Am I stronger or mis-leading myself

[jeff828]

Hey guys, been awhile since I posted

Since January 1st I have not done any threshold work like 2x20s or Vomax stuff at all, I have just been doing 2hr
tempo rides 3 times a week,(215-240w) and 1 weekend ride of 5hrs with a group. My FTP is 260w
I have lost 12 lbs, did I get stronger or is it just because I lost weight that I feel stronger?
This pertains to the flats only, not climbing, I understand that w/kg has gone up with the weight loss.

Here is scenario 1,
I have done 4x4min intervals on a flat road/train and can only hold 290-295w, if I turn
myself inside out I have gotten 305w ave for the first 2, perceived efforts from 1-10, is 10-12

Recently this year, since I lost the weight, I am now pushing 4min at 320-330w with a perceived effort
of a 7 maybe 8, so what’s going on?? does this wattage number increase (on the flat) when you loose weight,
and by this much?


Scenario 2
I also noticed that when I used to ride at 250-260w next to my club guys (not in the draft) on
this totally flat 15min stretch of road I would be working kind of hard the last 5min, effort 9
now I am doing the 250-260w on the same stretch of road but now its really easy, perceived effort is 5-7,
so what’s going on here as well, I can maybe see that 12 lbs less meaning less weight to move
but like I said this is on the flat


the first scenario is what I really would like your input on, how, by me getting lighter now be able to push 25w
more or is it two-fold, I got lighter and got stronger but haven’t noticed it, like my FTP went up, havent tested it this year.


PT is zeroed, everything is working correctly, have 2 PTs 1 on each bike and they read the same, been power training
for 4 years.

Thanks for your help as usual

 

[daveryanwyoming]

You're over thinking this stuff.

If you can sustain more power than your fitness has improved. Yes, since you lost weight your weight normalized power has improved as well but the bottom line is that assuming your PM is accurate you're holding more power for similar durations.

Seems to me you've progressed with a 'push-up' approach which works for a lot of folks at least for a while.

Good on ya,

-Dave

 

[jeff828]

Thanks dave, i respect your opinion, I have followed your posts for a number of years.

What is a push-up approach? My coach has made a similar remark a couple of months ago, he has done wonders, bringing my FTP from 215-220 two years ago to where it is now.

Thanks again

You're over thinking this stuff.

If you can sustain more power than your fitness has improved. Yes, since you lost weight your weight normalized power has improved as well but the bottom line is that assuming your PM is accurate you're holding more power for similar durations.

Seems to me you've progressed with a 'push-up' approach which works for a lot of folks at least for a while.

Good on ya,

-Dave

 

[daveryanwyoming]

A push-up approach to raising sustainable power basically means a lot of work below FTP but still sufficiently intense and with enough of it that your body adapts and even if you haven't spent much time at or above FTP your FTP tends to rise. I've used this a lot over the past few winters with good results and even when I've gone many months without any efforts above FTP, my shorter duration power power in the 3 to 6 minute range has increased when I finally get around to putting it to the test.

A pull-up approach focuses on work above FTP and often a lot of L5 work with 3 to 5 minute VO2 Max intervals. Some folks feel you need this work to increase your FTP and at some point that's probably true but most folks can go a long way by focusing on a push-up approach before hitting plateaus.

Both have their place throughout the training and racing year and both have staunch advocates but from your post above it sounds like you're surprised or have trouble believing your FTP could have risen without much if any hard training. Unless you've really maxed out your capabilities or are peaking for specific race fitness you can get really good results with a lot of Tempo/SST riding. Sure, sooner or later you'll want to bump up the power to avoid moving from training to maintaining but especially during the off season you can get great results without much if any high end work.

-Dave

 

[swampy1970]

Here is scenario 1,
I have done 4x4min intervals on a flat road/train and can only hold 290-295w, if I turn
myself inside out I have gotten 305w ave for the first 2, perceived efforts from 1-10, is 10-12

 

[jeff828]

Basically what it meant was it was super hard/struggle to hold that wattage for that length of time, now Im holding 325w for that duration and Im not finding nearly as hard. So I was wondering if the increase in wattage came just because I lost weight.
(daveryanwyoming) hit it right square on the head, couldnt be more accurate
Like the pic by the way!

 

[jeff828]

Dave, you hit the nail right on the head, your first paraghraph summed it up, (push-up) seems this is what I have been doing without knowing it and its been working incredible.



The work I have been doing goes like this:
260w is my FTP


January, 90min Tempo interval@200-225w three times a week, last 15-20min legs were tired/heavy, did this until the last 20min felt like I was just starting the workout, took a month

Then February was 90min Tempo interval@225-250w three times a week, last 15-20min legs were feeling tired/heavy, did this until the last 20min felt like I was just starting the workout, took a month for this to happen

Then March was 90min Tempo interval@240-265w three times a week, last 15-20min legs were feeling tired, found that holding closer to 260-265w was reaching, but 240-250w was do-able, did this for a month

Then April was 90min Tempo interval@230-250w three times a week but added in 1-3min efforts@300w during this workout, usually ended up with about 7 of these per session

Then sometime in late April/early May I was feeling crazy strong so i decided to try a 4x4min workout that day and found myself being able to hold 320-330w without much problem
This is also about when I noticed riding next to my group @250ish felt really easy compared to before

I also would do a 5hr ride on every saturday, so a total of 4 days a week on the bike and about 9-11hrs

So Yes I had trouble believing your FTP or Vomax could rise without much if any hard training.

What would you call this type of workout I was doing, a push-up?


Thanks again for your answers

A push-up approach to raising sustainable power basically means a lot of work below FTP but still sufficiently intense and with enough of it that your body adapts and even if you haven't spent much time at or above FTP your FTP tends to rise. I've used this a lot over the past few winters with good results and even when I've gone many months without any efforts above FTP, my shorter duration power power in the 3 to 6 minute range has increased when I finally get around to putting it to the test.

A pull-up approach focuses on work above FTP and often a lot of L5 work with 3 to 5 minute VO2 Max intervals. Some folks feel you need this work to increase your FTP and at some point that's probably true but most folks can go a long way by focusing on a push-up approach before hitting plateaus.

Both have their place throughout the training and racing year and both have staunch advocates but from your post above it sounds like you're surprised or have trouble believing your FTP could have risen without much if any hard training. Unless you've really maxed out your capabilities or are peaking for specific race fitness you can get really good results with a lot of Tempo/SST riding. Sure, sooner or later you'll want to bump up the power to avoid moving from training to maintaining but especially during the off season you can get great results without much if any high end work.

-Dave

 

[swampy1970]

Basically what it meant was it was super hard/struggle to hold that wattage for that length of time, now Im holding 325w for that duration and Im not finding nearly as hard. So I was wondering if the increase in wattage came just because I lost weight.
(daveryanwyoming) hit it right square on the head, couldnt be more accurate
Like the pic by the way!

I just found that quote "perceived efforts from 1-10, is 10-12" amusing. You create a scale of 1 to 10 and then chose a 12. That's some Nigel Tufnel math - but his only goes upto 11.

 

[jeff828]

I count my money that way too, always end up with more that I thought

I just found that quote "perceived efforts from 1-10, is 10-12" amusing. You create a scale of 1 to 10 and then chose a 12. That's some Nigel Tufnel math - but his only goes upto 11.

 

[mikesaif]

Dave, you hit the nail right on the head, your first paraghraph summed it up, (push-up) seems this is what I have been doing without knowing it and its been working incredible.



The work I have been doing goes like this:
260w is my FTP


January, 90min Tempo interval@200-225w three times a week, last 15-20min legs were tired/heavy, did this until the last 20min felt like I was just starting the workout, took a month

Then February was 90min Tempo interval@225-250w three times a week, last 15-20min legs were feeling tired/heavy, did this until the last 20min felt like I was just starting the workout, took a month for this to happen

Then March was 90min Tempo interval@240-265w three times a week, last 15-20min legs were feeling tired, found that holding closer to 260-265w was reaching, but 240-250w was do-able, did this for a month

Then April was 90min Tempo interval@230-250w three times a week but added in 1-3min efforts@300w during this workout, usually ended up with about 7 of these per session

Then sometime in late April/early May I was feeling crazy strong so i decided to try a 4x4min workout that day and found myself being able to hold 320-330w without much problem
This is also about when I noticed riding next to my group @250ish felt really easy compared to before

I also would do a 5hr ride on every saturday, so a total of 4 days a week on the bike and about 9-11hrs

So Yes I had trouble believing your FTP or Vomax could rise without much if any hard training.

What would you call this type of workout I was doing, a push-up?


Thanks again for your answers

One point you are not giving much thought to is the long 5 hour ride. I don't recall where I read it, but a coach said that once his riders had done a 75 mile ride or even better a 100 mile ride, they were much more able to deal with harder workouts.

For some reason, I have remembered this from reading it last year and keep trying to get some of our Saturday group ride to extend the regular 40 miles to a 70 mile or longer ride, just so I can test it.

Interestingly, I have changed my Tuesday ride from a 30 mile to a 50 mile SST ride and even that has me feeling stronger. So maybe the length of a training ride has some impact.