the right this or that. Or an adaptor.

Ozark Bicycle said:

But, if you want to "upgrade" to Campy 10, the Ergos need to be
"converted" from 9 to 10. and, it's a one way street, no more using
those 9sp cassettes.

-snip gratuitously rude-

A Campagnolo Ten ergo can shift a nine with no difficulties. Make sure
the limit screw obviates spoke mating.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

-snip much-

Quoted message said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

Quoted message said:

I suppose all of you new
bicyclists who bought bikes because of Lance don't realize maintenance
on bicycles used to be a common thing.

You haven't been riding bike or working on bikes as long as I have,
Russell. Can the [censored].

Quoted message said:

Really? Then why do you make comments about rebuilding Ergo as if it
is some kind of unbelievable experience? If you truely have
overhauled, maintained loose ball bearing bottom brackets, and
headsets, and hubs then you would not even mention the fact you have
to do maintenance on Ergo shifters once or twice a decade. Just
normal maintenance like all of the other bearing/grease items on a
bike. But new people to bikes who go for Shimano STI and Mavic
cartridge bearing wheels have never maintained bikes. And would think
overhauling Ergo shifters once or twice a decade is some kind of
defect.

And Russel isn't a pro mechanic AFAIK. I'm ready to race anyone, even
the otherworldly Bill Cotton. Me rebuilding a worn Ergo, other guy
rebuilding a worn DA STi.

We sell Ergo spring sets to regular guys who manage their rebuilds
without much trouble or prior experience. It just isn't rocket science.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

A Muzi said:

-snip much-

Quoted message said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

> I suppose all of you new
> bicyclists who bought bikes because of Lance don't realize maintenance
> on bicycles used to be a common thing.
You haven't been riding bike or working on bikes as long as I have,
Russell. Can the [censored].

Quoted message said:

Really? Then why do you make comments about rebuilding Ergo as if it
is some kind of unbelievable experience? If you truely have
overhauled, maintained loose ball bearing bottom brackets, and
headsets, and hubs then you would not even mention the fact you have
to do maintenance on Ergo shifters once or twice a decade. Just
normal maintenance like all of the other bearing/grease items on a
bike. But new people to bikes who go for Shimano STI and Mavic
cartridge bearing wheels have never maintained bikes. And would think
overhauling Ergo shifters once or twice a decade is some kind of
defect.

And Russel isn't a pro mechanic AFAIK. I'm ready to race anyone, even
the otherworldly Bill Cotton. Me rebuilding a worn Ergo, other guy
rebuilding a worn DA STi.

We sell Ergo spring sets to regular guys who manage their rebuilds
without much trouble or prior experience. It just isn't rocket science.
--

Right, Andrew, it ain't rocket science. What it *is* is the much more
frequent failure of a component category (shift levers) where failure
once was exceedingly rare. IMO, it's representative of poor design and/
or an overly complex component. YMMV.

-30-

In article <[email hidden]>,

Gary Young said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tom Nakashima said:

"Gary Young" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>>
>> But an apartment dweller would have the space for a workshop area to
>> do all of this drivetrain switching?
>
> Kitchen.

LOL, good one Gary!
-tom

He's not joking, is he?

Nope. I have a basement workroom now, but when I lived in NYC, I made do
with whatever room I could spare in various shoebox-sized apartments.

Quoted message said:

My house is less than 900 sq. ft. In the winter, I build bikes either in
the kitchen or in the spare room.

As you can imagine, this goes over like a lead balloon with the lady of
the house.

Oh right, I forgot about the best NYC apartment bike-project ever:

http://www.nyvelocity.com/content.php?id=1300

He built a wind tunnel big enough to fit a bike and rider in his
apartment.

First thought: that has to be the biggest apartment in NYC short of some
plutocratic penthouses.

Best comment:

Once again, you provide the rest of us with an example we can point to
when our wives/girlfriends/significant others complain about buying a
new bike, or another set of wheels. We can always just direct her
attention your way, and say "Honey, at least I am not doing [Insert
Andy's Latest Project Here], this takes up 1/10th the space that does."

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

A Muzi said:

-snip gear lever discussion

Quoted message said:

On May 9, 8:29 am, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

I started with 9 speed
Ergo, Campagnolo rear derailleur, Campagnolo rear hub wheel,
Campagnolo 9 speed cassette. Pretty darn simple. They all work. No
getting the right this or that. Or an adaptor.

Ozark Bicycle said:

But, if you want to "upgrade" to Campy 10, the Ergos need to be
"converted" from 9 to 10. and, it's a one way street, no more using
those 9sp cassettes.

-snip gratuitously rude-

???

Quoted message said:

A Campagnolo Ten ergo can shift a nine with no difficulties. Make sure
the limit screw obviates spoke mating.

I allowed this to become Campy 9/10 specific, mea culpa. My point was
that brifters make drivetrain changes all the more complex and costly.
In both the rear and the front. Not in all cases in all brands. But
all too often.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

-snip much-

Quoted message said:

Ozark Bicycle <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> I suppose all of you new
>> bicyclists who bought bikes because of Lance don't realize maintenance
>> on bicycles used to be a common thing.
> You haven't been riding bike or working on bikes as long as I have,
> Russell. Can the [censored].

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Really? Then why do you make comments about rebuilding Ergo as if it
is some kind of unbelievable experience? If you truely have
overhauled, maintained loose ball bearing bottom brackets, and
headsets, and hubs then you would not even mention the fact you have
to do maintenance on Ergo shifters once or twice a decade. Just
normal maintenance like all of the other bearing/grease items on a
bike. But new people to bikes who go for Shimano STI and Mavic
cartridge bearing wheels have never maintained bikes. And would think
overhauling Ergo shifters once or twice a decade is some kind of
defect.

Quoted message said:

A Muzi said:

And Russel isn't a pro mechanic AFAIK. I'm ready to race anyone, even
the otherworldly Bill Cotton. Me rebuilding a worn Ergo, other guy
rebuilding a worn DA STi.
We sell Ergo spring sets to regular guys who manage their rebuilds
without much trouble or prior experience. It just isn't rocket science.

Ozark Bicycle said:

Right, Andrew, it ain't rocket science. What it *is* is the much more
frequent failure of a component category (shift levers) where failure
once was exceedingly rare. IMO, it's representative of poor design and/
or an overly complex component. YMMV.

I think you're saying, 'Ergos may be pick of the litter but the field is
a bunch of dogs.'. OK, I can't say you are wrong about that.

If Modolo, SRAM, Shimano and Campagnolo can't/won't make an integrated
lever as dependable as a 1983 DA-6 SIS, why don't you just make one,
dominate the category and make a bazillion dollars?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

-snip much-
> Ozark Bicycle <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>> I suppose all of you new
>>> bicyclists who bought bikes because of Lance don't realize maintenance
>>> on bicycles used to be a common thing.
>> You haven't been riding bike or working on bikes as long as I have,
>> Russell. Can the [censored].
[email hidden] wrote:
> Really? Then why do you make comments about rebuilding Ergo as if it
> is some kind of unbelievable experience? If you truely have
> overhauled, maintained loose ball bearing bottom brackets, and
> headsets, and hubs then you would not even mention the fact you have
> to do maintenance on Ergo shifters once or twice a decade. Just
> normal maintenance like all of the other bearing/grease items on a
> bike. But new people to bikes who go for Shimano STI and Mavic
> cartridge bearing wheels have never maintained bikes. And would think
> overhauling Ergo shifters once or twice a decade is some kind of
> defect.

A Muzi said:

And Russel isn't a pro mechanic AFAIK. I'm ready to race anyone, even
the otherworldly Bill Cotton. Me rebuilding a worn Ergo, other guy
rebuilding a worn DA STi.
We sell Ergo spring sets to regular guys who manage their rebuilds
without much trouble or prior experience. It just isn't rocket science.

Ozark Bicycle said:

Right, Andrew, it ain't rocket science. What it *is* is the much more
frequent failure of a component category (shift levers) where failure
once was exceedingly rare. IMO, it's representative of poor design and/
or an overly complex component. YMMV.

I think you're saying, 'Ergos may be pick of the litter but the field is
a bunch of dogs.'. OK, I can't say you are wrong about that.

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

Quoted message said:

If Modolo, SRAM, Shimano and Campagnolo can't/won't make an integrated
lever as dependable as a 1983 DA-6 SIS, why don't you just make one,
dominate the category and make a bazillion dollars?

I'm not making that sorta claim. It's entirely possible, even likely,
that failure is inherent in such a needlessly complex shift mechanism.
If so, packaging such a device together with an inherently reliable
device like a brake lever is kinda like packaging a VCR in the same
chassis with a TV. Stupid. Especially stupid if the shift component is
essentially unserviceable.

IMO, with the possible exception of racing applications, brifters as
we know them are entirely unnecessary. The recreational cyclist is
better served with designs patterned after the old Suntour Command
shifters or DT shifter adapters such as Kelly Takeoffs. Or Barends.
And, "flat bar" users are certainly better served with good ol'
thumbshifters. Again, YMMV.

Ozark Bicycle said:

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

> -snip much-
>> Ozark Bicycle <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>> I suppose all of you new
>>>> bicyclists who bought bikes because of Lance don't realize maintenance
>>>> on bicycles used to be a common thing.
>>> You haven't been riding bike or working on bikes as long as I have,
>>> Russell. Can the [censored].
> [email hidden] wrote:
>> Really? Then why do you make comments about rebuilding Ergo as if it
>> is some kind of unbelievable experience? If you truely have
>> overhauled, maintained loose ball bearing bottom brackets, and
>> headsets, and hubs then you would not even mention the fact you have
>> to do maintenance on Ergo shifters once or twice a decade. Just
>> normal maintenance like all of the other bearing/grease items on a
>> bike. But new people to bikes who go for Shimano STI and Mavic
>> cartridge bearing wheels have never maintained bikes. And would think
>> overhauling Ergo shifters once or twice a decade is some kind of
>> defect.
A Muzi <[email hidden]> wrote:
> And Russel isn't a pro mechanic AFAIK. I'm ready to race anyone, even
> the otherworldly Bill Cotton. Me rebuilding a worn Ergo, other guy
> rebuilding a worn DA STi.
> We sell Ergo spring sets to regular guys who manage their rebuilds
> without much trouble or prior experience. It just isn't rocket science.

Ozark Bicycle said:

Right, Andrew, it ain't rocket science. What it *is* is the much more
frequent failure of a component category (shift levers) where failure
once was exceedingly rare. IMO, it's representative of poor design and/
or an overly complex component. YMMV.

I think you're saying, 'Ergos may be pick of the litter but the field is
a bunch of dogs.'. OK, I can't say you are wrong about that.

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

Quoted message said:

If Modolo, SRAM, Shimano and Campagnolo can't/won't make an integrated
lever as dependable as a 1983 DA-6 SIS, why don't you just make one,
dominate the category and make a bazillion dollars?

I'm not making that sorta claim. It's entirely possible, even likely,
that failure is inherent in such a needlessly complex shift mechanism.

failure is indeed inherent in the campy shifter mechanism, but it's not
complexity, it's "oversight" of an elementary design flaw - a stress
riser in the root of the shifting collar post. eliminate that riser and
you'll push campy shifter failure mileage up by ten-fold.

Quoted message said:

If so, packaging such a device together with an inherently reliable
device like a brake lever is kinda like packaging a VCR in the same
chassis with a TV. Stupid. Especially stupid if the shift component is
essentially unserviceable.

IMO, with the possible exception of racing applications, brifters as
we know them are entirely unnecessary. The recreational cyclist is
better served with designs patterned after the old Suntour Command
shifters or DT shifter adapters such as Kelly Takeoffs. Or Barends.
And, "flat bar" users are certainly better served with good ol'
thumbshifters. Again, YMMV.

-snip Ergo service-

Quoted message said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

If so, packaging such a device together with an inherently reliable
device like a brake lever is kinda like packaging a VCR in the same
chassis with a TV. Stupid. Especially stupid if the shift component is
essentially unserviceable.

IMO, with the possible exception of racing applications, brifters as
we know them are entirely unnecessary. The recreational cyclist is
better served with designs patterned after the old Suntour Command
shifters or DT shifter adapters such as Kelly Takeoffs. Or Barends.
And, "flat bar" users are certainly better served with good ol'
thumbshifters. Again, YMMV.

jim beam said:

failure is indeed inherent in the campy shifter mechanism, but it's not
complexity, it's "oversight" of an elementary design flaw - a stress
riser in the root of the shifting collar post. eliminate that riser and
you'll push campy shifter failure mileage up by ten-fold.

True. The dies-cast carrier was replaced by a much better carbon spring
carrier two years ago and a completely different mechanism debuted last
autumn.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

A Muzi said:

-snip Ergo service-

Quoted message said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

If so, packaging such a device together with an inherently reliable
device like a brake lever is kinda like packaging a VCR in the same
chassis with a TV. Stupid. Especially stupid if the shift component is
essentially unserviceable.

IMO, with the possible exception of racing applications, brifters as
we know them are entirely unnecessary. The recreational cyclist is
better served with designs patterned after the old Suntour Command
shifters or DT shifter adapters such as Kelly Takeoffs. Or Barends.
And, "flat bar" users are certainly better served with good ol'
thumbshifters. Again, YMMV.

jim beam said:

failure is indeed inherent in the campy shifter mechanism, but it's not
complexity, it's "oversight" of an elementary design flaw - a stress
riser in the root of the shifting collar post. eliminate that riser and
you'll push campy shifter failure mileage up by ten-fold.

True. The dies-cast carrier was replaced by a much better carbon spring
carrier two years ago and a completely different mechanism debuted last
autumn.

got pics?

Ozark Bicycle said:

IMO, with the possible exception of racing applications, brifters as
we know them are entirely unnecessary. The recreational cyclist is
better served with designs patterned after the old Suntour Command
shifters or DT shifter adapters such as Kelly Takeoffs. Or Barends.
And, "flat bar" users are certainly better served with good ol'
thumbshifters. Again, YMMV.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You obviously don't remember when you started cycling and taking the
hands off the bars to use the downtube shifter was a scary
proposition. Having the brifters under your hands is very reassuring
for beginners.

Maybe proper shifting will be learnt earlier because it is only one
skill to learn at a time.