Another 'blame the victim' iPod story. : Follow up



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p.k.

Guest
There was a thread on this in June:
http://www.prestontoday.net/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=73&ArticleID=1825988


Death crash cyclist was listening to stereo
A teenage cyclist was crushed under the wheels of a tractor as he listened
to his personal stereo, an inquest was told.

Bradley Dargavel, 14, from Garstang Road, Barton, was travelling towards
Broughton crossroads on his BMX bike to meet his friends when the accident
happened on June 14.

Preston Coroner's Court heard how the Broughton Business and Enterprise
College pupil did not look where he was going before trying to cross the
busy A6.

Tractor driver Ian Pye had turned right from Whittingham Lane and was on the
A6 travelling towards Garstang. He did not have time to stop before
colliding with the youngster, who was not wearing a helmet.

Bradley was taken to the Royal Preston Hospital suffering from fractures to
his skull, arms and legs and from internal injuries. He never regained
consciousness.

Leroy Lee told the court that he saw the teenager ride in front of his
Vauxhall Vectra seconds before he was crushed by the tractor, which was also
pulling a trailer. He said: "I saw him in my mirror then he came in front of
me and started across the road. I thought he saw the tractor too late and he
tried to get away."

Accident investigator PC Richard Roberts said: "The driver wasn't in a
position to avoid this collision. Bradley was wearing a pair of earphones
and was listening to a personal stereo, which may have contributed to the
accident."

Assistant deputy coroner Carolyn Singleton recorded a verdict of accidental
death.

Outside court Bradley's mother Debbie, 38, who works for supermarket firm
Booths, said she did not blame Mr Pye for her son's death.
She said: "It's just been a terrible tragic accident."

pk
 
M

Mark Thompson

Guest
> Death crash cyclist was listening to stereo

Death crash cyclist didn't frigging look.

I'm always scared of cyclists that claim hearing makes them a lot safer. I
assume they're the kind of rider that hears the tractor but won't hear
another cyclist, or pulls out into the path of a bus (thought it was 30ft
behind 'em, rather than level with their back wheel).
 
T

Tom

Guest
p.k. <[email protected]> wrote:
> There was a thread on this in June:
> http://www.prestontoday.net/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=73&ArticleID=1825988
>
>
> Death crash cyclist was listening to stereo <snip>
>He did not have time to stop before colliding with the youngster, who was
>not wearing a helmet.
>


What use would a helmet be against a bloody tractor? Not wearing a huge
flashing neon sign saying "I pull out in front of tractors" might have some
relevance but a polystyrene ceiling tile strapped to his head would not have
made the slightest bit of differance.

I'm turning into my Dad, and it worries me.

I'm going to have to change my sig file to say "Mr Angry, who shouts at the
TV, newspapers and anything else he reads"

Tom
--
Return address is dead. Real address is at
http://www.happy-penguin.info/address.jpg
 
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David Martin

Guest
Mark Thompson wrote:
> > Death crash cyclist was listening to stereo

>
> Death crash cyclist didn't frigging look.
>
> I'm always scared of cyclists that claim hearing makes them a lot safer. I
> assume they're the kind of rider that hears the tractor but won't hear
> another cyclist, or pulls out into the path of a bus (thought it was 30ft
> behind 'em, rather than level with their back wheel).


I think the stereo and helmet are read herrings. After all, had he
followed good practice (lookleft, look right look left again etc.) he
can't have failed to see a gert big tractor. Likewise, does anyone
seriously think that a piece of styrofoam designed to just protect a
head on it's own from a fall of 1.2m will protect against several tons
of tractor?

...d
 
J

John B

Guest
David Martin wrote:

>
> Likewise, does anyone
> seriously think that a piece of styrofoam designed to just protect a
> head on it's own from a fall of 1.2m will protect against several tons
> of tractor?


Regrettably, yes :-((

John B
 
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Paul Boyd

Guest
David Martin said the following on 17/10/2006 15:14:
> Likewise, does anyone
> seriously think that a piece of styrofoam designed to just protect a
> head on it's own from a fall of 1.2m will protect against several tons
> of tractor?


Yes - politicians who are trying to be seen to be doing something
constructive towards road safety. If you suggested that all cars and
tractors are covered in styrofoam to protect cyclists and pedestrians,
people would laugh at the idea.

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/
 
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Paul Boyd

Guest
p.k. said the following on 17/10/2006 14:43:

> Outside court Bradley's mother Debbie, 38, who works for supermarket firm
> Booths, said she did not blame Mr Pye for her son's death.
> She said: "It's just been a terrible tragic accident."


What a contrast to the other story recently where a mother who's son was
injured through not wearing a helmet (she says) is starting yet another
campaign to make helmets compulsory.

(Apart from the fact that whilst tragic, I'm not sure that a collision
caused by not looking where you're going counts as an accident.)

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/
 
On 17 Oct 2006 07:14:12 -0700, "David Martin"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Likewise, does anyone
>seriously think that a piece of styrofoam designed to just protect a
>head on it's own from a fall of 1.2m will protect against several tons
>of tractor?
>



I give you "Starr", "Scharf", "Ozark", and the Williams Sornson and
Zaumen.
 
P

Paul Murphy

Guest
"David Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> I think the stereo and helmet are read herrings. After all, had he
> followed good practice (lookleft, look right look left again etc.) he
> can't have failed to see a gert big tractor. Likewise, does anyone
> seriously think that a piece of styrofoam designed to just protect a
> head on it's own from a fall of 1.2m will protect against several tons
> of tractor?
>

Do we know if the skull fractures were from the weight of the tractor or
simply the fall/impact - quite possibly the latter. Similarly do we know
what volume the music was at and how much external noise the earphones
blocked out? Without knowing more its hard to be clear about contributing
factors or whether these are red herrings or relevant.

Paul
 
P

Paul Murphy

Guest
"Tom" <Don'[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
<snip>
>
> What use would a helmet be against a bloody tractor?


That would depend whether the tractor ran over the top of it or the victims
head was injured by impact as a result of colliding with the tractor..

Paul
 
A

Ambrose Nankivell

Guest
Paul Murphy wrote:
> "Tom" <Don'[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> <snip>
>>
>> What use would a helmet be against a bloody tractor?

>
> That would depend whether the tractor ran over the top of it or the
> victims head was injured by impact as a result of colliding with the
> tractor..


The grandparent post answers that question in a manner as to suggest that
only a complete suit of armour would have saved the child's life. It would
have had an adverse effect on his hearing.

This is of course generally the case with collisions with motor vehicles.

A
 
P

Paul Murphy

Guest
"Ambrose Nankivell" <firstname+'n'@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Paul Murphy wrote:
>> "Tom" <Don'[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>> <snip>
>>>
>>> What use would a helmet be against a bloody tractor?

>>
>> That would depend whether the tractor ran over the top of it or the
>> victims head was injured by impact as a result of colliding with the
>> tractor..

>
> The grandparent post answers that question in a manner as to suggest that
> only a complete suit of armour would have saved the child's life. It would
> have had an adverse effect on his hearing.


I see no statement that the victims head injuries resulted from crushing.
Agreed that wearing any sort of earphones will have some effect on hearing
the environment nearby but whether this significantly contributed to the
accident is unknown.

Paul
 
A

AT

Guest
"Paul Boyd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> p.k. said the following on 17/10/2006 14:43:
>
> > Outside court Bradley's mother Debbie, 38, who works for supermarket

firm
> > Booths, said she did not blame Mr Pye for her son's death.
> > She said: "It's just been a terrible tragic accident."

>
> What a contrast to the other story recently where a mother who's son was
> injured through not wearing a helmet (she says) is starting yet another
> campaign to make helmets compulsory.


A case of crying over spilt milk. Half the people I see don't even wear
their helmets properly, exposing plenty of bare forehead for a passing
vehicle or kerb.
>
> (Apart from the fact that whilst tragic, I'm not sure that a collision
> caused by not looking where you're going counts as an accident.)
>

Cycling poses dangers for even "experienced" or "serious" cyclists these
days so a kid not paying attention is asking to be "hedgehogged".

AT
 
Hi,

AT wrote:
> Cycling poses dangers for even "experienced" or "serious" cyclists these
> days...


"These days"? It always did. Personally, I reckon it's safer now. Like
life in general.

That's why everyone's so worked up about "danger"- if you're not
worried about dying of diphtheria, tuberculosis, tetanus, yellow fever,
polio, measles etc nor running a significant risk of being killed in an
industrial accident or war then your perception of risk gets a bit
distorted...

Cheers,
W.
 
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David Hansen

Guest
On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:43:22 +0100 someone who may be "p.k."
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>http://www.prestontoday.net/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=73&ArticleID=1825988
>
>Preston Coroner's Court heard how the Broughton Business and Enterprise
>College pupil did not look where he was going before trying to cross the
>busy A6.


Which was rather foolish.

>Tractor driver Ian Pye had turned right from Whittingham Lane and was on the
>A6 travelling towards Garstang. He did not have time to stop before
>colliding with the youngster,


What sort of speed can tractors be driven at these days? How does
their stopping distance compare to a car?

>who was not wearing a helmet.
>
>Bradley was taken to the Royal Preston Hospital suffering from fractures to
>his skull, arms and legs and from internal injuries.


And were these internal injuries life threatening? If they were how
would a bit of polystyrene on the head made a difference to the
outcome?

>Accident investigator PC Richard Roberts said: "The driver wasn't in a
>position to avoid this collision. Bradley was wearing a pair of earphones
>and was listening to a personal stereo, which may have contributed to the
>accident."


And may well not have done. We don't know the volume for a start.
Even without headphones it seems unlikely that someone would be able
to distinguish the sound of one motor vehicle from another in what
sounds like a stream of the things.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
 
S

Simon Brooke

Guest
in message <[email protected]>, David Hansen
('[email protected]') wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:43:22 +0100 someone who may be "p.k."
> <[email protected]> wrote this:-
>
>>http://www.prestontoday.net/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=73&ArticleID=1825988
>>
>>Preston Coroner's Court heard how the Broughton Business and Enterprise
>>College pupil did not look where he was going before trying to cross the
>>busy A6.

>
> Which was rather foolish.
>
>>Tractor driver Ian Pye had turned right from Whittingham Lane and was on
>>the A6 travelling towards Garstang. He did not have time to stop before
>>colliding with the youngster,

>
> What sort of speed can tractors be driven at these days? How does
> their stopping distance compare to a car?


Modern tractors can exceed 35mph on the road, although they're not supposed
to; there is some limit above which they're not supposed to be driven.
They have no suspension and many models have no brakes on the front axle.
As the centre of gravity is high and the tyres are generally not designed
for traction on tarmac, this means heavy braking tends to cause the skip
as the brakes grab, causing the vehicle to pitch forward, which in turn
transfers weight off the back axle, greatly reducing braking. This can
quickly develop into a dynamic oscillation, and I know of one incident
where a two-year-old tractor literally fell in half when the clutch
housing bolts failed in such an oscillation (it was carrying hay bales on
both a front loader and a rear tine at the time).

In addition, farm tractors are often poorly maintained, and have dangerous
implements attached to the front, rear or both.

Stopping distance can be staggeringly poor.

It is really scandalous that the use of agricultural tractors on the public
road is not very much better policed.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

For office use only. Please do not write or type below this line.
 
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David Hansen

Guest
On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:08:57 +0100 someone who may be Simon Brooke
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>It is really scandalous that the use of agricultural tractors on the public
>road is not very much better policed.


There is zero policing. For example when they drove off to the fool
protests using fuel that is supposed only to be used for
agricultural purposes the police failed to do anything about it. It
was clear from these and other inactions that the police were in
league with the fool protestors.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
 
S

Stevie D

Guest
p.k. wrote:

> Death crash cyclist was listening to stereo
> A teenage cyclist was crushed under the wheels of a tractor as he listened
> to his personal stereo, an inquest was told.


It's very sad, but clearly the kid's own fault - sad for the kid's
family and friends, and for the tractor driver - but is it really
possible for a personal stereo to drown out the noise of a tractor? A
car, I could understand, but tractors are a lot louder!

Yet another reminder to teenagers that they are not invulnerable, and
not all motorists are able to swerve out of their way or stop on a
sixpence.

--
Stevie D
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