Altitude - long term effects & planning



DancenMacabre

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Jul 17, 2009
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Time to revisit the altitude question I am afraid. Some time ago I created a post here about this subject. Now I have to do this again with a new twist: long term effects of living/training/riding at altitude. Guess I know a lot more about my FTP + power concepts (TSS, IF, NP, yadda yadda) too so I have more specific questions.Let's start with the basics: present altitude = sea level, new altitude as of next month = 1750m, length of stay is > 1 year

I did this before once for a few weeks and I was gasping like a couch potato almost the entire time I was there it seemed! :eek::eek: Plus it sure felt like I got sore easily and stayed that way for hella longer than I do here.

There are the questions I wish to ask of the readers please:


  • If you were moving from 0 to 1750m in 4 weeks, would you do anything different/unusual with your current sea level training mix and regimen???? Build CTL as high as possible? Lots of level 5 workouts? Avoid level 5 workouts?? Anything come to mind?


  • Now once you start living at 1750m, would you emphasize anything special in the training mix?


  • Vo2max is lowerer at altitude because of less oxygen, so you workout at a relatively lower intensity. Does that mean you ought to due more level 5 (or 6) work to raise the absolute intensity + trying to boost vo2max?


  • I read about the live high-train low idea. Sounds great in theory but not so easy in real life. What kind of difference in altitude would you need betwen the live high part and the train low part to achieve some benefit? Would traveling somewhere lower every so often and doing a Level 5 or 4 workout do the trick??


  • Also read that lean muscle mass decreases when you live high. I know, I know, weights don't make you faster on a bike (for enduro stuff). But does that change if you are living at 1700, 1800m and trying to preserve your lean muscle mass???


  • Should you expect to have to lower CTL since recovery feels so slow at altitude? Or maintain a lower CTL? Does that make sense? I know FTP is gonna have to be lowered by some amount right off the bat.


  • Bummed about watching my figures go backwards :(:(:( Living up high + racing locally, can you expect racers to have lower w/kg than the power profile charts from the book say?
Worked my tail off for the last 6 months to get to a little bit over 3w/kg (205/66). Yea yea, I know most of y'all prolly jumped on a bike for the first time ever and could do 3.5w/kg but I just wanna preserve what I got so far. Getting better too would be nice!!!
 
DancenMacabre said:
....I have more specific questions.Let's start with the basics: present altitude = sea level, new altitude as of next month = 1750m, length of stay is > 1 year...
I've recently gone the other way with a move to sea level after a decade at roughly 1800 meters I don't have power data from back in the day when I also lived at sea level, but I have plenty of data from the last several years before my move back to the lowlands. Yes, sustainable metabolic power is typically lower at the kind of altitude you're talking about. But you're not so far along your development curve that you're likely to see a big drop, more likely the growth rate will slow for a while as you're adjusting but I seriously doubt you're anywhere near your potential at either sea level or altitude after half a season of structured training.

FWIW, when I returned to cycling after more than a decade away from the sport (with no spectacular performances back in the day either) I was living up high and I struggled to complete 20 minute intervals at 220 watts, three seasons of structured training later I broke 300 watts regularly and topped out at 313 watts for the same duration at the same altitude. With my move to sea level I went up roughly another 10 watts and hit those numbers more frequently but the difference is only a few percent at most. The point is that you're just starting down a very long path in terms of building sustainable power, the move to altitude may affect the numbers a bit but probably not as dramatically as you might think given that you're still near the steep end of the development curve and have lots of room to grow.

...If you were moving from 0 to 1750m in 4 weeks, would you do anything different/unusual with your current sea level training mix and regimen????...
No, just keep training
...Now once you start living at 1750m, would you emphasize anything special in the training mix?...
No, except paying attention to hydration especially when you first arrive, expect to feel decent on arrival and then pretty lousy during your workouts for the first couple of weeks and then a return to more normal energy levels after you adjust. Rest well, pay attention to nutrition and hydration, maybe lighten the training load a bit during the adjustment period but then get back on the program with possible adjustments to power levels but still in an 'alls you can do is alls you can do' sort of way.
...Vo2max is lowerer at altitude because of less oxygen, so you workout at a relatively lower intensity. Does that mean you ought to due more level 5 (or 6) work to raise the absolute intensity + trying to boost vo2max?..
Well, there's actually plenty of O2, just less air pressure but it comes to more or less the same thing. But no, I wouldn't shift to a VO2 Max focus or a 'pull up' strategy based on the move to altitude. Personally other than an occasional L5 block to break up the monotony and to challenge yourself a bit I'd suggest focusing far more on L4/SST work for quite some time. It's very unlikely you're anywhere near your VO2 Max induced ceiling at this point in your training and I'd strongly suggest riding the L4/SST train an awful lot further before shifting to high end work. Three weeks does not an FTP plateau make...
...I read about the live high-train low idea. Sounds great in theory but not so easy in real life. What kind of difference in altitude would you need betwen the live high part and the train low part to achieve some benefit? Would traveling somewhere lower every so often and doing a Level 5 or 4 workout do the trick??...
I'd want to drop 1000 meters or so for substantially different training environment, but that may or may not be practical. During the time I lived in Wyoming I did a fair amount of work travel to lower elevations and always jumped on training opportunities while down low even if it was just hotel gym bikes. I always felt those helped and I could push myself pretty hard on those short trips.
...Also read that lean muscle mass decreases when you live high. I know, I know, weights don't make you faster on a bike (for enduro stuff). But does that change if you are living at 1700, 1800m and trying to preserve your lean muscle mass???...
No
...Should you expect to have to lower CTL since recovery feels so slow at altitude? Or maintain a lower CTL? Does that make sense? I know FTP is gonna have to be lowered by some amount right off the bat....
No, CTL is determined more than anything else by available training time and your overall training philosophy in terms of typical ride IF. Altitude shouldn't really change that and as you pointed out your FTP adjustment with altitude more or less normalizes TSS and CTL targets. I've held higher CTL at altitude than I currently do at sea level but that has more to do with available training time and the high quality training venues (translate lots of low traffic roads sans intersections and long sustained climbs) that minimized junk miles that I had back in Wyoming.
... Living up high + racing locally, can you expect racers to have lower w/kg than the power profile charts from the book say?
That's the good news, whether the charts change much, the local racers are in the same boat, if you're competitive at sea level then you'll typically be competitive at altitude once you acclimate. Realistically once I got my power up a bit and my race tactics dusted off I did pretty well even when I traveled to races at lower elevations even if I was at a theoretical disadvantage. IOW, train and develop your racing skills but don't worry about losing ground when you return to the lowlands. If anything an acclimated racer living and training at altitude has a bigger advantage over visiting lowland racers than the lowland racers have over them at sea level.

Good luck,
-Dave
 
I'm impressed with the level of dedication, but if you're going to be there for over a year then live your life and ride your bike as you normally would. A year is too long to be worrying about specific focuses for training, techniques and whatnot -- you're going to go through at least a complete macrocycle, along with all the shifts in focus and event preparation that that entails.

IMO, it sounds as if you might be making a mountain out of a molehill. :D
 
Agree, it's not that big a deal. Power will be lower at high density altitudes, but the air resistance is also reduced by the same amount so speed on flats shouldn't be affected much as a result. And remember that density is a function of air temp, baro pressure and humdity as well as altitude. On a hot humid day Alabama day, 600 ft elevation can become a density altitude of ~3000 ft.

We went from 600 ft elevation here to ride in the NM and CO mountains this summer, spending a week at Keystone where the elevation was 9200 ft. The effects on the bike really seemed minimal. In fact, breathing felt easier in the dry 60F air at 10K feet than it does here in the 95F summer humidity. Of course, keeping cool in those conditions is much easier; maybe that's the reason the altitude didn't seem to make riding harder.

One thing I noticed was when taking a pull on the water bottle, breathing suddenly became a priority. Also, when we got back to the house after the rides, climbing the flight of stairs to the main level seemed to leave everyone lightheaded....and that was before the hot tub and wine:)
 
Dave: great, Great, GREAT stuff! I know you have a hella good understanding of the theory but having done the high altitude/sea level move yourself makes the tips a real bonus. I like getting the personal experience side of it. Very helpful. Thank you as always :D:D:D:D

A few observations:


  • daveryanwyoming said:
    But no, I wouldn't shift to a VO2 Max focus or a 'pull up' strategy based on the move to altitude. Personally other than an occasional L5 block to break up the monotony and to challenge yourself a bit I'd suggest focusing far more on L4/SST work for quite some time. It's very unlikely you're anywhere near your VO2 Max induced ceiling at this point in your training and I'd strongly suggest riding the L4/SST train an awful lot further before shifting to high end work. Three weeks does not an FTP plateau make...
    You got me with that one about the 3 weeks! The level 5 works feels like a good challenge right now. Like you say it is a break for me in what had been a strict L4/L3/SST-only diet. You say that I should ride lots more L4/SST intensity - is that even more true at high altitude??? Tried to make sense of this point but all I can come up with is that it has to do with the whole relative vs. absolute intensity angle. With power down prolly in the 10% range, I figure 85-90% of sea level FTP is 75-85% of 1800m FTP and you can do lotsa of that training, racking up tons of CTL - much more volume/CTL than by doing 90% of sea level FTP which = 100% of 1800m FTP.


  • daveryanwyoming said:
    I'd want to drop 1000 meters or so for substantially different training environment, but that may or may not be practical. During the time I lived in Wyoming I did a fair amount of work travel to lower elevations and always jumped on training opportunities while down low even if it was just hotel gym bikes. I always felt those helped and I could push myself pretty hard on those short trips.
    Dropping 1000 meters, hmmm, might be possible but it would be a drive. Any techniques you used in Wyoming like avoiding real high altitude (big mountain climbs)??? training as low as possible locally??? I read some stuff in a book called high performance cycling by Asker Jeukendrup. He talks about maybe 5 diff. styles of training. high/high, high/low (driving), high/low (extra oxygen in bottles), low/high, etc. Says that the data are not conclusive on the best way...





  • daveryanwyoming said:
    FWIW, when I returned to cycling after more than a decade away from the sport (with no spectacular performances back in the day either) I was living up high and I struggled to complete 20 minute intervals at 220 watts, three seasons of structured training later I broke 300 watts regularly and topped out at 313 watts for the same duration at the same altitude.
    Awesome gains! I would be over the moon 3 times if in a coupla years I went from 205 to 313!! :):):):)


  • frenchyge said:
    I'm impressed with the level of dedication, but if you're going to be there for over a year then live your life and ride your bike as you normally would. A year is too long to be worrying about specific focuses for training, techniques and whatnot -- you're going to go through at least a complete macrocycle, along with all the shifts in focus and event preparation that that entails. IMO, it sounds as if you might be making a mountain out of a molehill. :D
    Thanks frenchyge :) Prolly overthinking it all yeah but I am trying to make the best of my very very very modest talents. No sky high vo2max, no killer sprint, yadda yadda, gotta be smarter than most b'cause the natural talent sure aint going to take me far. :eek:
 
DancenMacabre said:
...You say that I should ride lots more L4/SST intensity - is that even more true at high altitude??? Tried to make sense of this point but all I can come up with is that it has to do with the whole relative vs. absolute intensity angle. With power down prolly in the 10% range, I figure 85-90% of sea level FTP is 75-85% of 1800m FTP and you can do lotsa of that training, racking up tons of CTL - much more volume/CTL than by doing 90% of sea level FTP which = 100% of 1800m FTP....
Wow, you really are overthinking this stuff. The big point I'm trying to make (and it seems frenchge and dhk2 are making) is to just keep training in a long term and sustainable way with no special adjustments for the move to altitude beyond expecting and allowing for an acclimatization period when you first get up there.

Don't try to micromanage this and don't worry about your last couple of percent of theoretical performance when you still have the big gains to make through good solid training.

You seem to be losing sight of the forest for the trees. Keep riding, keep training do what you can do regardless of the local altitude and stick with a program for the long term instead of looking for magic bullets and quick fixes.

IMO that means a whole lot more SST/L4 work than L5 and higher work over the next couple of years regardless of where you're living.

Good luck,
-Dave
 
Ok, Ok, got it! More riding, fewer stratagems. :D:D:D:D Prolly not the first newbie who got lost in this power training forest with daydreams of some slick w/kg cure-all scheme!!! Thanks for the great answers. Much much appreciated. :)
 
DancenMacabre said:
Ok, Ok, got it! More riding, fewer stratagems. :D:D:D:D Prolly not the first newbie who got lost in this power training forest with daydreams of some slick w/kg cure-all scheme!!! Thanks for the great answers. Much much appreciated. :)

As someone who's moving to 6000 ft in the next month and is somewhat new to training with/by power, I appreciate you asking the question. The advice on this thread is sound and in line with what many have told me ... just keep riding, maybe mentally recalibrate PE to a new (lower) wattage but, after some time to acclimate and recover from the move of course, proceed with the plan as you would at sea level.
 
DancenMacabre said:
If you were moving from 0 to 1750m in 4 weeks, would you do anything different/unusual with your current sea level training mix and regimen???? Build CTL as high as possible? Lots of level 5 workouts? Avoid level 5 workouts?? Anything come to mind?

My 2 cents worth:

-Take a SWAG at your FTP decrease due to altitude. I think that Howe's guide says something like 10% non-acclimatized and 5% acclimatized.
-Plug in the non-acclimatized number when you first move to altitude to track your TSS/ATL/CTL.
-After being at altitude for 2-4 weeks, retest FTP. Use that number and continue your training as you were at sea level.

Keep it simple. At a minimum, I recommend folks retest their FTP when conditions change: seasonally to account for temp/humidity or large decrease in fitness after a layoff. Moving to altitude certainly counts as change in condition.
 
DancenMacabre said:
Time to revisit the altitude question I am afraid. Some time ago I created a post here about this subject. Now I have to do this again with a new twist: long term effects of living/training/riding at altitude. Guess I know a lot more about my FTP + power concepts (TSS, IF, NP, yadda yadda) too so I have more specific questions.Let's start with the basics: present altitude = sea level, new altitude as of next month = 1750m, length of stay is > 1 year

I did this before once for a few weeks and I was gasping like a couch potato almost the entire time I was there it seemed! :eek::eek: Plus it sure felt like I got sore easily and stayed that way for hella longer than I do here.

There are the questions I wish to ask of the readers please:


  • If you were moving from 0 to 1750m in 4 weeks, would you do anything different/unusual with your current sea level training mix and regimen???? Build CTL as high as possible? Lots of level 5 workouts? Avoid level 5 workouts?? Anything come to mind?

  • Now once you start living at 1750m, would you emphasize anything special in the training mix?

  • Vo2max is lowerer at altitude because of less oxygen, so you workout at a relatively lower intensity. Does that mean you ought to due more level 5 (or 6) work to raise the absolute intensity + trying to boost vo2max?

  • I read about the live high-train low idea. Sounds great in theory but not so easy in real life. What kind of difference in altitude would you need betwen the live high part and the train low part to achieve some benefit? Would traveling somewhere lower every so often and doing a Level 5 or 4 workout do the trick??


  • Also read that lean muscle mass decreases when you live high. I know, I know, weights don't make you faster on a bike (for enduro stuff). But does that change if you are living at 1700, 1800m and trying to preserve your lean muscle mass???

  • Should you expect to have to lower CTL since recovery feels so slow at altitude? Or maintain a lower CTL? Does that make sense? I know FTP is gonna have to be lowered by some amount right off the bat.

  • Bummed about watching my figures go backwards :(:(:( Living up high + racing locally, can you expect racers to have lower w/kg than the power profile charts from the book say?
Worked my tail off for the last 6 months to get to a little bit over 3w/kg (205/66). Yea yea, I know most of y'all prolly jumped on a bike for the first time ever and could do 3.5w/kg but I just wanna preserve what I got so far. Getting better too would be nice!!!

5700ft - that's getting up there. Anywhere nice?

I'd be more keen to brush up on the descending skills if you're going to be living in the mountains than worrying about training levels. Can't train too well if you fall off :p

What I find is that once I hit the hills there's massive motivation to lose weight - that'll improve your power/weight ratio in a very short order. The pain of suffering greatly reduced the desire for that extra cookie or beer...

... that said, it's been about 5 months since I went up a hill and stocks in Sierra Nevada and Lagunitas are probably hitting all time highs!
 
swampy1970 said:
5700ft - that's getting up there. Anywhere nice?

I'd be more keen to brush up on the descending skills if you're going to be living in the mountains than worrying about training levels. Can't train too well if you fall off

What I find is that once I hit the hills there's massive motivation to lose weight - that'll improve your power/weight ratio in a very short order. The pain of suffering greatly reduced the desire for that extra cookie or beer...

... that said, it's been about 5 months since I went up a hill and stocks in Sierra Nevada and Lagunitas are probably hitting all time highs!

Ha ha, anywhere nice??? More like that place you grow up in & then try super super hard to get the heck away from!! Answer, nah, nowhere nice but great spot for potentially getting cataracts, sandpaper-dry skin, and killing your vo2max Descents are not so bad there, kinda surprising but true. Here it is all typical bay area tight twisty turns - fun in a convertible, not so much fun going downhill on your bike. Skipped out on a group ride I got invited to this past w'kend & someone on it broke a collarbone. Talk about unlucky!!!

Yea yea, the weight thing is massive. Think I can tell the diff in my weight even by 5 pounds. Not much luck increasing my power in maybe a month. Weight has come down lots now bumping up w/kg, maybe enough to make me cyclist thin. I cant remember what BMI is for racers. HA ha, lagunitas. Double hercules & Stone are my favorites & hella good with those homemade burgers I make (or in & out burger!!)