Andy makes bike.com

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Tritonrider, Mar 6, 2003.

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  1. Tritonrider

    Tritonrider Guest

    In Kraig Willett's article on power meters Andy is the expert opinion. Why should you train with
    power? Dr. Andrew Coggan, a well-respected exercise physiologist, and long-time cycling power meter
    user says, “The primary advantage to measuring power is that, compared to HR, it provides both a
    more direct and more immediate answer to the question 'how hard am I working?' That is, a rider’s
    power output directly determines not only how fast they can pedal down the road (or up a hill), but
    also their cardiovascular, metabolic, and perceptual responses (e.g., HR, lactate, perceived
    exertion) to doing so. Power is also measured in real time, without the lag inherent in HR. As a
    result, measuring power makes it possible to better regulate, or at the very least assess, the
    overall intensity of training.

    Another piece of evidence for Andy leading RBRs Top Ten club Bill C.
     
    Tags:


  2. Ken Papai

    Ken Papai Guest

    So how does a cheap, lousy cat. III, without that much extra time on their hands measure their power
    without going through a lot of trouble?

    "TritonRider" <[email protected]> wrote...
    > In Kraig Willett's article on power meters Andy is the expert opinion. Why should you train with
    > power? Dr. Andrew Coggan, a well-respected
    exercise
    > physiologist, and long-time cycling power meter user says, "The primary advantage to measuring
    > power is that, compared to HR, it provides both a
    more
    > direct and more immediate answer to the question 'how hard am I working?'
    That
    > is, a rider's power output directly determines not only how fast they can pedal down the road (or
    > up a hill), but also their cardiovascular,
    metabolic,
    > and perceptual responses (e.g., HR, lactate, perceived exertion) to doing
    so.
    > Power is also measured in real time, without the lag inherent in HR. As a result, measuring power
    > makes it possible to better regulate, or at the
    very
    > least assess, the overall intensity of training. Another piece of evidence for Andy leading RBRs
    > Top Ten club Bill C.
     
  3. Tritonrider

    Tritonrider Guest

    >From: "Ken Papai" [email protected]

    >So how does a cheap, lousy cat. III, without that much extra time on their hands measure their
    >power without going through a lot of trouble?

    The way they always have. Cat 3s are not elite racers. The young ones may be on the way, but they
    are not there yet. Let's face it, the ones who are going to go Cat1/Pro have displayed it earlier
    and have been guided to a whole new level of testing, regimentation, and training. My take was that
    this was targeted to Cat1/Pro riders. Andy would have to fill us in on this. We are getting into the
    Masters/Wannabe/Neverwas debate now. It is possible to upgrade through sustained effort and picking
    your races. The people who are going to the top are indicated, and supported fairly young. They are
    the ones who get the support and equipment Andy is talking about. Your average 30 year old cat 3 is
    SOL. Bill C
     
  4. Ken Papai <[email protected]> wrote:

    > So how does a cheap, lousy cat. III, without that much extra time on their hands measure their
    > power without going through a lot of trouble?

    Find a steady climb of known height and distance, ride up it, note your time, find the speed, plug
    the numbers into www.analyticcycling.com, Power & Speed > Power given Speed. Try to do it at several
    different times, and when there is not a strong wind. Do both a 5 min climb and a 30 min climb,
    you'll get different numbers.

    Then use Photoshop to draw up a bunch of cool looking graphs and tell all your riding partners about
    your watts per kg. Or just copy it off James Mattis's webpage.
     
  5. I don't know about where you live, but around here there are many hills in forested (aka windless)
    areas. Just construct a route with the same hills and use your speedometer and/or timer and do
    intervals from the same start/stop positions. If you really want to get fancy and you can come up
    with accurate grade information, then you could go to analyticcycling and figure out the actual
    numbers for your power output (only neccessary for your ego).

    "Ken Papai" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > So how does a cheap, lousy cat. III, without that much extra time on their hands measure their
    > power without going through a lot of trouble?
     
  6. Sam

    Sam Guest

    "TritonRider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > In Kraig Willett's article on power meters Andy is the expert opinion. Why should you train with
    > power? Dr. Andrew Coggan, a well-respected
    exercise
    > physiologist, and long-time cycling power meter user says, "The primary advantage to measuring
    > power is that, compared to HR, it provides both a
    more
    > direct and more immediate answer to the question 'how hard am I working?'
    That
    > is, a rider's power output directly determines not only how fast they can pedal down the road (or
    > up a hill), but also their cardiovascular,
    metabolic,
    > and perceptual responses (e.g., HR, lactate, perceived exertion) to doing
    so.
    > Power is also measured in real time, without the lag inherent in HR. As a result, measuring power
    > makes it possible to better regulate, or at the
    very
    > least assess, the overall intensity of training.
    >
    > Another piece of evidence for Andy leading RBRs Top Ten club Bill C.

    I almost loost it when I saw his name there.....
     
  7. Deeznuts

    Deeznuts Guest

    "Sam" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "TritonRider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > In Kraig Willett's article on power meters Andy is the expert opinion. Why should you train with
    > > power? Dr. Andrew Coggan, a well-respected
    > exercise
    > > physiologist, and long-time cycling power meter user says, "The primary advantage to measuring
    > > power is that, compared to HR, it provides both a
    > more
    > > direct and more immediate answer to the question 'how hard am I working?'
    > That
    > > is, a rider's power output directly determines not only how fast they can pedal down the road
    > > (or up a hill), but also their cardiovascular,
    > metabolic,
    > > and perceptual responses (e.g., HR, lactate, perceived exertion) to doing
    > so.
    > > Power is also measured in real time, without the lag inherent in HR. As a result, measuring
    > > power makes it possible to better regulate, or at the
    > very
    > > least assess, the overall intensity of training.
    > >
    > > Another piece of evidence for Andy leading RBRs Top Ten club Bill C.
    >
    > I almost loost it when I saw his name there.....

    I know what you're saying man. I almost loost it too.

    Deez
     
  8. Danny Callen

    Danny Callen Guest

    "TritonRider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > >From: "Ken Papai" [email protected]
    >
    > >So how does a cheap, lousy cat. III, without that much extra time on their hands measure their
    > >power without going through a lot of trouble?
    >
    > The way they always have. Cat 3s are not elite racers. The young ones may
    be on
    > the way, but they are not there yet. Let's face it, the ones who are going to go Cat1/Pro have
    > displayed it
    earlier
    > and have been guided to a whole new level of testing, regimentation, and training. My take was
    > that this was targeted to Cat1/Pro riders. Andy would have
    to
    > fill us in on this. We are getting into the Masters/Wannabe/Neverwas debate now. It is
    possible to
    > upgrade through sustained effort and picking your races. The people who
    are
    > going to the top are indicated, and supported fairly young. They are the
    ones
    > who get the support and equipment Andy is talking about. Your average 30 year old cat 3 is
    > SOL. Bill C

    Did you do too many shots of tequilla today Bill? I can measure power just fine for less than
    $500. I bought a Polar S710 for $200 from ubid.com and then the power Option for $250 from ebay.
    You just need to look for deals. Power is not for the elite. It's as simple as measuring HR and
    as Andy says is not susceptible to "conditions". If the average 30 year old Cat 3 can not afford
    that maybe they're spending too much time on their bike trying to be a wannabe and not enough
    time on a career??

    Danny Callen
     
  9. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, TritonRider <[email protected]> wrote:

    > >From: "Danny Callen" [email protected]
    >
    > >Power is not for the elite. It's as simple as measuring HR and as Andy says is not susceptible to
    > >"conditions". If the average 30 year old Cat 3 can not afford that maybe they're spending too
    > >much time on their bike trying to be a wannabe and not enough time on a career??
    > >
    > >Danny Callen
    > >
    > Power data is a valuable training aid, no question about it. If you want to spend the money on
    > it, it's a good thing. My comment was based on that a full regimen of testing and monitoring ie:
    > Lactate threshold, VO2 max etc... are not needed for anyone but young up and coming riders.

    You don't think it's worth $75 to have Max Testa's lab test and interpret your LT and
    VO2max results?

    -WG
     
  10. "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:080320032000382219%[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>, TritonRider <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > >From: "Danny Callen" [email protected]
    > >
    > > >Power is not for the elite. It's as simple as measuring HR and as Andy
    says
    > > >is not susceptible to "conditions". If the average 30 year old Cat 3
    can not
    > > >afford that maybe they're spending too much time on their bike trying
    to be
    > > >a wannabe and not enough time on a career??
    > > >
    > > >Danny Callen
    > > >
    > > Power data is a valuable training aid, no question about it. If you
    want to
    > > spend the money on it, it's a good thing. My comment was based on that a full regimen of testing
    > > and monitoring
    ie:
    > > Lactate threshold, VO2 max etc... are not needed for anyone but young up
    and
    > > coming riders.
    >
    > You don't think it's worth $75 to have Max Testa's lab test and interpret your LT and VO2max
    > results?

    Not if you're 20lbs. overweight.
     
  11. Sparhawk

    Sparhawk Guest

    On Sat, 8 Mar 2003 19:25:10 -0500, "Danny Callen" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >
    >"TritonRider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]...
    >> >From: "Ken Papai" [email protected]
    >>
    >> >So how does a cheap, lousy cat. III, without that much extra time on their hands measure their
    >> >power without going through a lot of trouble?
    >>
    >> The way they always have. Cat 3s are not elite racers. The young ones may
    >be on
    >> the way, but they are not there yet. Let's face it, the ones who are going to go Cat1/Pro have
    >> displayed it
    >earlier
    >> and have been guided to a whole new level of testing, regimentation, and training. My take was
    >> that this was targeted to Cat1/Pro riders. Andy would have
    >to
    >> fill us in on this. We are getting into the Masters/Wannabe/Neverwas debate now. It is
    >possible to
    >> upgrade through sustained effort and picking your races. The people who
    >are
    >> going to the top are indicated, and supported fairly young. They are the
    >ones
    >> who get the support and equipment Andy is talking about. Your average 30 year old cat 3 is
    >> SOL. Bill C
    >
    >Did you do too many shots of tequilla today Bill? I can measure power just fine for less than
    >$500. I bought a Polar S710 for $200 from ubid.com and then the power Option for $250 from ebay.
    >You just need to look for deals. Power is not for the elite. It's as simple as measuring HR and
    >as Andy says is not susceptible to "conditions". If the average 30 year old Cat 3 can not afford
    >that maybe they're spending too much time on their bike trying to be a wannabe and not enough
    >time on a career??
    >
    >Danny Callen

    Measuring power is great but what do you compare it to, where is the data? The data bank?

    There just doesn't seem to be anyway to make an assessment based on power data because there
    isn't any.

    How does a Cat 1/2/3 racer know where he is in comparison to others in the same category?

    Or is power data so highly personal that it is worthless?

    Sparhawk
     
  12. Danny Callen

    Danny Callen Guest

    "Sparhawk" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > On Sat, 8 Mar 2003 19:25:10 -0500, "Danny Callen" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >"TritonRider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >news:[email protected]...
    > >> >From: "Ken Papai" [email protected]
    > >>
    > >> >So how does a cheap, lousy cat. III, without that much extra time on their hands measure their
    > >> >power without going through a lot of trouble?
    > >>
    > >> The way they always have. Cat 3s are not elite racers. The young ones
    may
    > >be on
    > >> the way, but they are not there yet. Let's face it, the ones who are going to go Cat1/Pro have
    > >> displayed it
    > >earlier
    > >> and have been guided to a whole new level of testing, regimentation,
    and
    > >> training. My take was that this was targeted to Cat1/Pro riders. Andy would
    have
    > >to
    > >> fill us in on this. We are getting into the Masters/Wannabe/Neverwas debate now. It is
    > >possible to
    > >> upgrade through sustained effort and picking your races. The people who
    > >are
    > >> going to the top are indicated, and supported fairly young. They are
    the
    > >ones
    > >> who get the support and equipment Andy is talking about. Your average 30 year old cat 3 is SOL.
    > >> Bill C
    > >
    > >Did you do too many shots of tequilla today Bill? I can measure power
    just
    > >fine for less than $500. I bought a Polar S710 for $200 from ubid.com and then the power Option
    > >for $250 from ebay. You just need to look for
    deals.
    > >Power is not for the elite. It's as simple as measuring HR and as Andy
    says
    > >is not susceptible to "conditions". If the average 30 year old Cat 3 can
    not
    > >afford that maybe they're spending too much time on their bike trying to
    be
    > >a wannabe and not enough time on a career??
    > >
    > >Danny Callen
    >
    > Measuring power is great but what do you compare it to, where is the data? The data bank?
    >
    > There just doesn't seem to be anyway to make an assessment based on power data because there
    > isn't any.
    >
    > How does a Cat 1/2/3 racer know where he is in comparison to others in the same category?
    >
    > Or is power data so highly personal that it is worthless?
    >
    > Sparhawk
    >

    You can do a Conconi test or step test on a trainer; comparisons are fairly well documented in Joe
    Friel's "Training Bible". It is more important that you use the power numbers to train your own
    strengths and weaknesses and track your progress..

    Danny Callen
     
  13. Danny Callen

    Danny Callen Guest

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:%[email protected]...
    >
    > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:080320032000382219%[email protected]...
    > > In article <[email protected]>, TritonRider <[email protected]>
    > > wrote:
    > >
    > > > >From: "Danny Callen" [email protected]
    > > >
    > > > >Power is not for the elite. It's as simple as measuring HR and as
    Andy
    > says
    > > > >is not susceptible to "conditions". If the average 30 year old Cat 3
    > can not
    > > > >afford that maybe they're spending too much time on their bike trying
    > to be
    > > > >a wannabe and not enough time on a career??
    > > > >
    > > > >Danny Callen
    > > > >
    > > > Power data is a valuable training aid, no question about it. If you
    > want to
    > > > spend the money on it, it's a good thing. My comment was based on that a full regimen of
    > > > testing and monitoring
    > ie:
    > > > Lactate threshold, VO2 max etc... are not needed for anyone but young
    up
    > and
    > > > coming riders.
    > >
    > > You don't think it's worth $75 to have Max Testa's lab test and interpret your LT and VO2max
    > > results?
    >
    >
    >
    > Not if you're 20lbs. overweight.
    >
    >

    For me it's not worth it. I use Conconi tests and "experience" to track where my LT is, etc. As
    Henry states, my biggest limiter is not max power or power at LT but the bottom side of the equation
    (W/kg). Of course, I'm not training for the Tour..

    Danny Callen
     
  14. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Danny Callen <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:%[email protected]...
    > >
    > > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:080320032000382219%[email protected]...
    > > > In article <[email protected]>, TritonRider <[email protected]>
    > > > wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > >From: "Danny Callen" [email protected]

    > > > > Lactate threshold, VO2 max etc... are not needed for anyone but young
    > up
    > > and
    > > > > coming riders.
    > > >
    > > > You don't think it's worth $75 to have Max Testa's lab test and interpret your LT and VO2max
    > > > results?
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Not if you're 20lbs. overweight.
    > >
    > >
    >
    > For me it's not worth it. I use Conconi tests and "experience" to track where my LT is, etc. As
    > Henry states, my biggest limiter is not max power or power at LT but the bottom side of the
    > equation (W/kg). Of course, I'm not training for the Tour..

    Which two of those three will matter most at Somerville?

    -WG
     
  15. Danny Callen

    Danny Callen Guest

    "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:090320031434548076%[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>, Danny Callen <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:%[email protected]...
    > > >
    > > > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:080320032000382219%[email protected]...
    > > > > In article <[email protected]>,
    TritonRider
    > > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > > > >From: "Danny Callen" [email protected]
    >
    > > > > > Lactate threshold, VO2 max etc... are not needed for anyone but
    young
    > > up
    > > > and
    > > > > > coming riders.
    > > > >
    > > > > You don't think it's worth $75 to have Max Testa's lab test and interpret your LT and VO2max
    > > > > results?
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Not if you're 20lbs. overweight.
    > > >
    > > >
    > >
    > > For me it's not worth it. I use Conconi tests and "experience" to track where my LT is, etc. As
    > > Henry states, my biggest limiter is not max
    power or
    > > power at LT but the bottom side of the equation (W/kg). Of course, I'm
    not
    > > training for the Tour..
    >
    > Which two of those three will matter most at Somerville?
    >
    > -WG

    None since I likely won't be there. It's been years since I did Somerville...fun race though...

    Danny Callen
     
  16. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Danny Callen <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:090320031434548076%[email protected]...
    > > In article <[email protected]>, Danny Callen <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > > > "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > news:%[email protected]...
    > > > >
    > > > > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:080320032000382219%[email protected]...
    > > > > > In article <[email protected]>,
    > TritonRider
    > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > > > >
    > > > > > > >From: "Danny Callen" [email protected]
    > >
    > > > > > > Lactate threshold, VO2 max etc... are not needed for anyone but
    > young
    > > > up
    > > > > and
    > > > > > > coming riders.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > You don't think it's worth $75 to have Max Testa's lab test and interpret your LT and
    > > > > > VO2max results?
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > Not if you're 20lbs. overweight.
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > >
    > > > For me it's not worth it. I use Conconi tests and "experience" to track where my LT is, etc.
    > > > As Henry states, my biggest limiter is not max
    > power or
    > > > power at LT but the bottom side of the equation (W/kg). Of course, I'm
    > not
    > > > training for the Tour..
    > >
    > > Which two of those three will matter most at Somerville?
    > >
    > > -WG
    >
    > None since I likely won't be there. It's been years since I did Somerville...fun race though...

    So pick any fast, flat criterium.

    -WG
     
  17. Sparhawk

    Sparhawk Guest

    On Sun, 9 Mar 2003 14:30:30 -0500, "Danny Callen" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >
    >"Sparhawk" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >> On Sat, 8 Mar 2003 19:25:10 -0500, "Danny Callen" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >> >
    >> >"TritonRider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> >news:[email protected]...
    >> >> >From: "Ken Papai" [email protected]
    >> >>
    >> >> >So how does a cheap, lousy cat. III, without that much extra time on their hands measure
    >> >> >their power without going through a lot of trouble?
    >> >>
    >> >> The way they always have. Cat 3s are not elite racers. The young ones
    >may
    >> >be on
    >> >> the way, but they are not there yet. Let's face it, the ones who are going to go Cat1/Pro have
    >> >> displayed it
    >> >earlier
    >> >> and have been guided to a whole new level of testing, regimentation,
    >and
    >> >> training. My take was that this was targeted to Cat1/Pro riders. Andy would
    >have
    >> >to
    >> >> fill us in on this. We are getting into the Masters/Wannabe/Neverwas debate now. It is
    >> >possible to
    >> >> upgrade through sustained effort and picking your races. The people who
    >> >are
    >> >> going to the top are indicated, and supported fairly young. They are
    >the
    >> >ones
    >> >> who get the support and equipment Andy is talking about. Your average 30 year old cat 3 is
    >> >> SOL. Bill C
    >> >
    >> >Did you do too many shots of tequilla today Bill? I can measure power
    >just
    >> >fine for less than $500. I bought a Polar S710 for $200 from ubid.com and then the power Option
    >> >for $250 from ebay. You just need to look for
    >deals.
    >> >Power is not for the elite. It's as simple as measuring HR and as Andy
    >says
    >> >is not susceptible to "conditions". If the average 30 year old Cat 3 can
    >not
    >> >afford that maybe they're spending too much time on their bike trying to
    >be
    >> >a wannabe and not enough time on a career??
    >> >
    >> >Danny Callen
    >>
    >> Measuring power is great but what do you compare it to, where is the data? The data bank?
    >>
    >> There just doesn't seem to be anyway to make an assessment based on power data because there
    >> isn't any.
    >>
    >> How does a Cat 1/2/3 racer know where he is in comparison to others in the same category?
    >>
    >> Or is power data so highly personal that it is worthless?
    >>
    >> Sparhawk
    >>
    >
    >You can do a Conconi test or step test on a trainer; comparisons are fairly well documented in Joe
    >Friel's "Training Bible". It is more important that you use the power numbers to train your own
    >strengths and weaknesses and track your progress..
    >

    I know my numbers and I record them daily from my Computrainer but I have no idea what your numbers
    are or what mine should be.

    Sure I can track my improvement in a number but the number has no meaning unless it is compared
    against a standard.

    Joe Friel's book does not establish any power standard.

    We may as well use speed, cadence or heart rate to track improvement as power in it's present form
    doesn't mean anything.

    The Polar power add-on is a $300 rip off as are all the other power gimmicks.

    Sparhawk

    >Danny Callen
     
  18. Le Gopheur

    Le Gopheur Guest

    On Mon, 10 Mar 2003 02:25:52 GMT, Sparhawk <[email protected]> wrote:

    >
    >I know my numbers and I record them daily from my Computrainer but I have no idea what your numbers
    >are or what mine should be.
    >
    >Sure I can track my improvement in a number but the number has no meaning unless it is compared
    >against a standard.
    >
    >Joe Friel's book does not establish any power standard.
    >
    >We may as well use speed, cadence or heart rate to track improvement as power in it's present form
    >doesn't mean anything.
    >
    >The Polar power add-on is a $300 rip off as are all the other power gimmicks.
    >
    >
    >Sparhawk

    Is this a joke thread? If so, I missed the first few posts and the humor at the beginning, so ignore
    my response here...

    ...But I have a really dumb question:

    If you wanted to compare yourself to others why not just go on a hilly, hard training ride with 10
    (or more) riders around your own ability?

    I should think you'd get instant and immediate feedback on how "powerful" you really are. The
    "standard" is pretty damn easy to figure out from a training ride, isn't it?

    If you make it to the end in the front group, you're above average. If in the last group, you stink.
    Do yourself a bit of "fuzzy extrapolation" to figure it out if you're somewhere in between. If the
    guy who kicked your ass on the ride finishes around 20th at the local road races, you still stink.

    Hell, even easier is to just go do a 10-25 mile ITT or a hard road race and compare your
    times/finish position to the winner and loser.

    How hard is this? seriously?

    Why the hell do you need a power meter or a published "standard" to determine something so
    simplistic as comparing yourself to other riders? A power meter is used to gauge your own progress,
    or lack there of, once you've recorded some base data. Good lord.

    Someone tell me if I'm missing the obvious here.

    gopher
     
  19. "Danny Callen" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    > None since I likely won't be there. It's been years since I did Somerville...fun

    Was his erstwhile girlfriend Kristy in the mix or was it just you and Sommerville?
     
  20. Kurgan Gringioni wrote:

    > Was his erstwhile girlfriend Kristy in the mix or was it just you and Sommerville?

    Did you mean "purported" or "former" girlfriend?
     
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