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Tritonrider

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In Kraig Willett's article on power meters Andy is the expert opinion. Why should you train with
power? Dr. Andrew Coggan, a well-respected exercise physiologist, and long-time cycling power meter
user says, “The primary advantage to measuring power is that, compared to HR, it provides both a
more direct and more immediate answer to the question 'how hard am I working?' That is, a rider’s
power output directly determines not only how fast they can pedal down the road (or up a hill), but
also their cardiovascular, metabolic, and perceptual responses (e.g., HR, lactate, perceived
exertion) to doing so. Power is also measured in real time, without the lag inherent in HR. As a
result, measuring power makes it possible to better regulate, or at the very least assess, the
overall intensity of training.

Another piece of evidence for Andy leading RBRs Top Ten club Bill C.
 
So how does a cheap, lousy cat. III, without that much extra time on their hands measure their power
without going through a lot of trouble?

"TritonRider" <[email protected]> wrote...
> In Kraig Willett's article on power meters Andy is the expert opinion. Why should you train with
> power? Dr. Andrew Coggan, a well-respected
exercise
> physiologist, and long-time cycling power meter user says, "The primary advantage to measuring
> power is that, compared to HR, it provides both a
more
> direct and more immediate answer to the question 'how hard am I working?'
That
> is, a rider's power output directly determines not only how fast they can pedal down the road (or
> up a hill), but also their cardiovascular,
metabolic,
> and perceptual responses (e.g., HR, lactate, perceived exertion) to doing
so.
> Power is also measured in real time, without the lag inherent in HR. As a result, measuring power
> makes it possible to better regulate, or at the
very
> least assess, the overall intensity of training. Another piece of evidence for Andy leading RBRs
> Top Ten club Bill C.
 
>From: "Ken Papai" [email protected]

>So how does a cheap, lousy cat. III, without that much extra time on their hands measure their
>power without going through a lot of trouble?

The way they always have. Cat 3s are not elite racers. The young ones may be on the way, but they
are not there yet. Let's face it, the ones who are going to go Cat1/Pro have displayed it earlier
and have been guided to a whole new level of testing, regimentation, and training. My take was that
this was targeted to Cat1/Pro riders. Andy would have to fill us in on this. We are getting into the
Masters/Wannabe/Neverwas debate now. It is possible to upgrade through sustained effort and picking
your races. The people who are going to the top are indicated, and supported fairly young. They are
the ones who get the support and equipment Andy is talking about. Your average 30 year old cat 3 is
SOL. Bill C
 
Ken Papai <[email protected]> wrote:

> So how does a cheap, lousy cat. III, without that much extra time on their hands measure their
> power without going through a lot of trouble?

Find a steady climb of known height and distance, ride up it, note your time, find the speed, plug
the numbers into www.analyticcycling.com, Power & Speed > Power given Speed. Try to do it at several
different times, and when there is not a strong wind. Do both a 5 min climb and a 30 min climb,
you'll get different numbers.

Then use Photoshop to draw up a bunch of cool looking graphs and tell all your riding partners about
your watts per kg. Or just copy it off James Mattis's webpage.
 
I don't know about where you live, but around here there are many hills in forested (aka windless)
areas. Just construct a route with the same hills and use your speedometer and/or timer and do
intervals from the same start/stop positions. If you really want to get fancy and you can come up
with accurate grade information, then you could go to analyticcycling and figure out the actual
numbers for your power output (only neccessary for your ego).

"Ken Papai" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> So how does a cheap, lousy cat. III, without that much extra time on their hands measure their
> power without going through a lot of trouble?
 
"TritonRider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In Kraig Willett's article on power meters Andy is the expert opinion. Why should you train with
> power? Dr. Andrew Coggan, a well-respected
exercise
> physiologist, and long-time cycling power meter user says, "The primary advantage to measuring
> power is that, compared to HR, it provides both a
more
> direct and more immediate answer to the question 'how hard am I working?'
That
> is, a rider's power output directly determines not only how fast they can pedal down the road (or
> up a hill), but also their cardiovascular,
metabolic,
> and perceptual responses (e.g., HR, lactate, perceived exertion) to doing
so.
> Power is also measured in real time, without the lag inherent in HR. As a result, measuring power
> makes it possible to better regulate, or at the
very
> least assess, the overall intensity of training.
>
> Another piece of evidence for Andy leading RBRs Top Ten club Bill C.

I almost loost it when I saw his name there.....
 
"Sam" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "TritonRider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In Kraig Willett's article on power meters Andy is the expert opinion. Why should you train with
> > power? Dr. Andrew Coggan, a well-respected
> exercise
> > physiologist, and long-time cycling power meter user says, "The primary advantage to measuring
> > power is that, compared to HR, it provides both a
> more
> > direct and more immediate answer to the question 'how hard am I working?'
> That
> > is, a rider's power output directly determines not only how fast they can pedal down the road
> > (or up a hill), but also their cardiovascular,
> metabolic,
> > and perceptual responses (e.g., HR, lactate, perceived exertion) to doing
> so.
> > Power is also measured in real time, without the lag inherent in HR. As a result, measuring
> > power makes it possible to better regulate, or at the
> very
> > least assess, the overall intensity of training.
> >
> > Another piece of evidence for Andy leading RBRs Top Ten club Bill C.
>
> I almost loost it when I saw his name there.....

I know what you're saying man. I almost loost it too.

Deez
 
"TritonRider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >From: "Ken Papai" [email protected]
>
> >So how does a cheap, lousy cat. III, without that much extra time on their hands measure their
> >power without going through a lot of trouble?
>
> The way they always have. Cat 3s are not elite racers. The young ones may
be on
> the way, but they are not there yet. Let's face it, the ones who are going to go Cat1/Pro have
> displayed it
earlier
> and have been guided to a whole new level of testing, regimentation, and training. My take was
> that this was targeted to Cat1/Pro riders. Andy would have
to
> fill us in on this. We are getting into the Masters/Wannabe/Neverwas debate now. It is
possible to
> upgrade through sustained effort and picking your races. The people who
are
> going to the top are indicated, and supported fairly young. They are the
ones
> who get the support and equipment Andy is talking about. Your average 30 year old cat 3 is
> SOL. Bill C

Did you do too many shots of tequilla today Bill? I can measure power just fine for less than
$500. I bought a Polar S710 for $200 from ubid.com and then the power Option for $250 from ebay.
You just need to look for deals. Power is not for the elite. It's as simple as measuring HR and
as Andy says is not susceptible to "conditions". If the average 30 year old Cat 3 can not afford
that maybe they're spending too much time on their bike trying to be a wannabe and not enough
time on a career??

Danny Callen
 
In article <[email protected]>, TritonRider <[email protected]> wrote:

> >From: "Danny Callen" [email protected]
>
> >Power is not for the elite. It's as simple as measuring HR and as Andy says is not susceptible to
> >"conditions". If the average 30 year old Cat 3 can not afford that maybe they're spending too
> >much time on their bike trying to be a wannabe and not enough time on a career??
> >
> >Danny Callen
> >
> Power data is a valuable training aid, no question about it. If you want to spend the money on
> it, it's a good thing. My comment was based on that a full regimen of testing and monitoring ie:
> Lactate threshold, VO2 max etc... are not needed for anyone but young up and coming riders.

You don't think it's worth $75 to have Max Testa's lab test and interpret your LT and
VO2max results?

-WG
 
"warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:080320032000382219%[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, TritonRider <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > >From: "Danny Callen" [email protected]
> >
> > >Power is not for the elite. It's as simple as measuring HR and as Andy
says
> > >is not susceptible to "conditions". If the average 30 year old Cat 3
can not
> > >afford that maybe they're spending too much time on their bike trying
to be
> > >a wannabe and not enough time on a career??
> > >
> > >Danny Callen
> > >
> > Power data is a valuable training aid, no question about it. If you
want to
> > spend the money on it, it's a good thing. My comment was based on that a full regimen of testing
> > and monitoring
ie:
> > Lactate threshold, VO2 max etc... are not needed for anyone but young up
and
> > coming riders.
>
> You don't think it's worth $75 to have Max Testa's lab test and interpret your LT and VO2max
> results?

Not if you're 20lbs. overweight.
 
On Sat, 8 Mar 2003 19:25:10 -0500, "Danny Callen" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"TritonRider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> >From: "Ken Papai" [email protected]
>>
>> >So how does a cheap, lousy cat. III, without that much extra time on their hands measure their
>> >power without going through a lot of trouble?
>>
>> The way they always have. Cat 3s are not elite racers. The young ones may
>be on
>> the way, but they are not there yet. Let's face it, the ones who are going to go Cat1/Pro have
>> displayed it
>earlier
>> and have been guided to a whole new level of testing, regimentation, and training. My take was
>> that this was targeted to Cat1/Pro riders. Andy would have
>to
>> fill us in on this. We are getting into the Masters/Wannabe/Neverwas debate now. It is
>possible to
>> upgrade through sustained effort and picking your races. The people who
>are
>> going to the top are indicated, and supported fairly young. They are the
>ones
>> who get the support and equipment Andy is talking about. Your average 30 year old cat 3 is
>> SOL. Bill C
>
>Did you do too many shots of tequilla today Bill? I can measure power just fine for less than
>$500. I bought a Polar S710 for $200 from ubid.com and then the power Option for $250 from ebay.
>You just need to look for deals. Power is not for the elite. It's as simple as measuring HR and
>as Andy says is not susceptible to "conditions". If the average 30 year old Cat 3 can not afford
>that maybe they're spending too much time on their bike trying to be a wannabe and not enough
>time on a career??
>
>Danny Callen

Measuring power is great but what do you compare it to, where is the data? The data bank?

There just doesn't seem to be anyway to make an assessment based on power data because there
isn't any.

How does a Cat 1/2/3 racer know where he is in comparison to others in the same category?

Or is power data so highly personal that it is worthless?

Sparhawk
 
"Sparhawk" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 8 Mar 2003 19:25:10 -0500, "Danny Callen" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >"TritonRider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> >From: "Ken Papai" [email protected]
> >>
> >> >So how does a cheap, lousy cat. III, without that much extra time on their hands measure their
> >> >power without going through a lot of trouble?
> >>
> >> The way they always have. Cat 3s are not elite racers. The young ones
may
> >be on
> >> the way, but they are not there yet. Let's face it, the ones who are going to go Cat1/Pro have
> >> displayed it
> >earlier
> >> and have been guided to a whole new level of testing, regimentation,
and
> >> training. My take was that this was targeted to Cat1/Pro riders. Andy would
have
> >to
> >> fill us in on this. We are getting into the Masters/Wannabe/Neverwas debate now. It is
> >possible to
> >> upgrade through sustained effort and picking your races. The people who
> >are
> >> going to the top are indicated, and supported fairly young. They are
the
> >ones
> >> who get the support and equipment Andy is talking about. Your average 30 year old cat 3 is SOL.
> >> Bill C
> >
> >Did you do too many shots of tequilla today Bill? I can measure power
just
> >fine for less than $500. I bought a Polar S710 for $200 from ubid.com and then the power Option
> >for $250 from ebay. You just need to look for
deals.
> >Power is not for the elite. It's as simple as measuring HR and as Andy
says
> >is not susceptible to "conditions". If the average 30 year old Cat 3 can
not
> >afford that maybe they're spending too much time on their bike trying to
be
> >a wannabe and not enough time on a career??
> >
> >Danny Callen
>
> Measuring power is great but what do you compare it to, where is the data? The data bank?
>
> There just doesn't seem to be anyway to make an assessment based on power data because there
> isn't any.
>
> How does a Cat 1/2/3 racer know where he is in comparison to others in the same category?
>
> Or is power data so highly personal that it is worthless?
>
> Sparhawk
>

You can do a Conconi test or step test on a trainer; comparisons are fairly well documented in Joe
Friel's "Training Bible". It is more important that you use the power numbers to train your own
strengths and weaknesses and track your progress..

Danny Callen
 
"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:%[email protected]...
>
> "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:080320032000382219%[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>, TritonRider <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > >From: "Danny Callen" [email protected]
> > >
> > > >Power is not for the elite. It's as simple as measuring HR and as
Andy
> says
> > > >is not susceptible to "conditions". If the average 30 year old Cat 3
> can not
> > > >afford that maybe they're spending too much time on their bike trying
> to be
> > > >a wannabe and not enough time on a career??
> > > >
> > > >Danny Callen
> > > >
> > > Power data is a valuable training aid, no question about it. If you
> want to
> > > spend the money on it, it's a good thing. My comment was based on that a full regimen of
> > > testing and monitoring
> ie:
> > > Lactate threshold, VO2 max etc... are not needed for anyone but young
up
> and
> > > coming riders.
> >
> > You don't think it's worth $75 to have Max Testa's lab test and interpret your LT and VO2max
> > results?
>
>
>
> Not if you're 20lbs. overweight.
>
>

For me it's not worth it. I use Conconi tests and "experience" to track where my LT is, etc. As
Henry states, my biggest limiter is not max power or power at LT but the bottom side of the equation
(W/kg). Of course, I'm not training for the Tour..

Danny Callen
 
In article <[email protected]>, Danny Callen <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:%[email protected]...
> >
> > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:080320032000382219%[email protected]...
> > > In article <[email protected]>, TritonRider <[email protected]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > >From: "Danny Callen" [email protected]

> > > > Lactate threshold, VO2 max etc... are not needed for anyone but young
> up
> > and
> > > > coming riders.
> > >
> > > You don't think it's worth $75 to have Max Testa's lab test and interpret your LT and VO2max
> > > results?
> >
> >
> >
> > Not if you're 20lbs. overweight.
> >
> >
>
> For me it's not worth it. I use Conconi tests and "experience" to track where my LT is, etc. As
> Henry states, my biggest limiter is not max power or power at LT but the bottom side of the
> equation (W/kg). Of course, I'm not training for the Tour..

Which two of those three will matter most at Somerville?

-WG
 
"warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:090320031434548076%[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, Danny Callen <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:%[email protected]...
> > >
> > > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:080320032000382219%[email protected]...
> > > > In article <[email protected]>,
TritonRider
> > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > >From: "Danny Callen" [email protected]
>
> > > > > Lactate threshold, VO2 max etc... are not needed for anyone but
young
> > up
> > > and
> > > > > coming riders.
> > > >
> > > > You don't think it's worth $75 to have Max Testa's lab test and interpret your LT and VO2max
> > > > results?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Not if you're 20lbs. overweight.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > For me it's not worth it. I use Conconi tests and "experience" to track where my LT is, etc. As
> > Henry states, my biggest limiter is not max
power or
> > power at LT but the bottom side of the equation (W/kg). Of course, I'm
not
> > training for the Tour..
>
> Which two of those three will matter most at Somerville?
>
> -WG

None since I likely won't be there. It's been years since I did Somerville...fun race though...

Danny Callen
 
In article <[email protected]>, Danny Callen <[email protected]> wrote:

> "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:090320031434548076%[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>, Danny Callen <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:%[email protected]...
> > > >
> > > > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:080320032000382219%[email protected]...
> > > > > In article <[email protected]>,
> TritonRider
> > > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > >From: "Danny Callen" [email protected]
> >
> > > > > > Lactate threshold, VO2 max etc... are not needed for anyone but
> young
> > > up
> > > > and
> > > > > > coming riders.
> > > > >
> > > > > You don't think it's worth $75 to have Max Testa's lab test and interpret your LT and
> > > > > VO2max results?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Not if you're 20lbs. overweight.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > For me it's not worth it. I use Conconi tests and "experience" to track where my LT is, etc.
> > > As Henry states, my biggest limiter is not max
> power or
> > > power at LT but the bottom side of the equation (W/kg). Of course, I'm
> not
> > > training for the Tour..
> >
> > Which two of those three will matter most at Somerville?
> >
> > -WG
>
> None since I likely won't be there. It's been years since I did Somerville...fun race though...

So pick any fast, flat criterium.

-WG
 
On Sun, 9 Mar 2003 14:30:30 -0500, "Danny Callen" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Sparhawk" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> On Sat, 8 Mar 2003 19:25:10 -0500, "Danny Callen" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"TritonRider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >news:[email protected]...
>> >> >From: "Ken Papai" [email protected]
>> >>
>> >> >So how does a cheap, lousy cat. III, without that much extra time on their hands measure
>> >> >their power without going through a lot of trouble?
>> >>
>> >> The way they always have. Cat 3s are not elite racers. The young ones
>may
>> >be on
>> >> the way, but they are not there yet. Let's face it, the ones who are going to go Cat1/Pro have
>> >> displayed it
>> >earlier
>> >> and have been guided to a whole new level of testing, regimentation,
>and
>> >> training. My take was that this was targeted to Cat1/Pro riders. Andy would
>have
>> >to
>> >> fill us in on this. We are getting into the Masters/Wannabe/Neverwas debate now. It is
>> >possible to
>> >> upgrade through sustained effort and picking your races. The people who
>> >are
>> >> going to the top are indicated, and supported fairly young. They are
>the
>> >ones
>> >> who get the support and equipment Andy is talking about. Your average 30 year old cat 3 is
>> >> SOL. Bill C
>> >
>> >Did you do too many shots of tequilla today Bill? I can measure power
>just
>> >fine for less than $500. I bought a Polar S710 for $200 from ubid.com and then the power Option
>> >for $250 from ebay. You just need to look for
>deals.
>> >Power is not for the elite. It's as simple as measuring HR and as Andy
>says
>> >is not susceptible to "conditions". If the average 30 year old Cat 3 can
>not
>> >afford that maybe they're spending too much time on their bike trying to
>be
>> >a wannabe and not enough time on a career??
>> >
>> >Danny Callen
>>
>> Measuring power is great but what do you compare it to, where is the data? The data bank?
>>
>> There just doesn't seem to be anyway to make an assessment based on power data because there
>> isn't any.
>>
>> How does a Cat 1/2/3 racer know where he is in comparison to others in the same category?
>>
>> Or is power data so highly personal that it is worthless?
>>
>> Sparhawk
>>
>
>You can do a Conconi test or step test on a trainer; comparisons are fairly well documented in Joe
>Friel's "Training Bible". It is more important that you use the power numbers to train your own
>strengths and weaknesses and track your progress..
>

I know my numbers and I record them daily from my Computrainer but I have no idea what your numbers
are or what mine should be.

Sure I can track my improvement in a number but the number has no meaning unless it is compared
against a standard.

Joe Friel's book does not establish any power standard.

We may as well use speed, cadence or heart rate to track improvement as power in it's present form
doesn't mean anything.

The Polar power add-on is a $300 rip off as are all the other power gimmicks.

Sparhawk

>Danny Callen
 
On Mon, 10 Mar 2003 02:25:52 GMT, Sparhawk <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>I know my numbers and I record them daily from my Computrainer but I have no idea what your numbers
>are or what mine should be.
>
>Sure I can track my improvement in a number but the number has no meaning unless it is compared
>against a standard.
>
>Joe Friel's book does not establish any power standard.
>
>We may as well use speed, cadence or heart rate to track improvement as power in it's present form
>doesn't mean anything.
>
>The Polar power add-on is a $300 rip off as are all the other power gimmicks.
>
>
>Sparhawk

Is this a joke thread? If so, I missed the first few posts and the humor at the beginning, so ignore
my response here...

...But I have a really dumb question:

If you wanted to compare yourself to others why not just go on a hilly, hard training ride with 10
(or more) riders around your own ability?

I should think you'd get instant and immediate feedback on how "powerful" you really are. The
"standard" is pretty damn easy to figure out from a training ride, isn't it?

If you make it to the end in the front group, you're above average. If in the last group, you stink.
Do yourself a bit of "fuzzy extrapolation" to figure it out if you're somewhere in between. If the
guy who kicked your ass on the ride finishes around 20th at the local road races, you still stink.

Hell, even easier is to just go do a 10-25 mile ITT or a hard road race and compare your
times/finish position to the winner and loser.

How hard is this? seriously?

Why the hell do you need a power meter or a published "standard" to determine something so
simplistic as comparing yourself to other riders? A power meter is used to gauge your own progress,
or lack there of, once you've recorded some base data. Good lord.

Someone tell me if I'm missing the obvious here.

gopher
 
Kurgan Gringioni wrote:

> Was his erstwhile girlfriend Kristy in the mix or was it just you and Sommerville?

Did you mean "purported" or "former" girlfriend?
 
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