American Uproar Over Jesus's Tomb

[limerickman]

Are you saying the Catechism of the Catholic Church is incorrect.

I'm saying that your contention that it's an article of faith - is incorrect.
If it was an article of faith - it would be contained in the profession of faith which is recited at all Roman Catholic Masses throughout the world.

Do you mean the incorrect assertion that I proved by citing the catechism as irrefutable proof?

see above.

By the way, still waiting for your other reasons why Christ descended into hell.(Remember you stated that in message #55). Just a reference from the catechism would be ok.

In message 50, you made several incorrect assertions concerning Jesus descent in to hell - that's what I pointed out to you in message 55.

I would strongly suggest that you consult a priest to enquire as to why there is no reference to Jesus being in Hell in the Roman Catholic Mass nor in the Nicean Creed used in all Roman Catholic Masses throughout the world.


As an aside, some of the Reformed Churches do refer to Jesus descending in to Hell as part their liturgies

 

[garyj]

Issues of tenets of faith and belief are emotive subjects. I suppose it depends on the individuals.

I'm enjoying the exchange here. An important distinction is that FAITH includes at least two conceipts. There are ARTICLES OF FAITH - a statement of a belief system and there is the FAITH that is inherent in a commitment. One is most related to head knowledge and the other to heart experience. I've heard it said that some people will make it to heaven in spite of what they believe. If that's the case, it's probably because their heart is more right than their head is.

 

[ilpirata]

Lim I am afraid you are mistaken here. The Nicene creed is the more common creed recited at mass, but the apostles creed is occasionaly used in it's place. The Apostles creed is used during Lent at our parish, I imagine it is thus used throughout the world, but I am not sure of this. It is also the creed recited in the Rosary and in other devotional prayers.

With regard to whether a non Christian goes to heaven, the church does not say this is impossible. Only that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Remember the people that recognised and emplored him at the gates of heaven saying, "Lord Lord let us pass" and he responded "I do not know you"
and the others he let pass saying "When I was naked you gave me clothes, when I was hungry you gave me drink, when I was cold you gave me shelter" and they "Lord when did we do this for you?" and He "Whenever you did it for the least of my brothers, it was the same as for me"
So I believe it is this simple; the just and virtuous non-Christian, even though deprived of full knowledge of how God has worked in history, by the circumstances of their existence, or the falsehoods that have been imposed upon them, will non the less after death, come to know that Jesus Christ has saved them, and having received this grace, can not help but be Christian at that point.

I'm saying that your contention that it's an article of faith - is incorrect.
If it was an article of faith - it would be contained in the profession of faith which is recited at all Roman Catholic Masses throughout the world.




see above.



In message 50, you made several incorrect assertions concerning Jesus descent in to hell - that's what I pointed out to you in message 55.

I would strongly suggest that you consult a priest to enquire as to why there is no reference to Jesus being in Hell in the Roman Catholic Mass nor in the Nicean Creed used in all Roman Catholic Masses throughout the world.


As an aside, some of the Reformed Churches do refer to Jesus descending in to Hell as part their liturgies

 

[limerickman]

Lim I am afraid you are mistaken here. The Nicene creed is the more common creed recited at mass, but the apostles creed is occasionaly used in it's place. The Apostles creed is used during Lent at our parish, I imagine it is thus used throughout the world, but I am not sure of this. It is also the creed recited in the Rosary and in other devotional prayers.

The Nicene Creed is used here, every Sunday and each feast day, in the Liturgy of the Mass.
The Nicene Creed is used in our parish during Lent as well.

 

[ilpirata]

Looking it up on Wikepedia, it is altogether possible what you say is true (that in your experience it is not used at mass). They give a good discussion on the origins of the creed, it predates the Nicene creed. The Nicene creed was an expansion of the Apostles creed, that had the purpose of refuting Arianism among other things, see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostles_Creed



from which I copy also:
Roman Catholic Profession of Faith at Mass

The Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed is given first place in the text of the Roman Missal; but "the baptismal symbol of the Church of Rome, called the Apostles' Creed" may be used in its place, "especially in Lent and Eastertide" (Ordinary of the Mass, 19). The latter Creed is generally preferred also at Masses for children.

The Nicene Creed is used here, every Sunday and each feast day, in the Liturgy of the Mass.
The Nicene Creed is used in our parish during Lent as well.

 

[Carrera]

As I said, I used to attend a church myself and was once involved in the evangelical denomination. That was before my change of attitude towards religious faith which, to summarize, means I didn't go on to exclude the possibility of God exisiting but no longer follow any organized religion.
Here is what I was taught as an evangelical. I don't know how close it is to Catholicism.
We were taught Christ died for our sins as a sacrifice so salvation came from believing Christ was the son of God, equal to the Father and Holy Spirit, i.e. the Trinity.
We were taught that only those who believed in the Gospel were saved.
We were taught that the Devil and Hell existed.
More worryingly we were taught eternal damnation and hell fire awaited us unless we accepted Christ was the son of God and died for our sins.
I sense the dispute between yourself and Rider means Rider's views seem to come closer to those of my old Church while your own views seem to be more "liberal" and less "rigid".
So what we seem to have is the very typical scenario of a case of one Christian who leaves scripture open to some flexibility and another Christian who's stricter with regard to the literal side.
Seeing as the discussion is interesting for those of us who are following it, I hope you two guys keep the discussion going while keeping it friendly (and keeping a sense of humour).
Besides, as I said, I haven't noticed any signs of extremism on the soapbox from the folks who are Christians.
Nope, what tends to get up my nose is some of the American posters on other websites who keep writing "Amen!" at the finish of their posts, declaring stuff like "blessed be God!", "Praise be!" and the list goes on. Yet the theme we're supposed to be discussing on those occasions has nothing to do with religion.
Fortunately Colorado Rider and Wolfix seem to refrain from this kind of activity which comes as a relief. I don't mind folks declaring they're Christians or Moslems or Orthodox Jews openly and I have no intention of ridiculing folk over their beliefs.
It's just all these "Amens", "Hallelujahs" and what have you on other sites strikes me as way way over the top.
I worry about this current wave of religious fervour in the U.S.A. lately. I suspect it's getting somewhat out of hand.

Issues of tenets of faith and belief are emotive subjects.
I suppose it depends on the individuals.




Let me clarify for you, Carerra.
I am not disputing the existence of hell - for all Roman Catholics, hell exists.

What I have disputed with Rider is his interpretation of RCC teaching, who can be saved according to St John's Gospel, the content of the Creed used in the Mass.

 

[Bro Deal]

Seeing as the discussion is interesting for those of us who are following it, I hope you two guys keep the discussion going while keeping it friendly (and keeping a sense of humour).

I do find this stuff rather interesting. Being an atheist and all, it's rather pointless to me; but I find it quite interesting that people argue over interpretations of things based on faith, which without evidence are ultimately unknowable and unprovable.

 

[Carrera]

This comes from the Apocalypse of Peter. It's a description of what awaits non-believers (so watch out Dave M.C.!!) Scroll way down and read the descriptions.
Reading this kind of scare-mongering and psychological blackmail (below), I find myself horrified.
Note, how the scenes of torment are praised as being "righteous" and that these folks are supposedly to be tormented for matters of lesbianism or abortion or simply adultery.
Now I ask the logical question: Are we really to believe that free-thinking human beings are to eternally tortured because they happen to, er, enjoy sex out of marriage (as other animals do), choose not to believe in a 2000 year old event or made a balanced judgement and choose not to believe in God?
Many people claim religion is filled with messages of peace and that Jesus, above all, represnted the true image of a loving creator. Yet, according to Ragi Omar, even Jesus refers to a Syro Phoenician woman as a "dog" because she wasn't of similar race to the Apostles. That is, he says it wouldn't be right to take food from the children and throw it to the dogs.
Ragi goes on to explain how racially offensive the term "dog" was in ancient times yet U.S, evangelicals believe every word in the Bible is to be taken literally.
So, what gives?

Apocalypse oO Peter:

24 And there were also others, women, hanged by their hair above that mire which boiled up; and these were they that adorned themselves for adultery.

And the men that were joined with them in the defilement of adultery were hanging by their feet, and had their heads hidden in the mire, and said: We believed not that we should come unto this place.

25 And I saw the murderers and them that were consenting to them cast into a strait place full of evil, creeping things, and smitten by those beasts, and so turning themselves about in that torment. And upon them were set worms like clouds of darkness. And the souls of them that were murdered stood and looked upon the torment of those murderers and said: O God, righteous is thy judgement.

26 And hard by that place I saw another strait place wherein the discharge and the stench of them that were in torment ran down, and there was as it were a lake there. And there sat women up to their necks in that liquor, and over against them many children which were born out of due time sat crying: and from them went forth rays of fire and smote the women in the eyes: and these were they that conceived out of wedlock (?) and caused abortion.
27 And other men and women were being burned up to their middle and cast down in a dark place and scourged by evil spirits, and having their entrails devoured by worms that rested not. And these were they that had persecuted the righteous and delivered them up.

28 And near to them again were women and men gnawing their lips and in torment, and having iron heated in the fire set against their eyes. And these were they that did blaspheme and speak evil of the way of righteousness.

29 And over against these were yet others, men and women, gnawing their tongues and having flaming fire in their mouths. And these were the false witnesses.

30 And in another place were gravel-stones sharper than swords or any spit, heated with fire, and men and women clad in filthy rags rolled upon them in torment. [This is suggested by the LXX of two passages in Job: xli. 30, his bed is of sharp spits; viii. 17, on an heap of stones doth he rest, and shall live in the midst of gravel-stones.] And these were they that were rich and trusted in their riches, and had no pity upon orphans and widows but neglected the commandments of God.

31 And in another great lake full of foul matter (pus) and blood and boiling mire stood men and women up to their knees And these were they that lent money and demanded usury upon usury.

32 And other men and women being cast down from a great rock (precipice) fell (came) to the bottom, and again were driven by them that were set over them, to go up upon the rock, and thence were cast down to the bottom and had no rest from this torment. And these were they that did defile their bodies behaving as women: and the women that were with them were they that lay with one another as a man with a woman.

33 And beside that rock was a place full of much fire, and there stood men which with their own hands had made images for themselves instead of God, [And beside them other men and women] having rods of fire and smiting one another and never resting from this manner of torment....

34 And yet others near unto them, men and women, burning and turning themselves about and roasted as in a pan. And these were they that forsook the way of God."

 

[Carrera]

Reading the above, you can see why it was the Romans considered all of this a source of trouble and provocation. The Romans were known for their tolerance of diversity, sexual liberty, freedom of belief and worship and tolerance.
Little wonder that the preachings against sex and threats of hellfire irritated the Roman authorities and led to tensions (the first being under Nero).
There were complaints from married Senators that their wives were giving up sex after joining Churches and taking vows of celibacy. This is why the Romans got a wee bit upset.

 

[Colorado Ryder]

Lim I am afraid you are mistaken here. The Nicene creed is the more common creed recited at mass, but the apostles creed is occasionaly used in it's place. The Apostles creed is used during Lent at our parish, I imagine it is thus used throughout the world, but I am not sure of this. It is also the creed recited in the Rosary and in other devotional prayers.

Thank you Il Pirata. I've attended Mass at several Catholic churches during business trips and found that some use the Nicene Creed and some use the Apostle's Creed. Probably depends on the church, since BOTH creeds hold a special honor in the Church. Limerickman denies that Christ descended into hell because it is not in the Nicene Creed. If he reads the catechism, under the section "The Profession of Faith" it lists both creeds and that neither supercedes or renders the other irrelavant. It also states that we are to believe them particularly and distinctly.

 

[limerickman]

As I said, I used to attend a church myself and was once involved in the evangelical denomination. That was before my change of attitude towards religious faith which, to summarize, means I didn't go on to exclude the possibility of God exisiting but no longer follow any organized religion.
Here is what I was taught as an evangelical. I don't know how close it is to Catholicism.
We were taught Christ died for our sins as a sacrifice so salvation came from believing Christ was the son of God, equal to the Father and Holy Spirit, i.e. the Trinity.
We were taught that only those who believed in the Gospel were saved.
We were taught that the Devil and Hell existed.
More worryingly we were taught eternal damnation and hell fire awaited us unless we accepted Christ was the son of God and died for our sins.
I sense the dispute between yourself and Rider means Rider's views seem to come closer to those of my old Church while your own views seem to be more "liberal" and less "rigid".
So what we seem to have is the very typical scenario of a case of one Christian who leaves scripture open to some flexibility and another Christian who's stricter with regard to the literal side.
Seeing as the discussion is interesting for those of us who are following it, I hope you two guys keep the discussion going while keeping it friendly (and keeping a sense of humour).
Besides, as I said, I haven't noticed any signs of extremism on the soapbox from the folks who are Christians.
Nope, what tends to get up my nose is some of the American posters on other websites who keep writing "Amen!" at the finish of their posts, declaring stuff like "blessed be God!", "Praise be!" and the list goes on. Yet the theme we're supposed to be discussing on those occasions has nothing to do with religion.
Fortunately Colorado Rider and Wolfix seem to refrain from this kind of activity which comes as a relief. I don't mind folks declaring they're Christians or Moslems or Orthodox Jews openly and I have no intention of ridiculing folk over their beliefs.
It's just all these "Amens", "Hallelujahs" and what have you on other sites strikes me as way way over the top.
I worry about this current wave of religious fervour in the U.S.A. lately. I suspect it's getting somewhat out of hand.

It's hard to quantify how or why one follows a faith or has a belief in God.
I suppose followers are presuaded to believe on a subjective and objective level.
What is certainly a factor, I think, is ones upbringing : if one is born in to a family who have a particular faith, then it is likely that one will be exposed to a particular set of beliefs.
That doesn't mean that one will remain in that faith throughout later life.

But as BD alluded too - I think faith, by it's nature, entails doubt.
It's hard to articulate what I mean by doubt.
When you see what appears to be an apparent injustice, doubt can arise.
I know I do doubt my faith at times - and I am sure others doubt their belief at times too.

There is the concept that faith is a gift from God as well.

The entire subject of faith/belief while very interesting, is extremely complex.

I do find the views of Atheists/Agnostics interesting - and reading about how they have arrived at their own conclusion about views.

 

[Colorado Ryder]

It's hard to quantify how or why one follows a faith or has a belief in God.
I suppose followers are presuaded to believe on a subjective and objective level.
What is certainly a factor, I think, is ones upbringing : if one is born in to a family who have a particular faith, then it is likely that one will be exposed to a particular set of beliefs.
That doesn't mean that one will remain in that faith throughout later life.

But as BD alluded too - I think faith, by it's nature, entails doubt.
It's hard to articulate what I mean by doubt.
When you see what appears to be an apparent injustice, doubt can arise.
I know I do doubt my faith at times - and I am sure others doubt their belief at times too.

I understand exactly what you mean.

 

[limerickman]

I understand exactly what you mean.

Well we agree on something CR !

 

[Colorado Ryder]

Well we agree on something CR !

And they say miracles don't happen any more.

 

[limerickman]

I think Carerra referred to the USA earlier : I'm reading a book called Colossus
by Prof.Niall Ferguson and a statistic he quotes is

% of population who attend weekly religious service (service being a religious service in any/all religions) : USA 47%, Europe 20%, Eastern Europe 14%

% of people who regard God as being important/very important : USA 83%,
Europe 49%, Eastern Europe 39%

% of people who do not think that God exists : USA 2%, Europe 18%, Eastern Europe 21%.

This was data collected in a Gallup poll.

 

[Colorado Ryder]

I think Carerra referred to the USA earlier : I'm reading a book called Colossus
by Prof.Niall Ferguson and a statistic he quotes is

% of population who attend weekly religious service (service being a religious service in any/all religions) : USA 47%, Europe 20%, Eastern Europe 14%

% of people who regard God as being important/very important : USA 83%,
Europe 49%, Eastern Europe 39%

% of people who do not think that God exists : USA 2%, Europe 18%, Eastern Europe 21%.

This was data collected in a Gallup poll.

The US still retains much of its Puritan beginnings. We have some of the most outrageous movies, TV, literature, music. Yet we are outraged by these same things.

 

[Carrera]

This was serialised, Lim. I saw some of it on T.V.
Without a doubt I've noticed a worrying tide of religious fervour within the U.S. lately. Thus far, I haven't witnessed too many folks ending their posts with exclamations of "Amen!" or "Praise be!" e.t.c. but I'm seeing this far more on other websites. It's always Americans who tend to be behind it.
I have no axe to grind against those folks who believe in God and Jesus but dislike it when it's carried over into non related topics online.

I think Carerra referred to the USA earlier : I'm reading a book called Colossus
by Prof.Niall Ferguson and a statistic he quotes is

% of population who attend weekly religious service (service being a religious service in any/all religions) : USA 47%, Europe 20%, Eastern Europe 14%

% of people who regard God as being important/very important : USA 83%,
Europe 49%, Eastern Europe 39%

% of people who do not think that God exists : USA 2%, Europe 18%, Eastern Europe 21%.

This was data collected in a Gallup poll.

 

[Carrera]

This idea of a belief in God is tricky. My principal objection to organised religion is that whoever God may be, he's personified as a human being, whether he be Zeus, Yahweh, Allah or Jesus.
This seems to me to elevate human beings possibly above their actual scope. After all, if Dolphins were the dominant species today, to them God would be a dolphin too.
It seems to this idea of all bad things coming from the devil and all good things coming from God is a far too simplistic argument. There is no real acknowledgement that these bad things happen due to overpopulation (which leads to war), overloading of the eco system (which causes famine) or even abuse of the environment.
A lot of bad things happen because we don't live in harmony with Mother Nature and we have the audacity to consider other animals as unimportant or not having a good deal of importance.

It's hard to quantify how or why one follows a faith or has a belief in God.
I suppose followers are presuaded to believe on a subjective and objective level.
What is certainly a factor, I think, is ones upbringing : if one is born in to a family who have a particular faith, then it is likely that one will be exposed to a particular set of beliefs.
That doesn't mean that one will remain in that faith throughout later life.

But as BD alluded too - I think faith, by it's nature, entails doubt.
It's hard to articulate what I mean by doubt.
When you see what appears to be an apparent injustice, doubt can arise.
I know I do doubt my faith at times - and I am sure others doubt their belief at times too.

There is the concept that faith is a gift from God as well.

The entire subject of faith/belief while very interesting, is extremely complex.

I do find the views of Atheists/Agnostics interesting - and reading about how they have arrived at their own conclusion about views.

 

[Bro Deal]

% of population who attend weekly religious service (service being a religious service in any/all religions) : USA 47%, Europe 20%, Eastern Europe 14%

That does not quite give a good picture. A lot of urban environments are not very religious then you have vast stretches of rural or suburban areas in middle states that have 90+%. I happen to live in one of these places and it is weird. There literally is a church every two blocks, no exaggeration.