And we thought US courts were lax...

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by [email protected], Feb 3, 2006.

  1. Tags:


  2. > http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/9456.0.html
    >
    > Shitdawg. You need to kill some cyclists, go to Germany. The fine
    > works out to be 288 euro per dead rider. I wonder if they're even
    > cheaper by the dozen? Like 200 euro each.


    I read one person (one too many) had been killed, five injured.

    There is nothing in the article on the cause and whose (shared) fault,
    so do not be to pre-judging perhaps?


    --
    Posted by news://news.nb.nu
     
  3. On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 20:48:31 +0100, "Martin Borsje"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >> http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/9456.0.html
    >>
    >> Shitdawg. You need to kill some cyclists, go to Germany. The fine
    >> works out to be 288 euro per dead rider. I wonder if they're even
    >> cheaper by the dozen? Like 200 euro each.

    >
    >I read one person (one too many) had been killed, five injured.
    >
    >There is nothing in the article on the cause and whose (shared) fault,
    >so do not be to pre-judging perhaps?


    Shared fault? Hitting one cyclist in poor visibility may be
    understandable and there could be shared blame - or completely the
    fault of the cyclist. The driver hit six riders on a training ride
    after the driver crossed the dividing line into the oncoming (wrong)
    lane.

    The light fine was probably based on her age, inexperience as a
    driver, including that she was driving with a learner's permit, and no
    motive or reported impairment - simply an inexperienced driver losing
    control of a car. But there is little doubt she was at fault.

    Curtis L. Russell
    Odenton, MD (USA)
    Just someone on two wheels...
     
  4. My mistake. It was one death and 5 injured...Either way, it still
    seems too light.

    CH
     
  5. [email protected] wrote:
    > http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/9456.0.html
    >
    > Shitdawg. You need to kill some cyclists, go to Germany. The fine
    > works out to be 288 euro per dead rider. I wonder if they're even
    > cheaper by the dozen? Like 200 euro each.
    >



    I got news for you...in the US if you did that...so long as you weren't
    drunk or racing someone else, you'd probably get an even lower fine.

    You can't charge people with a crime or fine them based on the number of
    deaths or injuries. You fine them based on whether or not they
    committed a traffic violation, which in this case appears to be the
    equivalent of careless driving.

    Civil court is where the victims would be compensated for damages.

    Magilla
     
  6. Bill C

    Bill C Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    > http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/9456.0.html
    >
    > Shitdawg. You need to kill some cyclists, go to Germany. The fine
    > works out to be 288 euro per dead rider. I wonder if they're even
    > cheaper by the dozen? Like 200 euro each.


    Chris, not that it helps much but, from my experience with the German
    licensing system, the fact that her license was suspended will send her
    back to traffic school and force her to go through relicensing which
    will cost her another several thousand dollars and serious time in
    class to get it back. I'd guess she's probably looking at another 120
    hours of class time along with paying for it.
    Bill C
     
  7. MagillaGorilla wrote:

    > I got news for you...in the US if you did that...so long as you weren't
    > drunk or racing someone else, you'd probably get an even lower fine.
    >
    > You can't charge people with a crime or fine them based on the number of
    > deaths or injuries. You fine them based on whether or not they
    > committed a traffic violation, which in this case appears to be the
    > equivalent of careless driving.
    >
    > Civil court is where the victims would be compensated for damages.


    Garbage. If you drive irresponsibly and wrap your car around a
    tree, you get a ticket. If you drive irresponsibly, wrap your car
    around a tree, and kill your passenger (or a pedestrian), you may
    be charged with a crime, up to vehicular manslaughter, depending
    on how bad the prosecutor wants to get you.

    The U.S. legal system charges people with crimes based on the
    number of deaths or injuries all the time. Firing a gun, negligence
    on construction sites, even driving a car - if nobody gets hurt you
    get off with a fine, if somebody does, the prosecutor decides whether
    to try you or not. You are correct that people who kill bicyclists
    due to inattention often get off, depending on the character of the
    driver and the social status of the cyclist (kids and cops =
    prosecution; homeless guys, messengers, immigrants and bike
    racers = slap on the wrist). This is because driving a car is an
    "everyday" activity in a sense that aimless gunfire and construction
    negligence are not, and juries are sympathetic to it; and because
    bicyclists are second class citizens.
     
  8. Steve G.

    Steve G. Guest

    The only times that I remember "losing control" of my car was when I was
    younger than 18 and driving way too recklessly (outside of the law) for the
    conditions. How else would "lose control" and cross lanes in reasonable
    weather ? Ice maybe, but then again that is the drivers responsibilty to
    understand the conditions.

    The driver was obviously driving recklessely.
    "Curtis L. Russell" <[email protected]bicycling.org> wrote in message
    news:p[email protected]
    > On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 20:48:31 +0100, "Martin Borsje"
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >> http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/9456.0.html
    > >>
    > >> Shitdawg. You need to kill some cyclists, go to Germany. The fine
    > >> works out to be 288 euro per dead rider. I wonder if they're even
    > >> cheaper by the dozen? Like 200 euro each.

    > >
    > >I read one person (one too many) had been killed, five injured.
    > >
    > >There is nothing in the article on the cause and whose (shared) fault,
    > >so do not be to pre-judging perhaps?

    >
    > Shared fault? Hitting one cyclist in poor visibility may be
    > understandable and there could be shared blame - or completely the
    > fault of the cyclist. The driver hit six riders on a training ride
    > after the driver crossed the dividing line into the oncoming (wrong)
    > lane.
    >
    > The light fine was probably based on her age, inexperience as a
    > driver, including that she was driving with a learner's permit, and no
    > motive or reported impairment - simply an inexperienced driver losing
    > control of a car. But there is little doubt she was at fault.
    >
    > Curtis L. Russell
    > Odenton, MD (USA)
    > Just someone on two wheels...
     
  9. On Fri, 3 Feb 2006 21:20:49 -0500, "Steve G." <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >The only times that I remember "losing control" of my car was when I was
    >younger than 18 and driving way too recklessly (outside of the law) for the
    >conditions. How else would "lose control" and cross lanes in reasonable
    >weather ? Ice maybe, but then again that is the drivers responsibilty to
    >understand the conditions.


    She was 18 and on a learner's permit.You c an do stupid stuff while
    learning, especially when you haven't picked up any ability to
    anticipate what happens next, even under relatively normal
    circumstances.

    What I don't know and I am evidently under some degree of
    misunderstanding, is that I was under the impression that German
    driver's training was more rigorous than the U.S. 'pay $ 150 and pile
    into the car with the frazzled, scared looking guy that has the
    instructor's badge' type training. I wouldn't have expected that she
    would be driving around as an unguided missle under their laws.

    Hell, I thought it would be more like learning from my dad - he was
    the one of the senior military police non-coms at Fort Lee at the time
    and learning from him gave me a semi-permanent flinch while driving.
    And then HIS car failed inspection when I went in for my first test...

    Curtis L. Russell
    Odenton, MD (USA)
    Just someone on two wheels...
     
  10. Bill C

    Bill C Guest

    Curtis L. Russell wrote:
    > On Fri, 3 Feb 2006 21:20:49 -0500, "Steve G." <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >The only times that I remember "losing control" of my car was when I was
    > >younger than 18 and driving way too recklessly (outside of the law) for the
    > >conditions. How else would "lose control" and cross lanes in reasonable
    > >weather ? Ice maybe, but then again that is the drivers responsibilty to
    > >understand the conditions.

    >
    > She was 18 and on a learner's permit.You c an do stupid stuff while
    > learning, especially when you haven't picked up any ability to
    > anticipate what happens next, even under relatively normal
    > circumstances.
    >
    > What I don't know and I am evidently under some degree of
    > misunderstanding, is that I was under the impression that German
    > driver's training was more rigorous than the U.S. 'pay $ 150 and pile
    > into the car with the frazzled, scared looking guy that has the
    > instructor's badge' type training. I wouldn't have expected that she
    > would be driving around as an unguided missle under their laws.
    >
    > Hell, I thought it would be more like learning from my dad - he was
    > the one of the senior military police non-coms at Fort Lee at the time
    > and learning from him gave me a semi-permanent flinch while driving.
    > And then HIS car failed inspection when I went in for my first test...
    >
    > Curtis L. Russell
    > Odenton, MD (USA)
    > Just someone on two wheels...


    Curtis it is like that. It's a very long, intensive process, with tons
    of both class time and road time with an instructor. I'm more familiar
    with the motorcycle side which in a German clas was going for around
    $2000 and around 100 hours. Then for anyone under 18 that got them a
    license that limited the size of the bike by the number of CCs and was
    a staged progression as they gained experience. I want to say it was
    250cc for the first year, then 500cc for two before going unlimited and
    any major screw-up would get you back to the beginning of the class
    again.
    My understanding of the auto side was that it was even more expensive,
    lengthy, and intensive.
    I saw some stupid shit occasionally, and some real speed like a
    Porsche blowing by us like we were in reverse when we were cruising at
    about 140Km/hr. But I was never really worried the way I was, and
    frequently am here and , say, in Italy. They are NUTS!
    Bill C
     
  11. Howard Kveck

    Howard Kveck Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    "Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Curtis L. Russell wrote:


    > > Hell, I thought it would be more like learning from my dad - he was
    > > the one of the senior military police non-coms at Fort Lee at the time
    > > and learning from him gave me a semi-permanent flinch while driving.
    > > And then HIS car failed inspection when I went in for my first test...


    I don't imagine you laughed at that, at least not out loud.

    > I saw some stupid shit occasionally, and some real speed like a
    > Porsche blowing by us like we were in reverse when we were cruising at
    > about 140Km/hr. But I was never really worried the way I was, and
    > frequently am here and , say, in Italy. They are NUTS!


    Wehn I was leaving Florence last summer, the shuttle I was in did this lane
    splitting maneuver between a city bus and a Fiat that wasn't going fast enoough.
    Thing is, when this happened, I was in a full size bus.

    --
    tanx,
    Howard

    The poodle bites, the poodle chews it.

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
     
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