Another 49 cyclists implicated in OP ! new 6000 page dossier released...

[limerickman]

There is no real anti-american attitudes, just anti-LA-DC attitude, and I think they "deserve" it. Despite our anti-americanism (must I say anti-foul attitude?), we like Lemond, Hampsten,...

I've said it many times that the likes of Hampsten and LeMond have nothing but respect from European cycling fans.
So the anti-American charge is bogus in my opinion.

If anything the number of times LeMond beat Sean Kelly and Stephen Roche would influence me to be anti-LeMond (anti-American cycling).

LeMond deprived Irish cycling of the retention of the world road race title at Chambery in 89.
Do I hate LeMond???
I certainly don't.
LeMond was a superb cyclist (as was Hampsten).

 

[whiteboytrash]

Thought this comment was interesting:

McQuaid also said UCI lawyers are digging through an additional 6000 pages of documents accumulated by Spanish authorities. An initial review by a UCI attorney indicated there are not additional names expected to be implicated in the damaging affair.

- so there are no more names ?

 

[Serafino]

I've said it many times that the likes of Hampsten and LeMond have nothing but respect from European cycling fans.
So the anti-American charge is bogus in my opinion.

If anything the number of times LeMond beat Sean Kelly and Stephen Roche would influence me to be anti-LeMond (anti-American cycling).

LeMond deprived Irish cycling of the retention of the world road race title at Chambery in 89.
Do I hate LeMond???
I certainly don't.
LeMond was a superb cyclist (as was Hampsten).

But, the question is did Lemond dope in any manner? Can you be certain that he didn't. And if he did, then who's to say he wouldn't have availed himself of whatever doping regimens existed in any decade he raced in ...

Hard to believe that they were all clean prior to Lance as some here try to imply ....

 

[Serafino]

Thought this comment was interesting:

McQuaid also said UCI lawyers are digging through an additional 6000 pages of documents accumulated by Spanish authorities. An initial review by a UCI attorney indicated there are not additional names expected to be implicated in the damaging affair.

- so there are no more names ?

Some nice pre TdF PR maybe? What about the other reports of 40+ more riders. He said that it would take until the end of the year to get to the bottom of this new 6000 page document, and now on the first day of the Giro ... cased closed on any new riders named?

What about making the teams, etc., accountable. What about the Telekom revelations and Riis. Shouldn't they be addressed?

What we need is a competent UCI headed by someone who can get things done.

 

[kennf]

But, the question is did Lemond dope in any manner? Can you be certain that he didn't. And if he did, then who's to say he wouldn't have availed himself of whatever doping regimens existed in any decade he raced in ...

Hard to believe that they were all clean prior to Lance as some here try to imply ....

No one has ever come up with any accusation or rumor concerning Lemond doping. Does that prove he was clean? No, but you'd think we'd have heard some mud slung around if he was doping. When he won the Tour in '86, no one was saying "how the hell did this guy suddenly win the Tour?" As far as riders "before Lance", I believe Lemond has implied that Indurain was doped to the gills (along with pretty much all the Spanish riders post 1991). And then Riis, and then of course Ullrich. I don't think anyone on this forum believes all riders were clean before Lance.

 

[musette]

No one has ever come up with any accusation or rumor concerning Lemond doping. Does that prove he was clean? No, but you'd think we'd have heard some mud slung around if he was doping.

I don't know whether Lemond doped. But even if hypothetically he did dope, there are several reasons that people would not be so focused on trying to allege he doped:

1) LM won the TdF a lot longer ago, and is much less well-known outside of the cycling community, esp in the US. Obviously, LM's career is considerably less distinguished than LA's, including because LM won a lot fewer TdF (leaving aside the consecutive nature of LA's wins as an additional accomplishment).

Therefore, the boost to circulation of newspapers by trying to allege that LM doped is not as great as if a more accomplished (career-wise) cyclist were sought to be targeted. In other words, LA is a much bigger fish to try and go after.

2) Many people don't care about what LM did or not. He is viewed by many outside the cycling community as somewhat irrelevant (not that that is right), or he is remembered for things other than his accomplishments.

3) LM seems petty. He could be viewed by some as being jealous of LA's success and overshadowing of himself (esp LA's financial remuneration).

Who wouldn't like to be in LA's shoes of having had such a great career, such great teammates and such a great DS?

 

[pukka]

Armstrong's "investment" in the blood machine was a good one. It allowed him to get away with quite a bit included cortisone and EPO positives. It should be mentioned that the supposed blood machine that was purchased didn't detect any type of blood transfusion but only able to take blood parameters readings. In other words the machine didn't do a hell of a lot and I wouldn't be surprised if the machine didn't exist.

The donation came up during the Armstrong SCS insurance trial where in his deposition Armstrong all of sudden forget the amount he donated, what the money was used for and even if he got a receipt for the donation. Very strange.... someone should open the books in the UCI and you may find other donation of this kind... not just from riders but from federations...

Mate, you are riding close to the razor, I suggest you back off, or you will find yourself in a world full of hurt.

RE: The above comments relating to the purchase of the said doping machine are incorrect.
The monies provided to the Lab were;

1. Provided as a charitable donation by Tail Wind Sport Management, and like most companies, used to offset tax.
2. This was organised through Bill Stapleton and the accounting team of TWS, at no point were any athletes from TWS aware of this.
3. The monies were not provided for any particular use, nor did they have any conditions attached to it.
4. At the legal proceedings that evolved, the financials were reviewed, and items were asked to be clarified.

Much has been made of this donation, most of it libelous, clearly charity does not begin at home.

 

[poulidor]

What we need is a competent UCI headed by someone who can get things done.

Don't you think to Verbruggen and his boy-friend Vrijman? Sure the 2 have an Kolossal honest carrier!

 

[Frigo's Luggage]

So we can stop hearing the argument that Armstrong must be clean because he donates money to fight doping? Instead, the donation was organized by his lawyer for tax purposes and by coincidence it was paid to the organization that would be responsible for regulating Armstrong?

Any US tax lawyers or accountants reading this that would be able to comment on whether a donation to the UCI would be tax deductible? I suspect it would not be deductible. Is this really the justification for making the donation? Pukka, where do you get your information? I'm interested because I've never heard any of these details before?

Mate, you are riding close to the razor, I suggest you back off, or you will find yourself in a world full of hurt.

RE: The above comments relating to the purchase of the said doping machine are incorrect.
The monies provided to the Lab were;

1. Provided as a charitable donation by Tail Wind Sport Management, and like most companies, used to offset tax.
2. This was organised through Bill Stapleton and the accounting team of TWS, at no point were any athletes from TWS aware of this.
3. The monies were not provided for any particular use, nor did they have any conditions attached to it.
4. At the legal proceedings that evolved, the financials were reviewed, and items were asked to be clarified.

Much has been made of this donation, most of it libelous, clearly charity does not begin at home.

 

[limerickman]

But, the question is did Lemond dope in any manner? Can you be certain that he didn't.

I don't know if Greg LeMond doped.

And if he did, then who's to say he wouldn't have availed himself of whatever doping regimens existed in any decade he raced in ...
.

Again, none of us know if he doped or not.
There's no evidence to suggest that LeMond did dope.

Hard to believe that they were all clean prior to Lance as some here try to imply ....

Again no one here is suggesting that "they" were all clean riders years ago.

Your problem is that clear evidence linking a rider to a race was detected in 1999.

By pointing the finger at other riders and saying "well, they all doped....." doesn't mitigate the fact that your man failed seven separate dope tests in the 1999 TDF (six separate EPO tests and one cortiscoid test).

 

[jhuskey]

Just completed a nice ride with beautiful weather 50 Km's. A bit of a head wind but nice blue skies.
Hit a dog yesterday but we are both ok.
What is this thread about again?

 

[cyclingheroes]

........................

- so there are no more names ?

You still believe the boys from Aigle?

 

[Bro Deal]

Again no one here is suggesting that "they" were all clean riders years ago.

My point would be that a clean rider could win in the 70s and 80s. I don't believe that a clean rider can win a GT today and that a clean rider has not been able to win since about 1991. Lemond may not have been clean, but he could have been. There has not been any evidence that come out to suggest he was doping.

 

[cyclingheroes]

My point would be that a clean rider could win in the 70s and 80s. I don't believe that a clean rider can win a GT today and that a clean rider has not been able to win since about 1991. Lemond may not have been clean, but he could have been. There has not been any evidence that come out to suggest he was doping.

Actually I don't care what happened in the seventies or eighties. But..with one exception: DS's that were positive in those years and still leading teams now should be questioned...

 

[Bro Deal]

The monies provided to the Lab were;

1. Provided as a charitable donation by Tail Wind Sport Management, and like most companies, used to offset tax.
2. This was organised through Bill Stapleton and the accounting team of TWS, at no point were any athletes from TWS aware of this.
3. The monies were not provided for any particular use, nor did they have any conditions attached to it.
4. At the legal proceedings that evolved, the financials were reviewed, and items were asked to be clarified.

How believable is that. A sports team based on sponsorship doesn't need a tax deduction. Armstrong is part owner so why would he be unaware of a huge donation? Why would TWS decide one day they would give a huge chunk of cash to an organization for no particular use?

Uh, huh. Smells like a bribe to me.

 

[Bro Deal]

Actually I don't care what happened in the seventies or eighties. But..with one exception: DS's that were positive in those years and still leading teams now should be questioned...

That would be nice. I am not too optimistic that it will happen. It would take more companies to take a hard line like T-Mobile has.

 

[patch70]

They have all doped......... But LA is still the best TDF rider of all time. JU, Basso and others could dope and still not ride his wheel.
They are not in LA's league.....
But LA has not been convicted of anything with a witchunt in full force.
I did think JU was innocent. He is so powerful. But he simply did not have a champions heart. But that was really naive thinking on my part, considering he was a East German. It;s what they were taught.... I'm convinced that my favorite rider is doping too, Erik Zabel. And probably Eki did too. The program they came from had dope as a base.
But so far no one has had definite proof of anything since 1999 on LA, and that may not even be proof.

I do not think that there ever was a clean TDF winner in my lifetime.
I wasn't even a LA fan until I saw all the anti-American attitudes on the forum. Which is really ******** because cycling is such a international sport.
Of course Americans are going to be Discovery fans. And Americans will continue doing well in the TDF. and why shouldn't we????? We are a large country, Almost as big as Europe as a whole. Cycling may not be a major sport here in the US, but we have a very large number of riders. The guy that got me involved had a shop where a 3 time TDF winner, a Giro winner, and a few World champion women hung out in...... His shop contained more GT winners then most European counties ever had. If his shop was a country he could claim more world champions and GT winners then Ireland, Denmark , GB, and other European countries could,
So not to accept America as a cycling country is wrong. And the constant attacking of Discovery gets old. Bruyneel is going down as one of the greatest GT DS ever..... Get over it.
America is here to stay in cycling. They have the reins in CSC and T-Mobile. They control Discovery. The US has as much control in cycling as any country.
And since TM has been taken over by an American, who has the best drug control program??? It could be argued that CSC has a better drug control program...... but wait...... CSC is American controlled...
How can that be????? Americans are the root cause of doping..... It did not exsist until Discovery came along.....
It wasn't really doping until EPO came along. Oh no, the riders were suspended when testing positive because it wasn't really cheating. Cycling was such a clean sport.

Samuel Johnson said "Patriotism is the last resort of the scoundrel".

This post confirms this.

 

[wolfix]

Samuel Johnson said "Patriotism is the last resort of the scoundrel".

This post confirms this.

Or it could be a reply to a anti-American poster who seems to have a self esteem problem. What is in that post is nothing but fact. America is not the root of any problem in cycling. Cycling had it's problems before America was even involved in pro cycling.

 

[cyclingheroes]

.................... It would take more companies to take a hard line like T-Mobile has.

They did?

 

[poulidor]

How believable is that. A sports team based on sponsorship doesn't need a tax deduction. Armstrong is part owner so why would he be unaware of a huge donation? Why would TWS decide one day they would give a huge chunk of cash to an organization for no particular use?

Uh, huh. Smells like a bribe to me.

Maybe it coulb be explain why some positive testing were leaked to the press avoiding another withewashing!