Amercian Sports & Conspiracy theories

Discussion in 'Doping in Cycling' started by Flyer, Mar 15, 2005.

  1. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    This week we will get a peek into the murky world of performance enhancing drugs and good business practices in Major League Baseball. (MLB)

    Normally, it is good business practice to present your "product" in this case, the sport of baseball (it could also be cycling), as a clean and wholesome activity.

    This image (some say illusion) should offer the greatest chance to sell corporate advertising themes/commercials, signage, MLB licensed product sales, TV, radio and ticket revenues.

    TV advertising being the #1 source of money & profit--by far.

    Anyway, given that some Lance Armstrong supporters seem to insist that a "conspiracy theory" must exist in order for widespread doping to continue--or to insure that Lance's personal medical supervision remains a jealously guarded secret.

    Well you have an opportunity to view how much higher paid baseball players dope w/o disclosure--and it ain't a conspiracy.

    From the coaches, managers, owners and the athletes themselves, only results and performances matter. The doping is not an issue, nor is its very existence relevant to "good business practice" of selling advertising themes. As Nike says, "Just do it!"

    It is competitive business. If athletes must dope in order to get a 3rd string job---they will.

    No secret meetings or hidden agendas required.

    Just the law of the jungle.

    Watch C-SPAN Thursday & Friday. Hopefully, not all the subpoenaed witnesses will take their 5th admendment protection against self-incrimination and/or will accept immunity and instead will sign like canaries.

    If cycling were a more profitable business in the USA--we could focus on it too. A black box with lots of doping inside.

    Stay tuned.
     
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  2. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    For the record--drug testing did not get this case outed. Nor did a tearful confession.

    MLB is the focus--because it makes the most money. The other sports, are profitable too, but smaller.

    No, it was an overzealous trainer (Greg Anderson) bragging about his steroid program at a World Gym. The knucklehead was overheard by an IRS agent (USA Federal Tax Authority)

    The agent then got his boss to approve an investigation into money laundering/tax evasion. Around the same time, Marion Jones's former coach Fed-Exed a used syringe with a non-detectable THG anabolic steroid to the USADA. They in turn, sent it to Don Catlin at the UCLA laboratory in Westwood Los Angeles. Don's lab cracked the chemistry.

    This designer doping discovery was later linked (Marion's angry coach also ratted them out) to BALCO--the same vender that Greg Anderson/Barry Bonds used. (BALCO- Bay Area Laboratory Co-Op)

    Warrants were issued and files, document and significant cash were seized in unannounced raids.

    30+ client/athletes were found to be steroid customers, 27 were subpoenaed before a Federal Grand Jury.

    Drugs and recorded dosages/frequencies were;

    Insulin, B-12, THG, human growth hormone, testosterone, clomid, hCG, EPO, stimulants, amsking agents, methods, diurectics.

    All 27 subpoenaed athletes were granted immunity--so no worries legally. However, several athletes have over $100 million dollars contracts which might be
    voided upon an "admitted morals violation" subject to legal interpretation.

    Tim Montgomery (world's fastest man), his girlfriend, Marion Jones (world's fastest women) were clients as were many footballers, baseballers, other track stars.

    Is not cycling as, if not more, physically demanding as these sports? Why would road cyclists not have a drug program too? Aren't cyclist world class enough to dope?
     
  3. mjolnir2k

    mjolnir2k New Member

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    GOD GIVE IT A REST. You have resrted to making posts and replying to yourself because no one else CARES!!! It's too bad that some cyclists have died, yet trash like you still continue to draw a breath! YOU ARE A JOKE! Please go kill yourself and save us from your idiotic ranting...we DON'T CARE!!!!!!
     
  4. ct2

    ct2 New Member

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    Don't listen to him. In the world of cycling, I'm more likely to listen to the likes of lemond and hampsten than mjolnir2k.

    Seems like the teams and media do a good job of disconnecting the dots. It's good to have them connected.
     
  5. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    Thanks ct2:

    No worries re: the blithering idiot that is mjolnir. He lives in an alternate universe where professionally compensated athletes are put under intensive physical and mental pressures, but refuse to avail themselves of synthetic rejuvenators. No one cheats and nobody dares ask questions.

    Sadly for mjolnir his alternate world is threatened by daily news stories spilling over from our world, THE REALITY BASED ONE.

    In our world, humans act according to human nature and commensurate with the stress involved.

    In pro sport, that means doping, then lying about it.

    mjolnir2k better pray that all 6 subpoenaed athletes take the 5th---and are not granted immunity, thus preserving the code of silence which governs endorsement contracts and athlete financial lives. Otherwise, his false drug-free world will collapse onto his computer keyboard.

    Lance can explain it far better than I can.

    We are at a historic moment in the USA, where massive doping practices may be publicly exposed--and mjolnir2k wants to ignore it.

    Even Lance Armstrong must be embarrassed to have fans like mjolnir.
     
  6. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    You seem to be so disturbed as to spit on the lives of the victims. You are seriously warped.

    Your denials are as ridiculous as Lance's rants against Richard Pound, WADA, Christophe Bassons, Filippo Simeoni and Emily O'Reily---who was the heart and soul of USPO. Hmmmmm?

    Whom shall I believe?

    After you finish with your doping cover-up nut-case rants, study the mortality tables for cyclists.

    We lose a cyclist every 60 days to heart failure or cancer. We have lost 4 since Lance's last TDF win.

    So go dig another grave.
     
  7. mjolnir2k

    mjolnir2k New Member

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    I would love to dig another grave and put you and your rantings in it. Here's the point you ignorant, egotistical, douche bag...WE ARE TIRED OF YOUR DRUG RELATED POSTINGS. How many times do you have to make your point before it becomes AD NASEUM???

    Get a CLUE..there is such a thing as FREE WILL in this life. If a rider/ athelete chooses to use drugs to enhance their performance, they are making a choice of their own free will. They will eventually suffer the consequences of those actions, be it death or dishonor...but they made their choice. If they die...then they die! They knew that going in...it's not a shocker anymore that drugs kill.

    We get the fact that you hate pro athletes and think them all cheaters...why don't you get a hobby or something so that you will have something in your life to remove some of your bitterness??

    You polute this forum that is supposed to be about racing with your inceasant pissant commentaries on our society. Where are your rants about Cigarettes and alcohol??? They kill MORE people each year than all the other drugs COMBINED...yet you remain silent? Are you an agent of Big Tabacco??? Do you own stock in Budweiser??? What are you trying to hide???

    Just give it a rest...let us have a week free of your rantings for once..it would be a nice change.

    ps. If I dig a grave, would you be so kind as to lie down in it for me!
     
  8. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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  9. fallensparrow

    fallensparrow New Member

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    Thanks for the heads up on the MLB hearings Flyer. :)

    I really have to wonder what good could come of them save perhaps educating the (realistically speaking) uncaring general public who only want to see bigger and stronger athletes set new records and further entertain them. Who do they honestly expect to run around policing every major league athlete there? The players apparently want/need to dope, the owners/coaches expect to continue to see doper type "numbers" put up (the bar continues to be raised performance wise), and the fans are paying to see players throw harder and hit further so they can throw their dollars at their heros/sponsors. It would seen that with the status quo everyone is happy, making money and being entertained! So what needs to be "fixed"? ... and do the authorities actually think all parties involved are going to work together and eliminate drugs from MLB and take a hit to their bottom line... their $PROFIT$ ? Hardly. These hearings will be a momentarily blip we'll look back on 30 years from now when all MLB athletes weigh 20 pounds more, have a medicine cabinet built into their lockers and new larger stadiums continue to be built to house adoring fans throwing fist fulls of dollars the athletes/owners/sponsors way. Really, why not just quite fooling ourselves and just let everyone "train" as they will... safely, under their team doctors supervision and sit back and enjoy the show? :cool:

    fallensparrow
     
  10. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    Fallensparrow:

    Yes, yes of course this is all true.

    But wait, mjolinar would claim that the really talented athletes don't use drugs or hormones or rejuvinators or anything that sounds like a smear.

    It's all about the work ethic and/or the cover story image being sold.

    I just think it's grand when liars, myths, cover stories and frauds get exposed from time to time.

    And in American Sports, such disgraces seldom occur or are immediately denied under threat of libel and defamation lawsuits. All USA athletes are demigods, innocent until proven guilty, and only the foreigners are cheaters. Correction, jealous cheaters!

    Let's enjoy the show tomorrow and Friday. Lets hope it's a good one, otherwise mjolnir2k will wrongly declare that all PED doping is DEAD.

    Let the gavel strike down!
     
  11. mjolnir2k

    mjolnir2k New Member

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    And you have proven yourself to be not only anti athlete, but you now may add anti American to your profile.

    Ahhhh, it's all becoming clear to me now. You don't just hate athletes, you hate American Athletes. I see. How delightful.

    The fact remains, you have no credibility, no inside knowledge of what you speak, no facts, no truth but what you assume.

    I have never made any claims to know, or not know what these riders are doing. I have merely stated that you have an agenda that goes far beyond wanting to clean up the sport. You are soley focused on tearing it down rider by rider with innuendo and false claims and you have shown yourself to be especially obsessed with American riders and athletes.

    Good to see your TRUE motives coming to the fore front. Too bad you harbor this hatred, but for those like you there is precious little in their own lives to enjoy, so they make themselves feel better by attacking others.

    You are a sad, sad, little man.
     
  12. fallensparrow

    fallensparrow New Member

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    Perhaps Flyer could state his true motives just to set the record straight. Anti-athlete/Anti-America ? ... I'm not sure where your reading that into his posts. As I believe he is American and does race bikes, who else is better qualified to make observations on cycling and racing in America and its athletes? If he were attacking French or Italian cyclists I may question his motives... but sticking "close to home" only adds to his credibility IMHO. I would suggest not reading his posts or adding him to your ignore list if your tired of reading his particular slant on doping in cycling... problem solved. :)

    fallensparrow
     
  13. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    Thanks fallensparrow I will state my motivations:

    It is always amazing when the Flyer haters ascribe false biases to me. Shoot the messenger, even if you must alter the message in order to discredit.

    Given that the average sproting fan wants to believe that a commercial show, produced by businessmen, working inside a blackbox, without a public audit or disclosure of any kind, portray athletes and competiona as "Corinthean Events" does not make it so. Much in the way many people enjoy a sausage, but would be horrified if they knew how they were actually made.

    With this as a mighty stonewall of denial;

    1) I am opposed to illegal doping in all sport, not just cycling. I believe disclosure, awareness and debate is a start for prevention in the future.

    2) I am also opposed to most legal doping in sport too. If an athlete requires drugs--then he ought to rest not race with healthier atheltes, or TUE his/her way into the prize list.

    3) I do not believe the doping can be stopped, despite my wishes that it somehow could be.

    4) Drugs work--and work powerfully well and immediately. In endurance sport, the dope can "build the motor and base aerobic system" beyond what one could do w/o dope. Eventually, health problems can occur--especially if overdosing was practiced.

    5) Work ethic is required only to commit to the extra training levels allowed for by doping. w/o doping, a work ethic will bear no elite fruit.

    6) I work with junior athletes who seem to know far more about steroids than do many people who post with a posturing illusion of authority--despite their claims of no knowledge.

    7) For a loser cyclist, I have won over 100 races, and compete at a high level along side National & World Champion riders. I do lose more races than I win.

    8) I love the sport and hate the doping and lying.

    9) I am not blind to the truth, nor do I let the facts blur my vision. I do not use a commercial theme to be my template for life. Insofar as sport, I am not for or against the USA. I am a sportsman. I love competition and want every competitor to be at their best. I respect all the countries. It is the only doping methods I oppose---that is the worst form of cheating. It cheats the non-doper now and later the doper may damages his liver and/or pituitary functions.

    10) I never claimed Lance Armstrong was talentless or that drugs were the sole reason for his cycling successes. However, given that all his podium buddies are proving to be on drugs---it is reasonable to assume that he too is on drugs. And he is a member of the doping community, cnacer research echosystem, uses infamous blood doper, convicted Michele Ferrari, and is paid by a dope distributor (Bristol Meyers Squib) as well. It does paint a picture---and it ain't organic.

    The notion that Lance and his peers are not on illegal and legal drugs is: Theater of the absurd.

    No charge for admission.

    If or when Lance Armstrong does publicly admit his use of steroids, blood boosters, corticosteroids and other rejuvenators, I hope you will all remember this post, and it will not be a surprise to you or your kids.

    David Millar, Oscar Camenzind, Richard Virenque, Alex Zulle, Philippe Gaumont, Robert Sassone, Francecso Moser, Eddie Merkx, Eddie Plankaert, Marco Pantani, Fuasto Coppi, Jacques Anquitil will welcome Lance into their fraternity of retired dopers.
    The ones still living, that is.

    DENIAL only promotes doping. Awareness can prevent it.
     
  14. noonievut

    noonievut New Member

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    Like I posted in the Tyler Hamilton thread a while back, who cares if cyclists chose to dope. If they die because of it, no skin off my back. I care much more about my family and friends, then some cyclist; especially if he chooses to die.

    Now when an athlete or someone in the public dies and they were a good person and role model for children, I am saddened. If it was ever conclusively discovered that lance doped through all of his victories, or that Bonds did as well, then I don't give a crap if they lose everything they earned or worse for that matter.
     
  15. ct2

    ct2 New Member

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    2) I am also opposed to most legal doping in sport too. If an athlete requires drugs--then he ought to rest not race with healthier atheltes, or TUE his/her way into the prize list.

    I'm diabetic, and use insulin. Do I qualify or not in your ideal cycling world (a serious statement, I have an ideal cycling world where nobody dopes as well)? I see how insulin can be a PED, but for me, the difficulty of controlling my blood glucose levels far outweighs any gains. Any recovery benefits from taking extra insulin is destroyed by the deleterious effects of elevated blood glucose in my capillaries.

    Lance used EPO during his recovery from cancer. Maybe he still uses it as a 'preventative' measure?
     
  16. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    ct2: Great response. Great delemma question.

    I cycled through the Dolimites with a diabetic and another rider, who was not---but used insulin/glucose injections to enhance her recovery. And yet another who used EPO & growth hormones.

    We had three scary moments with my diabetic friend--fortunately we had along a vascular surgeon cyclist to help out, 2 of the 3 times.

    I was separated one time with the diabetic cyclist--just the two of us, when he began losing power--and I sprinted 4 miles to a store for a coke, then returned to bring him back to life. (we had only just run out of food) This was just controlled touring pace, not intesive racing with lots of jumps, attacks, acounters, chasing etc.....

    So: re: racing as a diabetic----That's your call, your life. Personally, I am scared to death of it when I see a rider collapsing onto the pavement.

    Great question.
     
  17. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    When the odd doper is exposed---or admits to it after retirement as many do---they never forfeit their prizes or earning. No, they keep them---fraud or no fraud. Often, like Eddie Merkx, they rise in stature for their openness and honesty. (after the fact)

    That's the beautiful thing about sport doping; CRIME PAYS.

    It is the law of the jungle.
     
  18. ct2

    ct2 New Member

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    I had an interesting debate a couple years ago regarding supplements. As a diabetic, I was looking for ways to reduce the chance of hypo and hyperglycemia. I discovered l-carnitene and hmb. Both legal, but both with reported performance enhancing effects. They both helped stabilize my blood sugars. I don't take them anymore, mainly because they are quite expensive.

    But the question I still have is, where do you draw the line? I also take tablets of electrolytes during a race, and take general vitamins every night. Somehow these are okay, but what about creatine? I usually say health effects, but that seems to be too losely defined. Life has health risks. Random rant over.
     
  19. fallensparrow

    fallensparrow New Member

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    Exactly

    Question. Would you want Mark McGwire to come to your sons/daughters high school and give a presentation on the negatives of steroid use with the way things stand now? Our young athletes certainly aren't fools. They would see Mark McGwire, his many successes and records on one hand, and on the other the methods he used to achieve those marks, and draw their own conclusions. The best Mark could achieve for those potentially at risk of adopting a drug habit is better inform them of the possible risks and thus precautions they should take when undergoing performance enhancing drug therapy. I found it rather interesting when the question was asked during the MLB congressional hearings: "Do you think any records should be stripped from athletes/players if they were found at a later date to have been using?" ... and the athletes answers. :cool:

    fallensparrow
     
  20. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    ct2:

    Thank you.

    By the very nature of this open forum discussion, we have crossed over from the Lance Armstrong and Pro-cycling "privacy rights trumping PEDs disclosures" to an honest and forthright discussion about supplements/drugs. And what is--or should be justified under the specific circumstances.

    That's my whole point about what is so vexing about doping denials.

    There are no public disclosure about what athletes are, in fact, doing with medicines. We only find out by accident when a Customs Officer or Policeman catches out David Miller or Richard Virenque et al... (but we never learn the specific dosages, frequencies or methods) TUEs are often written up after the fact--not before or are submitted with asthma covers.

    Under your circumstances---for liability reasons alone, a full disclosure about your medications should be necessary prior to racing---NOT to DQ you, rather to alert the promoter of the potential medical issues. This will protect you better as well. Diabetics wear wrist bands to alert other as to their special needs. It must not be kept a secret.

    That is why when Lance Armstrong refused to identify the persons on his USPO team requireing insulin in the 2000 TDF---you knew he was lying.

    His whole squad used insulin and none were diabetic.
    So too with the Actovegin--which he claimed was fro road rashes---yet another litte fib.

    If Lance Armstrong personally uses the products that his doctor (Ferrari) prescribes for his other clients; Axel Merkx, then the public ought to know that.

    If Lance can get a TUE for insulin, EPO, Hemopure, testosterone, clomid, hCG, caffeine, viagra, coticosteroids, and Interlukins, that's fine. Just disclose it so that the public knows that he is "tampered with helpers".

    Normally, I would draw the line at synthetic hormones, insulin, testosterone, stimulants such as Ridalin or caffeine as well as corticosteroids. These all have unfair advantage for users over the undoped.

    As a practical matter, it is entirely hopeless to prevent anyone from doping in any way.

    So I say--let's disclose it and let the fans and other competitors be aware for proper rider handicaping.

    Thank you for your candor.

    Great post!
     
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