Analyze this...Climbing issue

[Mish]

I've read similar posts that get replies to lose weight.
I am 42 yrs. 6'0" 165 and look skinny. Can't lose much more weight.
I have no problem keeping up on the flats. I often get bored sitting in.
My heart rate goes to 185 and I get dropped on hills.
The hills here last for only a few minutes (never timed one) and I am geared to spin at 75+.
I ride an '02 Lemond Zurich, so the bike weight, although not light, isn't the issue. I can only ride 2 to 3 times a week and really want to be the best climber in the group.

 

[RapDaddyo]

I've read similar posts that get replies to lose weight.
I am 42 yrs. 6'0" 165 and look skinny. Can't lose much more weight.
I have no problem keeping up on the flats. I often get bored sitting in.
My heart rate goes to 185 and I get dropped on hills.
The hills here last for only a few minutes (never timed one) and I am geared to spin at 75+.
I ride an '02 Lemond Zurich, so the bike weight, although not light, isn't the issue. I can only ride 2 to 3 times a week and really want to be the best climber in the group.

Riding on the flat, even at a pretty good speed, and climbing are two totally different cycling disciplines. On the flat, you get to rest more than you may think. And, riding with a group, even if you go to the front and pull from time to time, actually doesn't require all that much power. Climbing is all about sustainable power. There is no resting and there is no drafting. I'd recommend long climbing intervals (min 15 mins) at about 90% of your max sustainable power at that duration. Shorter intervals may increase your short duration speed, but it sounds like what you are lacking (relative to where you want to be) is sustainable power, not short duration speed. Good luck.

 

[SolarEnergy]

I agree 200% with RD. Two course type, two different worlds. The same statement applies also for the technical aspect of it. On the flat, one may consider :
- Aerodynamic body position
- Cadence
- Position on the bike that favors the best leg angles to apply forces in an efficent way

But on the hills :
- Postion for "On the saddle climbing" may be a bit different (to favor better leg extention)
- Some prefer to not only push (downstroke) but pull (active recovery of the leg)
- Body weight tranfert while climbing off the saddle

The economy/efficiency, while climbing, requires that you perform a lot of testing. To learn who you are as a climber.

 

[Mish]

I'd recommend long climbing intervals (min 15 mins) at about 90% of your max sustainable power at that duration. Shorter intervals may increase your short duration speed, but it sounds like what you are lacking (relative to where you want to be) is sustainable power, not short duration speed. Good luck.

The longest climb (actually includes some flat) in my area is only 8 minutes when I push it. Turning around to do it again won't give me what I need. I have a wind trainer and rollers if those could help.

 

[frenchyge]

Riding on the flat, even at a pretty good speed, and climbing are two totally different cycling disciplines. On the flat, you get to rest more than you may think. And, riding with a group, even if you go to the front and pull from time to time, actually doesn't require all that much power. Climbing is all about sustainable power. There is no resting and there is no drafting.

It's fun to see that when I'm using a PM with a group. Sitting in on the flats may only take ~100-150w (at 22mph), but when things turn uphill the power goes >350W for *everyone* in the group. That's why hills are such good places to weed out the pack. I know the guy up front is really driving if he can make me go greater than ~400-450w just to stay with the train going up a hill.

 

[RapDaddyo]

The longest climb (actually includes some flat) in my area is only 8 minutes when I push it. Turning around to do it again won't give me what I need. I have a wind trainer and rollers if those could help.

Yeah, I think the 8 mins is a bit short for the kind of intervals I would want to do if I were in your position with your training goals. The problem with the flats and rollers is that, unless you're riding into a strong headwind it's hard to keep your power up in the desired range. It's just easier to get it there and keep it there into a good wind or uphill (even a slight grade of 2-3% will do). The trainer would do the trick if you can stand the boredom. If I were in your situation, I'd focus on intervals in the upper range of 10-30 mins at L4 power (per AC's schema -- there's an equivalent in Ric's schema). The goal is sustainable power. Unless your drivetrain puts you outside your preferred cadence range, that sustainable power will transfer just fine to climbing. If your drivetrain puts you outside the range of your preferred cadences, change it.

 

[Adam-from-SLO]

I've read similar posts that get replies to lose weight.
I am 42 yrs. 6'0" 165 and look skinny. Can't lose much more weight.
I have no problem keeping up on the flats. I often get bored sitting in.
My heart rate goes to 185 and I get dropped on hills.
The hills here last for only a few minutes (never timed one) and I am geared to spin at 75+.
I ride an '02 Lemond Zurich, so the bike weight, although not light, isn't the issue. I can only ride 2 to 3 times a week and really want to be the best climber in the group.

I dont get it

You want to be the best climber in the group - well then master those 8 minute hills . Maybe doing some lower body weights could do you some good If there are NO long- sustaining hill/mountain passes where you live....... then everyone else in the group are either 1. doing the same routes as you are......., or 2. some people are traveling in there 4 wheeled vehicle to distant places w/ there bike , to do sustained interval hill climbing(in which case... they may have the upper hand).

Where do you live ?

 

[artmichalek]

The hills here last for only a few minutes (never timed one) and I am geared to spin at 75+.
I ride an '02 Lemond Zurich, so the bike weight, although not light, isn't the issue. I can only ride 2 to 3 times a week and really want to be the best climber in the group.

75 rpm isn't really spinning. For shorter hills, technique is every bit as important as fitness. One thing to try is to downshift and wind up to a really high cadence (90-100rpm) right before the base of the climb. Spin hard in the saddle as long until your cadence drops back down to ~70, then get up and crush it. You don't want to shift gears during the climb unless you really have to.

 

[frenchyge]

75 rpm isn't really spinning. For shorter hills, technique is every bit as important as fitness. One thing to try is to downshift and wind up to a really high cadence (90-100rpm) right before the base of the climb.

Hey, that's *my* secret technique. At first, while I was reading, I thought "here's a guy who's really nailed what I personally attribute as the key to my being strong on the rolling hills around here." I pick up the pedal at the bottom of the hill, usually before everyone else, and get the pedals moving fast before the resistance of the hill starts to slow the bike down at all.

Spin hard in the saddle as long until your cadence drops back down to ~70, then get up and crush it. You don't want to shift gears during the climb unless you really have to.

Here's where you lost me. I pop down a gear every few seconds to keep the momentum of the bike going without letting the resistance build up against my legs for as long as possible. My cadence stays nice and even during the whole climb, and there's no crushing to speak of. The ~70rpm, 'crush' technique is a recipe for race-ending leg cramps, as far as I've seen. The sound of high-tension gear crunching from behind me is a delight to the ears...

 

[artmichalek]

Here's where you lost me. I pop down a gear every few seconds to keep the momentum of the bike going without letting the resistance build up against my legs for as long as possible. My cadence stays nice and even during the whole climb, and there's no crushing to speak of. The ~70rpm, 'crush' technique is a recipe for race-ending leg cramps, as far as I've seen. The sound of high-tension gear crunching from behind me is a delight to the ears...

I guess it depends on the length of the hill. If it's a short climb, I can usually hit the bottom in the lowest gear that I'm going to need. It's the shifting that kills my momentum. As for the 'crush' part, if you pick the right gear you should only be out of the saddle for a few seconds if at all.

 

[Pureshot78]

I've read similar posts that get replies to lose weight.
I am 42 yrs. 6'0" 165 and look skinny. Can't lose much more weight.
I have no problem keeping up on the flats. I often get bored sitting in.
My heart rate goes to 185 and I get dropped on hills.
The hills here last for only a few minutes (never timed one) and I am geared to spin at 75+.
I ride an '02 Lemond Zurich, so the bike weight, although not light, isn't the issue. I can only ride 2 to 3 times a week and really want to be the best climber in the group.

My experience has been the same as some of the other responses here. Sustainable power seems to be an issue. Another aspect that is overlooked is Lactate clearance. I spent a considerable amount of time working on my sustainable power i.e. long climbs and time trial rides, yet found myself getting dropped when there would be two or three climbs in a row. I concluded that my lactate clearance was not good enough and am planning to work on threshold intervals more this season.

 

[Mish]

then everyone else in the group are either 1. doing the same routes as you are......., or 2. some people are traveling in there 4 wheeled vehicle to distant places w/ there bike , to do sustained interval hill climbing(in which case... they may have the upper hand).

Where do you live ?

None of the group travel to train. The best climbers in this group also like to weight train. Some just push it on every hill every time.
I live in the Raleigh, NC area. 2 hours to the beach, 2 hours to the mountains (large hills)

 

[Tubbs]

2 hours to the beach, 2 hours to the mountains (large hills)

This is gonna sound cheesy... but aside from some of the really good posts on here, how about making a weekend of it and taking a 2 hour trip to those mountains once in a while. I bet that would do you a little good. It's good to get out of town every now and then.

 

[Adam-from-SLO]

This is gonna sound cheesy... but aside from some of the really good posts on here, how about making a weekend of it and taking a 2 hour trip to those mountains once in a while. I bet that would do you a little good. It's good to get out of town every now and then.

I was going to suggest the same thing..... however the dillema of rising gas costs can/do weigh into the decision factor ........ or ride your bike to the 2 hour destination , camp out , then the next day do the big hills

 

[williv]

None of the group travel to train. The best climbers in this group also like to weight train. Some just push it on every hill every time.
I live in the Raleigh, NC area. 2 hours to the beach, 2 hours to the mountains (large hills)[/QUOTE}

If your goal is to to stay with the group on the hills on rides around here(I live in Raleigh as well), then why travel to the mountains to train? Unless you're going to do a race where you have extended climbs, you can get all the hill work you need locally.

I have a few suggestitons:

1. Do interval hill work at the end of a long ride
2. Stay seated and spin at at least 90rpm
3. Concentrate on pulling back with your heel down
4. Don't get out of the saddle unless you absolutely have to

Also, if you're only riding 2-3 times/week it's going to be difficult to build the necessary aerobic base to get much benefit out of interval training, so try to ride more. If you can't do that, run on your days off.

 

[Mish]

This is gonna sound cheesy... but aside from some of the really good posts on here, how about making a weekend of it and taking a 2 hour trip to those mountains once in a while. I bet that would do you a little good. It's good to get out of town every now and then.

Funny you should mention it.
I just returned from Galax VA.
Most of my 3 days was riding on rails to trails with a church group, but I did spend some time going off the flat path to climb some roads with my fixed gear.

 

[Mish]

Intervals after a ride are a doable idea.
I stay seated and try to stay at 90+
After knee surgeries my running days are over. I am going to ride at least 3 days and wondered if 1.5 hours in the early am and 2 in the early eve. present any problems. How should I plan my efforts when I split the day like that?

 

[williv]

Intervals after a ride are a doable idea.
I stay seated and try to stay at 90+
After knee surgeries my running days are over. I am going to ride at least 3 days and wondered if 1.5 hours in the early am and 2 in the early eve. present any problems. How should I plan my efforts when I split the day like that?

I know what you mean, I've had 2 knee surgeries myself and am contemplating a 3rd. I still miss running, though.

Riding twice a day should be OK, just don't go hard on each ride. You may also want to ask your riding buddies to critique your technique. Of course you might get a different opinion from everyone you ask.