Another 49 cyclists implicated in OP ! new 6000 page dossier released...

[Bro Deal]

Anyone think this trail might lead to Armstrong? Haven't heard jack from him during all this.

Maybe a better question would be, does anyone still believe he didn't dope? What fool will step forward and admit their inability to comprehend the obvious?

Paging musette, bobke, and wolfix. You are all wanted in the lobby...

 

[Jan the man]

Sometimes I wear it Helmut, but only at German races . Be patient, in a few days (maybe 2-3 weeks but I think not longer) the next bomb will explode. There are several former riders who will confirm and specify the Jef D'Hondt story about Telekom.

I guess you have sources suggesting that more will come of this story? To be honest I'm not surprised its inevitable. Cycling is currently witnessing a domino effect. It will get much worse before things get better in cycling.

 

[Serafino]

If you buy the Landis story that he was offered a vastly reduced sentence if he implicated Lance then its likely that people have been gunning for evidence for many years without much success. Any doubt that some rags (or L'Equipe, etc.) haven't offered big dollars for an "expose".

Interesting to see what happens to Riis is he's implicated as a doper. He hasn't addressed any of the allegations (or denied them).

I hope that the focus switches to the teams, management, doctors, etc., who advise, cajole, assist, and administer the doping. I'm sure its not alll the rider's ideas. The teams aren't innocent victims in this who know nothing.

 

[helmutRoole2]

Paging musette, bobke, and wolfix. You are all wanted in the lobby...

I wasn't going to say it, but well put.

 

[Bro Deal]

If you buy the Landis story that he was offered a vastly reduced sentence if he implicated Lance then its likely that people have been gunning for evidence for many years without much success. Any doubt that some rags (or L'Equipe, etc.) haven't offered big dollars for an "expose".

That is a very big if. UCI regulations do not allow for a vastly reduced sentence like Landis is claiming. They allow for at most a reduction to one half the regular sanction. The ProTour does not have any provision for reduction.

L'Equipre had good success showing Armstrong used EPO. It probably did not cost them anything. It just took good investigative reporting.

 

[Leafer]

L'Equipre had good success showing Armstrong used EPO. It probably did not cost them anything. It just took good investigative reporting.

Wait, we don't need musette et al - I'm pretty sure I can handle this one on my own:
l'Equipe is a rag. Ressiot is a hack. Armstrong has never tested positive. Andreu and Swart are liars. O'Reilly is a liar. Lemond is a liar. Walsh is - uh, he's a - aw **** what's another term for "hack"?
Damn. Thought I could do this. I have new respect for those guys, denial is tougher than it looks.

 

[JohnO]

I have great respect for Ressiot, Walsh, L'Equipe, et al...

While they were being such fierce watchdogs going after Armstrong, half the peloton was blood doping right under their very noses. Good work, guys. You were really on top of that one.

Wait, we don't need musette et al - I'm pretty sure I can handle this one on my own:
l'Equipe is a rag. Ressiot is a hack. Armstrong has never tested positive. Andreu and Swart are liars. O'Reilly is a liar. Lemond is a liar. Walsh is - uh, he's a - aw **** what's another term for "hack"?
Damn. Thought I could do this. I have new respect for those guys, denial is tougher than it looks.

 

[Serafino]

I have great respect for Ressiot, Walsh, L'Equipe, et al...

While they were being such fierce watchdogs going after Armstrong, half the peloton was blood doping right under their very noses. Good work, guys. You were really on top of that one.

Too true. I guess they'll investigate Big Mig, Hinault, Lemond, and Eddy next.

The lure of money should have (or might still, who knows) get someone to rat on Lance (or other big fish) if they have the goods on him, etc. As far as Frankie is concerned, he has no crediblity. He could have admitted doping long before he did and he was fired (prior to the admission) by Toyota-United.

 

[thebluetrain]

L'Equipre had good success showing Armstrong used EPO. It probably did not cost them anything. It just took good investigative reporting.

LOL, that ranks right up there with "lance armstrong started all this". Is this what you call "good investigaive reporting". http://www.cyclingfans.com/lequipe_vs_lance_armstrong_michel_dalloni_novel_roman.html

 

[limerickman]

I have great respect for Ressiot, Walsh, L'Equipe, et al...

While they were being such fierce watchdogs going after Armstrong, half the peloton was blood doping right under their very noses. Good work, guys. You were really on top of that one.

For the umpteenth time - L'Equipe has reported on riders of various nationalities and their doping practices.
Dave Walsh has reported most of the doping scandals - he did so at the Sunday Tribune, Sunday Independent and the Sunday Times too.
The guy is a great sports reporter.

Anyhow, the fact that certain riders may have received more coverage, doesn't mitigate the fact that they cheated.
And setting aside the media coverage - the various positive doping test results match the rider, to the race in which he cheated.

 

[Leafer]

I have great respect for Ressiot, Walsh, L'Equipe, et al...

While they were being such fierce watchdogs going after Armstrong, half the peloton was blood doping right under their very noses. Good work, guys. You were really on top of that one.

Sure. But they still caught the biggest fish.

 

[JohnO]

If he was that good, why did he miss the biggest doping story in cycling? Four years of digging through LA's trash, and all he could find was one disgruntled gal and a silly tale of makeup. He would have been far better served by following the whispers of blood doping that were floating around. He'd have gotten Ullrich, Basso, and Valverde, plus a hundred other riders.

Great sports reporter, indeed.

For the umpteenth time - L'Equipe has reported on riders of various nationalities and their doping practices.
Dave Walsh has reported most of the doping scandals - he did so at the Sunday Tribune, Sunday Independent and the Sunday Times too.
The guy is a great sports reporter.

Anyhow, the fact that certain riders may have received more coverage, doesn't mitigate the fact that they cheated.
And setting aside the media coverage - the various positive doping test results match the rider, to the race in which he cheated.

 

[thunder]

If he was that good, why did he miss the biggest doping story in cycling? Four years of digging through LA's trash, and all he could find was one disgruntled gal and a silly tale of makeup. He would have been far better served by following the whispers of blood doping that were floating around. He'd have gotten Ullrich, Basso, and Valverde, plus a hundred other riders.

Great sports reporter, indeed.

not sure if he is still lead editor in the sports division of Sunday Times, but he is based in London, and has to be across all sports. Surely he would have heard whispers of Fuentes' and his practices prior to 2006, but his remit was not to investigate them for his UK paper. Armstrong was a special case. Not like Walsh had the doping reportage remit at L'Equipe like Ressiot. Point the finger at him.

Not easy to access infofor Ressiot with the Omerta.

 

[Frigo's Luggage]

I also hope that the focus switches to the teams, directors and staff. I live in Philadelphia and have been in the rider's area immediatley after the USPRO race. Basically what you have is a bunch of kids (ie the riders) being ordered around by fat old men (the DS and soigners). Its obvious that the riders are treated as if they are expendable and the real problem rests with the management. Those guys tell the riders what to do and when to do it. But, when the **** hits the fan, they never get in trouble because they distance themselves from the kids who get scapegoated.

Also, if you see these guys after a race, it is obvious who is doping and who is clean. I saw Comesso just after his first race back after his unfortnate cocaine suspension. So, I figured he was probably the cleanest guy in the field. He just finished the Philadelphia race in the lead group of about 10 guys. After 5 hours of racing, he looked like **** and was about to cough up a lung. On the other hand, Fabrizio Guidi looked like he just finished a liesurely stroll in the park even though he finished in the same group as Comesso. So, in my opinion, doping improves your performance...Not that I think that former Phonak rider Fabrizio Guidi was doped or anything.

Oh yeah. Comesso dropped trough and ****** right in front of about 50 people. That was fun.

If you buy the Landis story that he was offered a vastly reduced sentence if he implicated Lance then its likely that people have been gunning for evidence for many years without much success. Any doubt that some rags (or L'Equipe, etc.) haven't offered big dollars for an "expose".

Interesting to see what happens to Riis is he's implicated as a doper. He hasn't addressed any of the allegations (or denied them).

I hope that the focus switches to the teams, management, doctors, etc., who advise, cajole, assist, and administer the doping. I'm sure its not alll the rider's ideas. The teams aren't innocent victims in this who know nothing.

 

[wolfix]

Paging musette, bobke, and wolfix. You are all wanted in the lobby...

They have all doped......... But LA is still the best TDF rider of all time. JU, Basso and others could dope and still not ride his wheel.
They are not in LA's league.....
But LA has not been convicted of anything with a witchunt in full force.
I did think JU was innocent. He is so powerful. But he simply did not have a champions heart. But that was really naive thinking on my part, considering he was a East German. It;s what they were taught.... I'm convinced that my favorite rider is doping too, Erik Zabel. And probably Eki did too. The program they came from had dope as a base.
But so far no one has had definite proof of anything since 1999 on LA, and that may not even be proof.

I do not think that there ever was a clean TDF winner in my lifetime.
I wasn't even a LA fan until I saw all the anti-American attitudes on the forum. Which is really ******** because cycling is such a international sport.
Of course Americans are going to be Discovery fans. And Americans will continue doing well in the TDF. and why shouldn't we????? We are a large country, Almost as big as Europe as a whole. Cycling may not be a major sport here in the US, but we have a very large number of riders. The guy that got me involved had a shop where a 3 time TDF winner, a Giro winner, and a few World champion women hung out in...... His shop contained more GT winners then most European counties ever had. If his shop was a country he could claim more world champions and GT winners then Ireland, Denmark , GB, and other European countries could,
So not to accept America as a cycling country is wrong. And the constant attacking of Discovery gets old. Bruyneel is going down as one of the greatest GT DS ever..... Get over it.
America is here to stay in cycling. They have the reins in CSC and T-Mobile. They control Discovery. The US has as much control in cycling as any country.
And since TM has been taken over by an American, who has the best drug control program??? It could be argued that CSC has a better drug control program...... but wait...... CSC is American controlled...
How can that be????? Americans are the root cause of doping..... It did not exsist until Discovery came along.....
It wasn't really doping until EPO came along. Oh no, the riders were suspended when testing positive because it wasn't really cheating. Cycling was such a clean sport.

 

[Frigo's Luggage]

Zabel is reportedly clean. However, I could be naive. Get over the Armstrong thing. Six+ positive tests. It wasn't a witchhunt. He was doped.

They have all doped......... But LA is still the best TDF rider of all time. JU, Basso and others could dope and still not ride his wheel.
They are not in LA's league.....
But LA has not been convicted of anything with a witchunt in full force.
I did think JU was innocent. He is so powerful. But he simply did not have a champions heart. But that was really naive thinking on my part, considering he was a East German. It;s what they were taught.... I'm convinced that my favorite rider is doping too, Erik Zabel. And probably Eki did too. The program they came from had dope as a base.
But so far no one has had definite proof of anything since 1999 on LA, and that may not even be proof.

I do not think that there ever was a clean TDF winner in my lifetime.
I wasn't even a LA fan until I saw all the anti-American attitudes on the forum. Which is really ******** because cycling is such a international sport.
Of course Americans are going to be Discovery fans. And Americans will continue doing well in the TDF. and why shouldn't we????? We are a large country, Almost as big as Europe as a whole. Cycling may not be a major sport here in the US, but we have a very large number of riders. The guy that got me involved had a shop where a 3 time TDF winner, a Giro winner, and a few World champion women hung out in...... His shop contained more GT winners then most European counties ever had. If his shop was a country he could claim more world champions and GT winners then Ireland, Denmark , GB, and other European countries could,
So not to accept America as a cycling country is wrong. And the constant attacking of Discovery gets old. Bruyneel is going down as one of the greatest GT DS ever..... Get over it.
America is here to stay in cycling. They have the reins in CSC and T-Mobile. They control Discovery. The US has as much control in cycling as any country.
And since TM has been taken over by an American, who has the best drug control program??? It could be argued that CSC has a better drug control program...... but wait...... CSC is American controlled...
How can that be????? Americans are the root cause of doping..... It did not exsist until Discovery came along.....
It wasn't really doping until EPO came along. Oh no, the riders were suspended when testing positive because it wasn't really cheating. Cycling was such a clean sport.

 

[Bro Deal]

I wasn't even a LA fan until I saw all the anti-American attitudes on the forum.

Let me get this straight. You were not an Armstrong fan, but because of some anti-American attitudes you decided to support a dope experiment on wheels like Armstrong. That makes sense. My country right or wrong. I thought that sort of thinking went out of style in the 1940s.

Armstrong would never have placed in the top twenty of the TdF if EPO was not invented. He was using more EPO than any other rider in 1999 and he may be the biggest fraud in the history of sport. Get over it.

 

[Bro Deal]

I do not think that there ever was a clean TDF winner in my lifetime.

You get really hopping mad when people point out Armstrong's dope use and are very quick to accuse riders in the 70s and 80s. There is a mountain of evidence showing that Armstrong doped. Where is your evidence that Lemond doped?

 

[poulidor]

They have all doped......... But LA is still the best TDF rider of all time. JU, Basso and others could dope and still not ride his wheel.
They are not in LA's league.....
...
I do not think that there ever was a clean TDF winner in my lifetime.
I wasn't even a LA fan until I saw all the anti-American attitudes on the forum. Which is really ******** because cycling is such a international sport.
...

There is no real anti-american attitudes, just anti-LA-DC attitude, and I think they "deserve" it. Despite our anti-americanism (must I say anti-foul attitude?), we like Lemond, Hampsten,...To choose Basso wasn't a good idea of DC and Lance too.
Saying LA is clean is stupid as exits many evidences of he doped. Are we all stupid?
To say LA was the greater reinforces his haiting because of his victories are the results of better doping program, too expensive for other riders.
If Basson, Mentheour, (riders extremely probably enough clean)... could have, maybe, win TDF against Lemond, it was not possible without PEDs against an EPO/PEDs riders as Riis, LA or BASSO.
It you appen his attitude or threatens against Basson, Simoni, ... you understand that he could be seen as a little mafioso.
And don't forget, how he is speaking from lab, reporters, ...

So, despite his 7 "victories", aware people never will seen him as the greatest rider.

 

[limerickman]

But LA is still the best TDF rider of all time. .

One of the best TDF riders of all time.

But the best of all time?

I disagree.

JU, Basso and others could dope and still not ride his wheel.
They are not in LA's league.....

We don't know if JU or Basso or the others doped at the TDF.
We do know that LA did dope at the TDF - the test results prove this.

So, you're correct to suggest that they weren't in his league - they couldn't have been in his league because they weren't using EPO at the TDF.

I wasn't even a LA fan until I saw all the anti-American attitudes on the forum.

Anti-American attitudes????

I suspect that a lot of so-called cycling fans - who in reality are only Armstrong fans - are unable to discern criticism of a rider as distinct from criticism of a country/entire people.

So not to accept America as a cycling country is wrong.

The point made was that Europe is the root of cycling in terms of rider numbers, local races, local support, stage/GT heritage.
And in the current crisis, it makes sense for the UCI to focus on nurturing this existing base, rather than trying to grow viewer numbers elsewhere on the basis of allowing doping to flourish (which got us in to this mess in the first place).

America hasn't got the same level of rider numbers, local races, local support, stage/GT heritage, as Europe.
Cycling in the US is the minority of the minority sports.
I'm not stating this in order to denigrate US or the US cycling - I'm simply stating a fact.

America is here to stay in cycling. They have the reins in CSC and T-Mobile. They control Discovery. The US has as much control in cycling as any country.

Using that logic, Ireland control's Chevron Oil!
Dave O'Reilly from Blackrock, Dublin, is CEO at Chevron.

I don't think that washes.