Am I getting nowhere? Power flat, speed up...

[RapDaddyo]

I'm going to take a different tack with this question. fabiosav, I think you've provided enough information to make several observations about your progress to date. I want to make it clear that I am not speaking as a coach, but just as an athlete, like you. You said to be honest and not pull any punches, so I won't. You're a former world-class competitive athlete in one of the most demanding sports I know of -- cross-country skiing. I actually think that sport has a lot of similarities with cycling. Knowing nothing else about you, I would predict that you could be a good cyclist with a good training program in both volume and intensity and structure. As you noted, your weight is working against you, especially on the hills. But, I know of no better way to get your weight down than spending a bunch of hours/week on your bike. My weight went from 212 to 172 in 6 months, largely from just spending 2 hrs/wk in the saddle. Don't worry about your 20 years of "tapering." Hell, I "tapered" for 30 years and it only took me 6 months to get back in reasonable shape.

As to your current 20 min power of 220w, I'm going to say that it's not very good after 2 years of training, on either an absolute or relative (w/kg) scale. On the gold standard w/kg scale, you are at the level of an "untrained" cyclist. I've got overweight ladies in my cycling club who probably have 220w 20 min power. So, what do I honestly think of it? If you were an overweight female who was never a competitive athlete in any sport, I'd say, "Not bad." But, in your case, I say, "It's lousy and you should definitely expect to do much better. Fire your coach and change your training program." Personally, I think your small volume of training has a lot to do with your lack of progress, but that's just a cursory observation. A qualified coach would look at your whole program, including volume, intensity and structure.

There you have it. Now, the experts can come in and trash my observations.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

I'm going to take a different tack with this question. fabiosav, I think you've provided enough information to make several observations about your progress to date. I want to make it clear that I am not speaking as a coach, but just as an athlete, like you. You said to be honest and not pull any punches, so I won't. You're a former world-class competitive athlete in one of the most demanding sports I know of -- cross-country skiing. I actually think that sport has a lot of similarities with cycling. Knowing nothing else about you, I would predict that you could be a good cyclist with a good training program in both volume and intensity and structure. As you noted, your weight is working against you, especially on the hills. But, I know of no better way to get your weight down than spending a bunch of hours/week on your bike. My weight went from 212 to 172 in 6 months, largely from just spending 2 hrs/wk in the saddle. Don't worry about your 20 years of "tapering." Hell, I "tapered" for 30 years and it only took me 6 months to get back in reasonable shape.

As to your current 20 min power of 220w, I'm going to say that it's not very good after 2 years of training, on either an absolute or relative (w/kg) scale. On the gold standard w/kg scale, you are at the level of an "untrained" cyclist. I've got overweight ladies in my cycling club who probably have 220w 20 min power. So, what do I honestly think of it? If you were an overweight female who was never a competitive athlete in any sport, I'd say, "Not bad." But, in your case, I say, "It's lousy and you should definitely expect to do much better. Fire your coach and change your training program." Personally, I think your small volume of training has a lot to do with your lack of progress, but that's just a cursory observation. A qualified coach would look at your whole program, including volume, intensity and structure.

There you have it. Now, the experts can come in and trash my observations.

In many ways you have it correct. however, the main thing is Fabiosav hasn't suggested what his goals are, and is only curious about his 20-min power. I don't know whether he's suggested he's interested in racing or just getting a bit fitter and may not have communicated his thoughts very well to his coach.

On the other hand, if an ex-elite athlete came to me and only improved 30 W (?) in two years from a sedentary level (and didn't have anything wrong with them) i'd be upset with that rate of improvement. However, we're not fully aware of all of Fabiosav's situation (e.g., health status, training time, commitment and what his goals are). I'm not entirely sure Fabiosav know's what his goals are?

As an aside a few years ago i coached someone who was sedentary and possibly a similar age to Fabiosav (at a guess), and was also in the process of giving up smoking. He wanted to just get round a Grand Fondo. 6-months later he was well on the way to being a 2nd cat roadie (and had never competed before in racing when he was younger).

Ric

 

[frenchyge]

There you have it. Now, the experts can come in and trash my observations.

I'm not going to trash your observations, and I'm certainly no expert, but I can't help but think that you're reacting prematurely. His 20-min power is up >12% in the past 2 seasons (from 195w to 220w) and his 100k speed is well up by his own account. In fact, he's now riding 100k at 20mph average, which I would guess puts his 3hr power at ~200w, and which doesn't sound bad to me at all.

To me that sounds like the results of a training program designed for 1) general fitness, 2) organized century rides, or 3) weight loss through long hours in the so called 'fat-burning' zone. The fact that the OP is now focusing on his 20-min power doesn't seem to justify firing the coach, IMO. It sounds to me that the OP is using a metric which doesn't match the focus of the training plan, and that's why I suggested a re-alignment with the coach rather than firing him outright.

 

[RapDaddyo]

I'm not going to trash your observations, and I'm certainly no expert, but I can't help but think that you're reacting prematurely. His 20-min power is up >12% in the past 2 seasons (from 195w to 220w) and his 100k speed is well up by his own account. In fact, he's now riding 100k at 20mph average, which I would guess puts his 3hr power at ~200w, and which doesn't sound bad to me at all.

To me that sounds like the results of a training program designed for 1) general fitness, 2) organized century rides, or 3) weight loss through long hours in the so called 'fat-burning' zone. The fact that the OP is now focusing on his 20-min power doesn't seem to justify firing the coach, IMO. It sounds to me that the OP is using a metric which doesn't match the focus of the training plan, and that's why I suggested a re-alignment with the coach rather than firing him outright.

As to the 12% improvement in 2 seasons, that's off of a zero base! I think a former elite x-country athlete could ride his bike to the grocery store once a week for 2 years and achieve a 12% improvement after a 20-year period of inactivity. Now, maybe he isn't spending much time on his bike, which was my original conclusion (and remains my primary suspect), but I still think this is a pretty mediocre improvement for such an athlete. As to his benchmark of interest (20 min MP), that's a pretty good performance benchmark. It's not so short that it can be achieved with a bunch of short duration intervals. And, it's not so long that it would take a lot of hours on the bike to have the endurance for a good number. I mean, 20 mins is pretty short. Even limited time on the bike should increase this number >220w for such an athlete. I stand by my conclusion -- 220w 20 min MP is lousy after 2 years, unless his only cycling activity has been watching the TdF. As to firing his coach, I agree that if he has not been communicating his goals and discussing his concerns about his progress, he has no basis to complain. But, then, what is his coach doing? A good coach would start with a discussion of goals and ways to measure progress, wouldn't he? If he had a good coach, he would know the answer to his original question. So, I still say, fire him.

 

[Squint]

I have to agree that his improvements are not enough to justify paying a coach. An improvement in 20MP would benefit any cyclist regardless of his goals since aerobic power is so fundamental to the sport.

I don't have a coach and from May-Aug improved my 20MP 16%. My training hasn't been ideal and I was in a reasonably trained state to begin with.

I've ridden just over 4500 mi this season, not much more than the subject here.

 

[frenchyge]

I have to agree that his improvements are not enough to justify paying a coach. An improvement in 20MP would benefit any cyclist regardless of his goals since aerobic power is so fundamental to the sport.

I don't have a coach and from May-Aug improved my 20MP 16%. My training hasn't been ideal and I was in a reasonably trained state to begin with.

I've ridden just over 4500 mi this season, not much more than the subject here.

And I agree that someone could certainly achieve much greater gains in 20-min power if that's what they were targetting with their program. On the other hand, if you started out overweight and rode all year in the 'fat burning zone' then your 20-min power probably wouldn't increase by much at all. The OP is 5'8" and 190lbs *now*. Who knows where he started?

Eh, what do I care? Fire him if you want. Next topic.

 

[Woofer]

Ric et al.,
Sorry, not ducking the question at all, just messed up. 43 years old, at sea level. If Rapd wants a wind tunnel, leave Vegas and come for a ride into the wind along the Hudson!
I noted the comment "1o hours" is the min number to really get somewhere. Thoughts (I know it varies, but for a 43 year old guy who knwos how to drive hime self pretty hard, to make progress)?

Also I just chose 20 minutes randomly as indicative. What should I target? Peak 5 seconds is way up, to 780 watts (from half that). Is that any good?
It is just the 20 minute and 40 minute slots that are flat...

My thanks to all.

You picked twenty minutes and five seconds but failed to mentioned the Coggan power levels spreadsheets. Are you aware of them? If not, and if you have all the data points, just plug in the w/kg numbers and see where you started and where you are now.

Is your twenty minute interval on a flat road? I have a lot of trouble motivating myself to try as hard as I can on a uphill. YMMV.

 

[fabiosav]

Guys,
I’m sorry I missed a few posts on here, I was actually away from a computer for a few days. This has made me think, and I appreciate being able to share these thoughts with you. The goals should reflect reality, so it is a bit iterative. One certain goal is to try to ride a 30-mile (flat) bike race, a club type race that will be around 1:09 as the winning time. I would look to ride/hang on to in the peleton. The outside goals are broader. If I work at it, is it realistic to even show up in a cat 5 race? What kind of commitment would that take? I would love to ride a granfonto, or one of the “etape de tour” stages of the TdF. The goals are clear, but, like all you guys on this part of the forum, I’m not generally messing around on t he bike, riding just to see the country and indifferent to relative speed. I would not expect to win a cat 5 race, or blow anyone away in tour stage. Still, even at 43 I guess I don’t want to see the sweep van, or get dropped. My ranking in the worlds was 23rd, not a medal contender, but I know “good pain” (so will work) and am not a huge fan of “just showing up”. The goal of “finishing a century” seems lame to me. I want to AT LEAST do things like ride with a pack in a race, pull off a decent granfondo etc. (I’m not deprecating those who have finishing a century as a goal, it just does not motivate me)

On a technical basis my 20 minute time was chosen for my post because that is where the improvement goes flat. 1 min, 5 min, 10 min are all up, in decreasing amounts. 20 min the numbers we’ve shown, and beyond that time, not much improvment.

At the core, what sort of time commitment does this take, if my coach is efficient, and I do what he says?
In the end, if it is not possible in the time I have I will need to alter my goals. If my time and effort are sufficient, but the results are not are not coming out, then my coach my not be optimizing my effort….
I appreciate your continued thoughts...

ps. Basically good health: not a flexible as 20 ears ago, but no real excuses!

 

[RapDaddyo]

One certain goal is to try to ride a 30-mile (flat) bike race, a club type race that will be around 1:09 as the winning time. I would look to ride/hang on to in the peleton.

I can give you a benchmark for this. It just so happens that in my group ride today I rode for ~20 minutes at a similar pace. The course was flat and there was virtually no wind, so it sounds like similar ride conditions. I was with 2 other guys off the front, so I was sharing the work much more than you would in a medium-size peleton. Also, I'm a little lighter than you (172 lbs), so you would have to scale these numbers up slightly. Anyway, my NP was 262w and the pace was almost exactly 26mph. When I was on front, I was doing ~330w and when I was sitting in it was closer to 230w. As I said, this was a group of 3 and I pulled ~50% of the time, so you might not need quite that much NP to stay with your club race peleton if you are mainly sitting in. If there are no long climbs, you won't have to worry about being able to hang in to the top.

The outside goals are broader. If I work at it, is it realistic to even show up in a cat 5 race?

Depending on how competitive it is in your geography, I don't think you'll find the Cat 5 races much faster than your club race. If you can hang in at 26mph, you can probably hang in with the Cat 5s.

What kind of commitment would that take? I would love to ride a granfonto, or one of the “etape de tour” stages of the TdF. The goals are clear, but, like all you guys on this part of the forum, I’m not generally messing around on t he bike, riding just to see the country and indifferent to relative speed. I would not expect to win a cat 5 race, or blow anyone away in tour stage. Still, even at 43 I guess I don’t want to see the sweep van, or get dropped. My ranking in the worlds was 23rd, not a medal contender, but I know “good pain” (so will work) and am not a huge fan of “just showing up”. The goal of “finishing a century” seems lame to me. I want to AT LEAST do things like ride with a pack in a race, pull off a decent granfondo etc. (I’m not deprecating those who have finishing a century as a goal, it just does not motivate me).

I guess you mean how many hours/week or some such volume metric. I think this depends a lot on you and how far you are up your personal improvement curve now. If you're pretty far up your curve, it could take a pretty big commitment (e.g., >10 hrs/wk). But, my sense is that you aren't very far up your personal improvement curve and haven't begun to approach your potential. I am saying this in large part because of your statement that you've ridden only ~4K miles in 2 years. That's not much volume IMO. I would think something like 10 hrs/wk with the right mix of intensity and program structure would move you smartly up the curve toward your goal. Again, I'm sure there are some research studies on the issue of training volumes and improvement percentages, but nobody has posted one yet.

 

[frenchyge]

At the core, what sort of time commitment does this take, if my coach is efficient, and I do what he says?
In the end, if it is not possible in the time I have I will need to alter my goals. If my time and effort are sufficient, but the results are not are not coming out, then my coach my not be optimizing my effort….

I trained 4-6 hours every week starting Jan 1st, and was quite competitive in my Cat 5 races in June of this year. I probably had a different starting fitness than you are describing, but there's another data point for you.

 

[fabiosav]

I trained 4-6 hours every week starting Jan 1st, and was quite competitive in my Cat 5 races in June of this year. I probably had a different starting fitness than you are describing, but there's another data point for you.

what sort of level were you at? just a guess....

 

[frenchyge]

what sort of level were you at? just a guess....

Power-wise, probably similar to what you're describing now (maybe ~240w 20MP, as a guess). Only reason I say that I was probably coming from a better fitness level is because I'd been riding group/club rides, training for centuries, etc. for the past 5 years, so my legs have had a few more years to become adapted to cycling. It can take a few seasons for that to happen, in my experience. Also, I'm 6'1" and 175lbs, so I didn't have any weight concerns to contend with. I'm athletic, but not 'elite' by any stretch.

Honestly, I feel like my biggest improvements came this past winter as opposed to the 5 years previous. Before this year, I've trained exclusively for the MS150 and local club rides. Being competitive, I always wanted to be a strong rider in the group, but I never worried about interval training, zones, pwer, etc. I just went out and rode solo, pushed myself when I could, etc. I got to the point where I could ride century pacelines at 20-22mph, which I was pretty satisfied with.

This year I set a much more challenging mountain ride as a goal, and got a lot more serious about my training; with the goal of improving MAP and LT-pwr for those long, hard climbs. Based on the great info in this forum, I started incorporating LT, and VO2 interval workouts into my routine, and was a lot more consistent with my indoor riding over the winter. By Spring, I was head-and-shoulders above where I had been in years past. I got involved with a race team in May as a fluke, and started training with the local racers. That was another step up in terms of intensity. I did a few Cat 5 races in June which I was pretty pleased with, so I felt that my 5-6 hrs/wk *of dedicated MAP- & LT-improving workouts* were fairly good preparation.

Don't get me wrong, I'm *not* saying that 5-6 hrs/wk of my previous years' solo/group ride/MS150 training would have gotten me competitive for racing. Different training plan for different goal. This winter I will be training for racing, and am excited to see even better results next year.

 

[RapDaddyo]

I did a few Cat 5 races in June which I was pretty pleased with, so I felt that my 5-6 hrs/wk *of dedicated MAP- & LT-improving workouts* were fairly good preparation.

But, even your 5-6 hrs/wk was the equivalent of ~5K miles/yr, which is more than 2x the OP's volume of the past two years. IMO, to improve sustainable power takes a combination of volume and intensity.

 

[frenchyge]

That would be the result if I were to stick to that plan for the entire year. In reality, my training starts in earnest around Christmas and ends after the MS150 in September (if that late). I've ridden ~3500 miles this year, and my riding has already become pretty sporadic.

Not disagreeing that both volume and intensity are key for maximal performance, but I'd be very surprised if there were many Cat 4/5's out there averaging 10hrs/wk. In fact, I'd guess that 4-5hrs/wk would be fairly typical, judging by what I've seen of the riding habits of my teammates.

 

[fabiosav]

That would be the result if I were to stick to that plan for the entire year. In reality, my training starts in earnest around Christmas and ends after the MS150 in September (if that late). I've ridden ~3500 miles this year, and my riding has already become pretty sporadic.

Not disagreeing that both volume and intensity are key for maximal performance, but I'd be very surprised if there were many Cat 4/5's out there averaging 10hrs/wk. In fact, I'd guess that 4-5hrs/wk would be fairly typical, judging by what I've seen of the riding habits of my teammates.

that's interesting... In NYC the Cat 4 boys do seem to move, but they are pretty intense. I would hope the results start to come. For now, my coach has me on longer, less intense rides, with more "base building" in the cards. I guess I want to start hitting the gas a bit!

 

[BlueJersey]

I am a NYC racer and a cat4. Believe it I train from 12 hours to 16 hours a week plus a full time job. 30 minutes LT power is 245w. I weight 130 lb. That roughly puts me 4.15w/kg. 15 minutes LT power is 260w. All this means is that I can work my ass off for my team during a race. I am pretty sure I will get some result next year if I keep on training the way I do now in terms of volume.

that's interesting... In NYC the Cat 4 boys do seem to move, but they are pretty intense. I would hope the results start to come. For now, my coach has me on longer, less intense rides, with more "base building" in the cards. I guess I want to start hitting the gas a bit!

 

[fabiosav]

I am a NYC racer and a cat4. Believe it I train from 12 hours to 16 hours a week plus a full time job. 30 minutes LT power is 245w. I weight 130 lb. That roughly puts me 4.15w/kg. 15 minutes LT power is 260w. All this means is that I can work my ass off for my team during a race. I am pretty sure I will get some result next year if I keep on training the way I do now in terms of volume.

That is good stuff. When do you fit it in, out of interest? eg typical hours on week days vs week-ends? You do the Century Road Club (CRCA) races? Also, would you win in/place in CRCA Cat 5?

 

[flapsupcleanup]

I am a NYC racer and a cat4. Believe it I train from 12 hours to 16 hours a week plus a full time job. 30 minutes LT power is 245w. I weight 130 lb. That roughly puts me 4.15w/kg. 15 minutes LT power is 260w. All this means is that I can work my ass off for my team during a race. I am pretty sure I will get some result next year if I keep on training the way I do now in terms of volume.

I'm curious, when you guys use numbers for 30 minute LT power and 15 minute LT power are you using average power or NP?

 

[Squint]

I'm curious, when you guys use numbers for 30 minute LT power and 15 minute LT power are you using average power or NP?

I always use average power with zeros.

I'm not sure what 30 min LT power and 15 min LT power are and how you could have both. You could ride at LT power (various definitions) for 15 or 30 min but they likely wouldn't be the most power you could sustain for those durations.

 

[frenchyge]

I'm curious, when you guys use numbers for 30 minute LT power and 15 minute LT power are you using average power or NP?

Personally, I use NP because the rolling terrain around here creates no opportunity for a 15+ minute interval at a steady power. If I were doing my workouts on an indoor trainer or flat road then I would probably use average power, but then avg pwr would equal NP under those conditions.

Actually, sometimes I pull numbers off my Cycling Peaks mean-maximal power vs. time graph (on the athlete home page), and I'm not sure if that graph uses avg pwr or NP. Hmmm.... anyone know?