"ancient" dura ace rear derailleur identification problem

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by geos, Mar 20, 2006.

  1. Dave Larrington wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > Ozark Bicycle ([email protected]) wrote:
    > >
    > > Mark Janeba wrote:
    > > > Ozark Bicycle wrote:
    > > > > geos wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > >>Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
    > > > >>
    > > > >>>>is anybody familiar with this old dura ace rear derailleur below?
    > > > >>>>
    > > > >>>>http://tinyurl.com/jjvq5
    > > > >>>
    > > > >>>Wow... hardly looks like a Shimano derailleur at all, with those sharp
    > > > >>>angles and such. Reminds me of a Campy 980 (but it isn't). I don't recall
    > > > >>>Shimano using that color scheme, so it could be that someone "created" that
    > > > >>>DuraAce derailleur, but then I just turned 50 so I may have forgotten.
    > > > >>>
    > > > >>>I'll bet Andy Muzi knows...
    > > > >>
    > > > >>thanks Mike. "home made dura ace" hypothesis is something I also
    > > > >>consider :)
    > > > >>
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > Given the location of the limit screws, I don't think it's a Shimano
    > > > > anything. Suntour??
    > > >
    > > > The adjuster barrel reminds me of SunTour, but those limit screws and
    > > > the *angular* tab below them for the anchor bolt just don't look like
    > > > SunTour.
    > > >

    > >
    > > Who else made slant parallelogram RDs with the limit screws in that
    > > location? I can't think of any. (Perhaps the limit screws themselves
    > > are not original?)

    >
    > Could it perchance be a Simplex?
    >
    > --


    I can't recall ever seeing a Simplex with a slant parallelogram, but
    maybe I'm wrong (?).
     


  2. Phil Lee writes:

    >>> is anybody familiar with this old Dura-Ace rear derailleur below?


    http://tinyurl.com/jjvq5

    >>> I couldn't find any information on the internet, even at
    >>> www.duraace.com history section.


    >>> I would appreciate your help with this, especially if you know
    >>> what year it was produced. but any information would be helpful.


    >> That is not a Dura Ace derailleur.


    >> It's a less expensive Shimano model or another brand from the
    >> mid-80s before Suntour's slant parallelogram patent expired.


    > What is this slant parallelogram thing?


    Campagnolo introduced the most popular derailleurs whose parallelogram
    action was in line with the anchor bolt or more generally in the plane
    of the wheel axle:

    http://members.aol.com/satorumas/brands/campagnolo.html

    Their movement swept upward in an arc while the gear cluster got wider
    so the chain spanned a greater distance on the outer (small) sprockets
    than on the large ones. The disadvantage was that shifting wasn't
    quick on small sprockets and the idler wheel ran into the larger
    sprockets without more chain length.

    The slant parallelogram moves the derailleur idler roughly parallel to
    the slope of the gear cluster, keeping the free chain span to a
    minimum and making shifting quicker and more precise. In fact this is
    what makes indexed shifting practical because it does not require
    over-shifting to move the chain to a larger sprocket.

    http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Japan/suntour_rder.htm
    http://tinyurl.com/nybyw

    Jobst Brandt
     
  3. > I can't recall ever seeing a Simplex with a slant parallelogram, but
    > maybe I'm wrong (?).


    No, I believe you're correct. About the fanciest french derailleur ever made
    was the Huret EcoDuopar which, if it weren't for the fact they were so
    loose, wasn't a bad choice for really wide gear ranges back-in-the-day. Well
    OK, there really wasn't an alternative...

    One came into the shop the other day and one of my mechanics couldn't figure
    out how to remove it. He'd never seen a derailleur with that sort of
    retension mechanism on the hanger bolt.

    --Mike Jacoubowsky
    Chain Reaction Bicycles
    www.ChainReaction.com
    Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

    "Ozark Bicycle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > Dave Larrington wrote:
    >> In article <[email protected]>,
    >> Ozark Bicycle ([email protected]) wrote:
    >> >
    >> > Mark Janeba wrote:
    >> > > Ozark Bicycle wrote:
    >> > > > geos wrote:
    >> > > >
    >> > > >>Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
    >> > > >>
    >> > > >>>>is anybody familiar with this old dura ace rear derailleur below?
    >> > > >>>>
    >> > > >>>>http://tinyurl.com/jjvq5
    >> > > >>>
    >> > > >>>Wow... hardly looks like a Shimano derailleur at all, with those
    >> > > >>>sharp
    >> > > >>>angles and such. Reminds me of a Campy 980 (but it isn't). I don't
    >> > > >>>recall
    >> > > >>>Shimano using that color scheme, so it could be that someone
    >> > > >>>"created" that
    >> > > >>>DuraAce derailleur, but then I just turned 50 so I may have
    >> > > >>>forgotten.
    >> > > >>>
    >> > > >>>I'll bet Andy Muzi knows...
    >> > > >>
    >> > > >>thanks Mike. "home made dura ace" hypothesis is something I also
    >> > > >>consider :)
    >> > > >>
    >> > > >
    >> > > >
    >> > > > Given the location of the limit screws, I don't think it's a
    >> > > > Shimano
    >> > > > anything. Suntour??
    >> > >
    >> > > The adjuster barrel reminds me of SunTour, but those limit screws and
    >> > > the *angular* tab below them for the anchor bolt just don't look like
    >> > > SunTour.
    >> > >
    >> >
    >> > Who else made slant parallelogram RDs with the limit screws in that
    >> > location? I can't think of any. (Perhaps the limit screws themselves
    >> > are not original?)

    >>
    >> Could it perchance be a Simplex?
    >>
    >> --

    >
    > I can't recall ever seeing a Simplex with a slant parallelogram, but
    > maybe I'm wrong (?).
    >
     
  4. On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 19:55:56 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > About the fanciest french derailleur ever made
    >was the Huret EcoDuopar which, if it weren't for the fact they were so
    >loose, wasn't a bad choice for really wide gear ranges back-in-the-day. Well
    >OK, there really wasn't an alternative...


    >
    >One came into the shop the other day and one of my mechanics couldn't figure
    >out how to remove it. He'd never seen a derailleur with that sort of
    >retension mechanism on the hanger bolt.


    Me and another guy built about 22 bikes with Duopars (they were Trek
    touring bikes I think) and didn't even notice that bolt. It was for a
    long charity ride, and about a week later a bunch of people's
    derailledeurs started working worse and worse. Took us a few days to
    figure it out.

    JT

    ****************************
    Remove "remove" to reply
    Visit http://www.jt10000.com
    ****************************
     
  5. In article <[email protected]>,
    Ozark Bicycle ([email protected]) wrote:
    >
    > Dave Larrington wrote:
    > > In article <[email protected]>,
    > > Ozark Bicycle ([email protected]) wrote:
    > > >
    > > > Mark Janeba wrote:
    > > > > Ozark Bicycle wrote:
    > > > > > geos wrote:
    > > > > >
    > > > > >>Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
    > > > > >>
    > > > > >>>>is anybody familiar with this old dura ace rear derailleur below?
    > > > > >>>>
    > > > > >>>>http://tinyurl.com/jjvq5
    > > > > >>>
    > > > > >>>Wow... hardly looks like a Shimano derailleur at all, with those sharp
    > > > > >>>angles and such. Reminds me of a Campy 980 (but it isn't). I don't recall
    > > > > >>>Shimano using that color scheme, so it could be that someone "created" that
    > > > > >>>DuraAce derailleur, but then I just turned 50 so I may have forgotten.
    > > > > >>>
    > > > > >>>I'll bet Andy Muzi knows...
    > > > > >>
    > > > > >>thanks Mike. "home made dura ace" hypothesis is something I also
    > > > > >>consider :)
    > > > > >>
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Given the location of the limit screws, I don't think it's a Shimano
    > > > > > anything. Suntour??
    > > > >
    > > > > The adjuster barrel reminds me of SunTour, but those limit screws and
    > > > > the *angular* tab below them for the anchor bolt just don't look like
    > > > > SunTour.
    > > > >
    > > >
    > > > Who else made slant parallelogram RDs with the limit screws in that
    > > > location? I can't think of any. (Perhaps the limit screws themselves
    > > > are not original?)

    > >
    > > Could it perchance be a Simplex?
    > >
    > > --

    >
    > I can't recall ever seeing a Simplex with a slant parallelogram, but
    > maybe I'm wrong (?).


    I have a vague recollection of a mid-eighties Simplex which looked
    pretty similar to the photo, save that it was a long cage model, but
    from a range of more than twenty years I couldn't tell you any more.
    Except that it was made from cheese and broke in two about two weeks
    after being fitted.

    We blagged a pair of Ti Duopars for our Round-Britain HPV record in
    1983. Both twisted themselves into spaghetti in under a day and were
    replaced with Sun Tour BL GTs which crept out of a box in the back of
    the van. One of said Sun Tour's is still in service on my father's road
    bike to this day.

    --
    Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
    Pepperoni and green peppers, mushrooms, olives, chives!
     
  6. Dave Larrington wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > Ozark Bicycle ([email protected]) wrote:
    > >
    > > Dave Larrington wrote:
    > > > In article <[email protected]>,
    > > > Ozark Bicycle ([email protected]) wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > > Mark Janeba wrote:
    > > > > > Ozark Bicycle wrote:
    > > > > > > geos wrote:
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >>Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >>>>is anybody familiar with this old dura ace rear derailleur below?
    > > > > > >>>>
    > > > > > >>>>http://tinyurl.com/jjvq5
    > > > > > >>>
    > > > > > >>>Wow... hardly looks like a Shimano derailleur at all, with those sharp
    > > > > > >>>angles and such. Reminds me of a Campy 980 (but it isn't). I don't recall
    > > > > > >>>Shimano using that color scheme, so it could be that someone "created" that
    > > > > > >>>DuraAce derailleur, but then I just turned 50 so I may have forgotten.
    > > > > > >>>
    > > > > > >>>I'll bet Andy Muzi knows...
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >>thanks Mike. "home made dura ace" hypothesis is something I also
    > > > > > >>consider :)
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Given the location of the limit screws, I don't think it's a Shimano
    > > > > > > anything. Suntour??
    > > > > >
    > > > > > The adjuster barrel reminds me of SunTour, but those limit screws and
    > > > > > the *angular* tab below them for the anchor bolt just don't look like
    > > > > > SunTour.
    > > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > Who else made slant parallelogram RDs with the limit screws in that
    > > > > location? I can't think of any. (Perhaps the limit screws themselves
    > > > > are not original?)
    > > >
    > > > Could it perchance be a Simplex?
    > > >
    > > > --

    > >
    > > I can't recall ever seeing a Simplex with a slant parallelogram, but
    > > maybe I'm wrong (?).

    >
    > I have a vague recollection of a mid-eighties Simplex which looked
    > pretty similar to the photo, save that it was a long cage model, but
    > from a range of more than twenty years I couldn't tell you any more.
    > Except that it was made from cheese and broke in two about two weeks
    > after being fitted.
    >



    Shimano "borrowed" the slant parallelogram from Suntour when the
    patent expired ca.1984. IIRC, only Suntour and Shimano RDs had slant
    parallelograms until Campy joined the party in the early '90s. That was
    the point when most/all RDs began shifting very well and looking like
    cousins.

    > We blagged a pair of Ti Duopars for our Round-Britain HPV record in
    > 1983. Both twisted themselves into spaghetti in under a day and were
    > replaced with Sun Tour BL GTs which crept out of a box in the back of
    > the van. One of said Sun Tour's is still in service on my father's road
    > bike to this day.
    >
    >
     
  7. 41

    41 Guest

    geos wrote:
    > hello,
    >
    > is anybody familiar with this old dura ace rear derailleur below?
    >
    > http://tinyurl.com/jjvq5
    >
    > I couldn't find any information on the internet, even at www.duraace.com
    > history section.
    >
    > I would appreciate your help with this, especially if you know what year
    > it was produced. but any information would be helpful.


    I think that's quite clearly an earlier SunRace, one of the cheapest
    derailleurs ever. Explains the fake Dura-Ace label.

    Simplex did make slant-parallelogram derailleurs, as did Huret. I
    thought the model was SLJ but
    I couldn't find it here:
    <http://members.aol.com/SatoruMas/brands/simplex.html>

    Before the SunTour patent expired, Shimano had a variant design they
    called servo-pantograph: Shimano Tourney, Crane, first two 600s. Not as
    good as the SunTour design but good enough..
     
  8. 41 wrote:
    > geos wrote:
    > > hello,
    > >
    > > is anybody familiar with this old dura ace rear derailleur below?
    > >
    > > http://tinyurl.com/jjvq5
    > >
    > > I couldn't find any information on the internet, even at www.duraace.com
    > > history section.
    > >
    > > I would appreciate your help with this, especially if you know what year
    > > it was produced. but any information would be helpful.

    >
    > I think that's quite clearly an earlier SunRace



    Hmm....I never would have thought to look there.



    , one of the cheapest
    > derailleurs ever. Explains the fake Dura-Ace label.
    >
    > Simplex did make slant-parallelogram derailleurs, as did Huret. I
    > thought the model was SLJ but
    > I couldn't find it here:
    > <http://members.aol.com/SatoruMas/brands/simplex.html>
    >
    > Before the SunTour patent expired, Shimano had a variant design they
    > called servo-pantograph: Shimano Tourney, Crane, first two 600s. Not as
    > good as the SunTour design but good enough..


    "Servo-Panta", IIRC, was the Shimano name for RDs with two spring
    loaded pvots, an idea they "borrowed" from Simplex.

    What they borrowed from Simplex (two spring loaded pivots), added to
    what they borrowed from Suntour (slant parallelogram), along with a
    minor innovation of their own (the "Centeron" jockey pulley) resulted
    in the first reliable indexed RD, the Dura-Ace RD-7400.
     
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