Ammonia



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N

Nobody760

Guest
According to the venerable Sheldon Brown the best way to free a 'bond' between steel and aluminium
is with ammonia. The sit pin on my mountain bike is solid, have tried household ammonia but notice
on the bottle it says contains 9.5% ammonia. What sort of strength do you need? Chemist says he does
not have strong ammonia (100%?).

Have tried the conventional mechanical methods.

Help appreciated. Cheers.
 
M

Malcolm Stewart

Guest
"nobody760" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> According to the venerable Sheldon Brown the best way to free a 'bond' between steel and
> aluminium is with ammonia. The sit pin on my mountain bike is solid, have tried household
> ammonia but notice on the bottle it says contains 9.5% ammonia. What sort of strength do
> you need? Chemist says he does not have strong ammonia (100%?). Have tried the
> conventional mechanical methods. Help appreciated. Cheers.

100% Ammonia is the gas NH3 (where the "3" is a subscript). It dissolves in water, and the strongest
solution is about 33%, and called "880" from the density being 0.880 that of pure water. Very
difficult to obtain, and extremely pungent. I've got some described as "MAX Power Ammonia" from
Challs International Ltd. The strength isn't stated on the container but there's an "Irritant"
label. See www.challs.com (where it's listed as 9.5% )

For stronger stuff, you need to go to an industrial chemicals supplier, and will need an account
before they will deal with you.

--
M Stewart Milton Keynes, UK www.megalith.freeserve.co.uk/oddimage.htm
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/ms1938/
 
A

Andyp

Guest
"Malcolm Stewart" <[email protected]> wrote

> 100% Ammonia is the gas NH3 (where the "3" is a subscript). It dissolves in water, and the
> strongest solution is about 33%, and called
"880"
> from the density being 0.880 that of pure water. Very difficult to
obtain, and
> extremely pungent.

The science dept. of your local school will have some and might help a cyclist in despair out.
Causes burns to your skin and extreme discomfort if you breathe it. Not something you'd want to
splosh over your bike in the kitchen.
 
E

Elyob

Guest
"AndyP" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Malcolm Stewart" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> > 100% Ammonia is the gas NH3 (where the "3" is a subscript). It dissolves in water, and the
> > strongest solution is about 33%, and
called
> "880"
> > from the density being 0.880 that of pure water. Very difficult to
> obtain, and
> > extremely pungent.
>
> The science dept. of your local school will have some and might help a cyclist in despair out.
> Causes burns to your skin and extreme discomfort
if
> you breathe it. Not something you'd want to splosh over your bike in the kitchen.

and naked ....
 
V

Vernon Levy

Guest
> The science dept. of your local school will have some and might help a cyclist in despair out.
> Causes burns to your skin and extreme discomfort
if
> you breathe it. Not something you'd want to splosh over your bike in the kitchen.

Sadly, health and safety regulations make it extremely unlikely that school science departments will
release any chemicals to the public, they may not even be allowd to have it in stock any more..
Regulations have tightened to such an extent that many of the things that I used to do as end of
term treats became dismissable offences. I took my bat home and migrated to Information Technology
and now teach hacking and computer misuse instead :)

No electrons were harmed during the composition of this message.

Vernon in Leeds
 
A

Andyp

Guest
"vernon levy" <[email protected]> wrote

> Sadly, health and safety regulations make it extremely unlikely that
school
> science departments will release any chemicals to the public, they may not even be allowd to have
> it in stock any more.. Regulations have tightened
to
> such an extent that many of the things that I used to do as end of term treats became dismissable
> offences.

As I understand it from all the CLEAPSS health and safety stuff very few chemicals or experiments
are actually banned from schools on a national level but individual LEAs or other governing bodies
may make their own rules. New teachers that come to our school from different areas think that the
thermit reaction is banned for example or even the use of model steam engines or the dissection of
eyes. What kind of things were you talking about being dismissable offences? Anything interesting I
should try out?

Oh, and no, handing out conc. ammonia to anyone that asked for it might not be very wise but if they
brought their bike in I'd squirt a bit on for them.
 
A

Andyp

Guest
"redshift" <[email protected]> wrote

> That would why nobody's kids are interested in chemistry any more then...
>
> (Oh the heady days of butanoic acid, acetyl chloride and bits of sodium and potassium whizzing
> about on the water...)

We've got quite a large surplus of sodium for some bizarre reason. (I found a coffee jar full of the
stuff under a pile of junk in the fume cupboard when I first started at our school). Keep meaning to
take it with me next time I go camping by some remote loch in Scotland.
 
M

Mark Thompson

Guest
> For stronger stuff, you need to go to an industrial chemicals supplier, and will need an account
> before they will deal with you.

Getting the account shouldn't be too much of a problem - a journalist recently got a load of dodgy
stuff from a supllier even though he called himself Osama Bin Ladin! I guess they just thought he'd
be a good customer - and pay in cash too!

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.587 / Virus Database: 371 - Release Date: 12/02/2004
 
M

Mark Thompson

Guest
Regulations have tightened to
> such an extent that many of the things that I used to do as end of term treats became dismissable
> offences.

That annoyed me. They banned all the fun explosive type stuff then wondered why people stopped
taking science!

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.587 / Virus Database: 371 - Release Date: 12/02/2004
 
A

Andyp

Guest
"Mark Thompson" <[email protected]

> > For stronger stuff, you need to go to an industrial chemicals supplier,
and
> > will need an account before they will deal with you.

> Getting the account shouldn't be too much of a problem - a journalist
recently
> got a load of dodgy stuff from a supllier even though he called himself
Osama
> Bin Ladin! I guess they just thought he'd be a good customer - and pay in
cash
> too!

I've picked up conc. HCl from a chemical supplier with no ID to say I worked anywhere that might
have any legitimate use for it and paying in cash.
 
A

Andyp

Guest
"Mark Thompson" <[email protected]

> That annoyed me. They banned all the fun explosive type stuff then
wondered why
> people stopped taking science!

Such as?
 
V

Vernon Levy

Guest
> What kind of things were you talking about being dismissable offences? Anything interesting I
> should try out?

Funniliy enough the top offender uses conc. ammonia and iodine to make ammonium triodide, an
unstable explosive....small quantities (lentil sized) is manageable but I like chemistry in bucket
quantities :)

A lot of authorities ban anything that leads to explosions which for me eliminated the combustion of
gallon quantity stiochometric mixes of oxygen and gaseous alkanes out in the playing fields, a lot
of the organic chemicals and some inorganic stock was banned.

Whatever's left in the chemical stock cupboard is entirely dependent on the diligence of the
technicians, their intepretations of CLEAPSS and local authority rules and regulations, the
activities of LEA inspectors and how successful you are at hiding the 'interesting stuff' :)

We once got a major bollocking because our sandwiches shared fridge space with pickled rats and
other biolocical specimens. Our arguments that it boosted our immune systems was not well received
by the po faced jobsworth.

> Oh, and no, handing out conc. ammonia to anyone that asked for it might
not
> be very wise but if they brought their bike in I'd squirt a bit on for
them.

A sensible compromise :)

Vernon, the urban terrorist in Leeds :)
 
M

Martin Family

Guest
On 14/2/04 7:16 am, in article [email protected], "vernon
levy" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>> What kind of things were you talking about being dismissable offences? Anything interesting I
>> should try out?
>
> Funniliy enough the top offender uses conc. ammonia and iodine to make ammonium triodide, an
> unstable explosive....small quantities (lentil sized) is manageable but I like chemistry in bucket
> quantities :)

It certainly makes things go with a bang. A teaspoon sized pile going up during a lesson (it had
been left on top of a cupboard to dry and is unstable above 25C or under pressure) made one hell of
a noise. ;-)

This was some time ago. We also did things like drop sodium in conc nitric acid (in a beaker in a
trough of water). It blew the bottom out of the beaker.

An inch cube of sodium in a fire bucket certainly teaches respect for chemicals in quantity,
something the poxy little piece of fizzy lithium doesn't do.

Normal party balloons full of hydrogen/oxygen are entertaining (outside).

Lots of other fun things too.. most of which are probably thought of as being too dangerous. It is
the danger that teaches respect.

> A lot of authorities ban anything that leads to explosions which for me eliminated the combustion
> of gallon quantity stiochometric mixes of oxygen and gaseous alkanes out in the playing fields, a
> lot of the organic chemicals and some inorganic stock was banned.

How to kill off enthusiasm for science..

> We once got a major bollocking because our sandwiches shared fridge space with pickled rats and
> other biolocical specimens. Our arguments that it boosted our immune systems was not well received
> by the po faced jobsworth.

We got told off for having an out of date bottle in our fridge. The reasoning was that it would
degenerate into dangerous compounds. The bottle originally contained 100 vol hydrogen peroxide.

At the same time I was told off for having an unlabled bottle of a blue coloured solution for a
particular protocol. So I labelled it 'Blue protocol solution' and everyone was happy. Go figure!

..d
 
M

Michael Green

Guest
"nobody760" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> According to the venerable Sheldon Brown the best way to free a 'bond' between steel and aluminium
> is with ammonia. The sit pin on my mountain bike is solid, have tried household ammonia but notice
> on the bottle it says contains 9.5% ammonia. What sort of strength do you need? Chemist says he
> does not have strong ammonia (100%?).
>
> Have tried the conventional mechanical methods.
>
> Help appreciated. Cheers.

Heat, from a hair drier rather than a blowtorch, and repeated application of penetrating oil, the
sort with graphite, over a period of several days did it for me. Best of luck.
 
G

Gareth A .

Guest
On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 11:08:45 +0000, Martin Family
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On 14/2/04 7:16 am, in article [email protected], "vernon levy"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>> What kind of things were you talking about being dismissable offences? Anything interesting I
>>> should try out?
>>
>
>An inch cube of sodium in a fire bucket certainly teaches respect for chemicals in quantity,
>something the poxy little piece of fizzy lithium doesn't do.

You'll love this site

http://www.theodoregray.com/PeriodicTable/Stories/011.2/

Gareth
 
D

Dave Kahn

Guest
On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 11:08:45 +0000, Martin Family
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On 14/2/04 7:16 am, in article [email protected], "vernon levy"
><[email protected]> wrote:

>> Funniliy enough the top offender uses conc. ammonia and iodine to make ammonium triodide, an
>> unstable explosive....small quantities (lentil sized) is manageable but I like chemistry in
>> bucket quantities :)
>
>It certainly makes things go with a bang. A teaspoon sized pile going up during a lesson (it had
>been left on top of a cupboard to dry and is unstable above 25C or under pressure) made one hell of
>a noise. ;-)
>
>This was some time ago. We also did things like drop sodium in conc nitric acid (in a beaker in a
>trough of water). It blew the bottom out of the beaker.
>
>An inch cube of sodium in a fire bucket certainly teaches respect for chemicals in quantity,
>something the poxy little piece of fizzy lithium doesn't do.
>
>Normal party balloons full of hydrogen/oxygen are entertaining (outside).
>
>Lots of other fun things too.. most of which are probably thought of as being too dangerous. It is
>the danger that teaches respect.

When I was at Nottingham University in the early 70s there was only one lecture you had actually to
pay to get into. It was always over-subscribed so there would be a number of repeat performances
over about a week. Queues would form early and the more cautious would avoid sitting in the first
half dozen rows. The lecture started with a demonstration of Krakatoa exploding and built up from
there. During the lecture, which included a tallow candle being fired through a barn door, some 40
explosions were set off, each slightly bigger than the one before. More about the lecture and the
great B.D. Shaw can be found here: http://www.rsc.org/lap/educatio/eic/2001/booth_nov01.htm

--
Dave...

Get a bicycle. You will not regret it. If you live. - Mark Twain
 
G

G

Guest
In message <[email protected]>
"vernon levy" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > What kind of things were you talking about being dismissable offences? Anything interesting I
> > should try out?
>
> Funniliy enough the top offender uses conc. ammonia and iodine to make ammonium triodide, an
> unstable explosive....small quantities (lentil sized) is manageable but I like chemistry in
> bucket quantities :)
>
> A lot of authorities ban anything that leads to explosions which for me eliminated the combustion
> of gallon quantity stiochometric mixes of oxygen and gaseous alkanes out in the playing fields,

Try 30 litres of Oxy-acetylene in a polythene tube ... from a good distance... I was too close
for comfort.

But then exploding hot water tanks are extremely dangerous

>
>
>

--
Gwyn
 
V

Vernon Levy

Guest
> Try 30 litres of Oxy-acetylene in a polythene tube ... from a good distance... I was too close for
> comfort.
>
> But then exploding hot water tanks are extremely dangerous

As an undergraduate my shared student house used to specialise in dustbin quntities of acetylene -
air detonated by throwing lit matches as the slightly askew dustbin lid. The dull boom, 12' diameter
fireball and bin lid hurtling skywards accompanied by the cacophony of neighbourhood startled dogs
made it all worth while :) I guess 6' from the bin was too close for comfort too when I trimmed my
hair with the fireball =:cool:
 
D

David E. Belche

Guest
Andy Leighton <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
> Oh so we wouldn't be allowed to try and synthesize TNT anymore then? We didn't quite manage it -
> it is quite difficult with the school equipment we had.

TNT is actually quite an easy one to do, requiring (from memory) concentrated nitric acid and
toluene; the latter is quite popular as a solvent in educational establishments (well, in higher
education at least) these days, having largely superseded the structurally similar, but more
hazardous to health, benzene.

David E. Belcher
 
A

Andy Leighton

Guest
On 16 Feb 2004 11:04:20 -0800,
David E. Belcher <[email protected]> wrote:
> Andy Leighton <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:<[email protected]>...
>>
>> Oh so we wouldn't be allowed to try and synthesize TNT anymore then? We didn't quite manage it -
>> it is quite difficult with the school equipment we had.
>
> TNT is actually quite an easy one to do, requiring (from memory) concentrated nitric acid and
> toluene; the latter is quite popular as a solvent in educational establishments (well, in higher
> education at least) these days, having largely superseded the structurally similar, but more
> hazardous to health, benzene.

Well nitric acid on its own isn't enough - you will need conc. Sulphuric as well. Both of these
should be fuming. If the acids are not concentrated enough - the final step from di-nitro to tri-
nitro is the problem.

Industry tends to use a different process to the bung the stuff in a beaker type approach we took.

--
Andy Leighton => [email protected] "The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep
dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_
 
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