Another "feat"

Discussion in 'General Fitness' started by Tim Downie, Mar 24, 2006.

  1. Tim Downie

    Tim Downie Guest

    Okay, it's not really running but for those of you who enjoy reading about
    other people's suffering and achievements, this takes some beating. It's an
    account of a solo unsupported Ramsay round, one of the UKs tougher
    (?toughest) long distance challenges (despite being one of the shortest).
    (http://www.aqvi55.dsl.pipex.com/run/ld_challenge.htm)

    For most, doing in non-stop in good weather is enough but to claim you've
    "done it" you've got to do it in 24hrs. For the absolute masochists, you do
    it in full winter conditions unsupported and hang the time.

    Anyway, enough preamble, here's the account. Prepare to be awed.

    http://www.geocities.com/johndavidfleetwood/winter_ramsay_account.pdf

    Have a look at his other stuff if you really want to feel inadequate. ;-)

    http://www.longdistancechallenges.blogspot.com/

    Enjoy.

    Tim
     
    Tags:


  2. Sir Lancelot

    Sir Lancelot Guest

    You had to go and make my day.
     
  3. On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 22:47:51 -0000, "Tim Downie"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Okay, it's not really running but for those of you who enjoy reading about
    >other people's suffering


    That's the best.

    Tim
     
  4. Yeah right........the day I'm awed by a jogger is the day I drink Drano.
     
  5. ~ * ~

    "Open your Tiffany
    En Grave's Invitation
    To ...

    The Butterfly Ball ~ !"
    ~ Elroy

    "'Come, take up hats, and away let us haste
    To the Butterfly's Ball and the Grasshopper's Feast;
    The trumpeter, Gadfly, has summoned the crew,
    And the revels are now only waiting for you ~ !'"
    ~ Bill Roscoe

    "Heck, yeah ~ !"
    ~ Fobby

    "Air blew silver quiver sterling borne,
    Silken ribbon, souvenir, worn,
    Tied double parcel, by striking gifted bow

    Aspiring Archer shot ~
    Chord plucked, if nightly aimed,

    All dare to say they dewly know.
    Another mark struck, a familiar name,
    A Memo promptly scented, a Game of Goose ~
    Thyme's stagehands appoint,
    Later today ..."
    ~ La Crema

    "... of Thee & Twittering One & Me adds three,
    My arrow's flight would doubtless see
    And find its mark ... Ball & Thread shimmering sea,
    Till Cretans, Crabs & Minotaurs gaily met
    And all at once we're at the Fete ~ !"
    ~ The Annotator

    "Folly, too."
    ~ Twittering

    "Then off again to Sleep he goes,
    Still swaying gently by his Toes,
    And you just know he knows he knows."
    ~ Theodore Roethke

    *
     
  6. Beach Bounty

    Beach Bounty Guest

    Another "feat"

    Group: rec.running Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2006, 10:47pm (EST+5) From:
    [email protected] (Tim Downie)
    Okay, it's not really running but for those of you who enjoy reading
    about other people's suffering and achievements, this takes some
    beating. It's an account of a solo unsupported Ramsay round, one of the
    UKs tougher (?toughest) long distance challenges (despite being one of
    the shortest). (http://www.aqvi55.dsl.pipex.com/run/ld_challenge.htm)
    For most, doing in non-stop in good weather is enough but to claim
    you've "done it" you've got to do it in 24hrs. For the absolute
    masochists, you do it in full winter conditions unsupported and hang the
    time.
    Anyway, enough preamble, here's the account. Prepare to be awed.
    http://www.geocities.com/johndavidfleetwood/winter_ramsay_account.pdf
    Have a look at his other stuff if you really want to feel inadequate.
    ;-)
    http://www.longdistancechallenges.blogspot.com/
    Enjoy.
    Tim

    Aweled.................... ..........

    when you did that 100 mile race. I could not bear the thought so evan
    with my left side.
    I go on me bike and did a 40 miles picking up 10¢ cans and 3 stops to
    empty back
    finishing up a 120 mile week........ maybe 250 that week...........
    .......
    pack and trying my new cage on me back on trash mountain bike.
    there it was a pack of salami (oscar M )
    and in the beer area a 12 pack of bud (beer) needed energy..( oh the
    plan) and the pain, the pain......R U?

    so on m-24 in oxford (michigan I heard the Gov lady on a radio say or
    v. some wear that we all should go and jump into the Great lake.......s
    I thought Why Not.
    I can beat tim 100 miles and go from there.

    I did the math of your long distance thing last wee and way to much
    info......
    so it said 10:10:53.
    in 114 miles at 19 hours and 20 minutes my time.
    evan still not did the ride thru......
    on my really trash bike. well bike is gone.
    cleaning up place and been burning.
    before fire season with these houses being done and all more public
    place now so got to keep up with the jones......

    No what I mean...........

    U all r like the 72 K to much info for the web to do............

    my bad back been near 2 weeks in 5 days. left side is feeling bad.....
    or some times just to throw in the towel and go have fun this
    time....just ride and camp and see new paces butt close to the
    farm......chories and all.......gardens....
    today: in 20 going to 3o something......
    it snow and thinking on riding......

    42°N,83°W 90°N,180° 90°lat,
    3rd planet from the Sun.
    Milky Way, Orion arm.
    U.S.A., Michigan. west of Port Huron
    Bottum of Lake Huron.
     
  7. PSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSYCHO!

    On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 07:55:16 -0500, [email protected] (Beach
    Bounty) wrote:

    >
    >Another "feat"
    >
    >Group: rec.running Date: Fri, Mar 24, 2006, 10:47pm (EST+5) From:
    >[email protected] (Tim Downie)
    >Okay, it's not really running but for those of you who enjoy reading
    >about other people's suffering and achievements, this takes some
    >beating. It's an account of a solo unsupported Ramsay round, one of the
    >UKs tougher (?toughest) long distance challenges (despite being one of
    >the shortest). (http://www.aqvi55.dsl.pipex.com/run/ld_challenge.htm)
    >For most, doing in non-stop in good weather is enough but to claim
    >you've "done it" you've got to do it in 24hrs. For the absolute
    >masochists, you do it in full winter conditions unsupported and hang the
    >time.
    >Anyway, enough preamble, here's the account. Prepare to be awed.
    >http://www.geocities.com/johndavidfleetwood/winter_ramsay_account.pdf
    >Have a look at his other stuff if you really want to feel inadequate.
    >;-)
    >http://www.longdistancechallenges.blogspot.com/
    >Enjoy.
    >Tim
    >
    >Aweled.................... ..........
    >
    >when you did that 100 mile race. I could not bear the thought so evan
    >with my left side.
    >I go on me bike and did a 40 miles picking up 10¢ cans and 3 stops to
    >empty back
    >finishing up a 120 mile week........ maybe 250 that week...........
    >......
    >pack and trying my new cage on me back on trash mountain bike.
    >there it was a pack of salami (oscar M )
    >and in the beer area a 12 pack of bud (beer) needed energy..( oh the
    >plan) and the pain, the pain......R U?
    >
    >so on m-24 in oxford (michigan I heard the Gov lady on a radio say or
    >v. some wear that we all should go and jump into the Great lake.......s
    >I thought Why Not.
    >I can beat tim 100 miles and go from there.
    >
    >I did the math of your long distance thing last wee and way to much
    >info......
    >so it said 10:10:53.
    > in 114 miles at 19 hours and 20 minutes my time.
    > evan still not did the ride thru......
    >on my really trash bike. well bike is gone.
    >cleaning up place and been burning.
    >before fire season with these houses being done and all more public
    >place now so got to keep up with the jones......
    >
    >No what I mean...........
    >
    >U all r like the 72 K to much info for the web to do............
    >
    >my bad back been near 2 weeks in 5 days. left side is feeling bad.....
    >or some times just to throw in the towel and go have fun this
    >time....just ride and camp and see new paces butt close to the
    >farm......chories and all.......gardens....
    >today: in 20 going to 3o something......
    >it snow and thinking on riding......
    >
    > 42°N,83°W 90°N,180° 90°lat,
    > 3rd planet from the Sun.
    > Milky Way, Orion arm.
    > U.S.A., Michigan. west of Port Huron
    > Bottum of Lake Huron.
     
  8. "Slyly slithers, her mate, who breathes
    A pesky tongue, if Piquant's vice
    Rambunctiously romances on bare feet,
    For fork to nab, or dash with Cajun spice."
    ~ Calvin
     
  9. Tony S.

    Tony S. Guest

    "Tim Downie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]idual.net...
    > Okay, it's not really running but for those of you who enjoy reading about
    > other people's suffering and achievements, this takes some beating. It's

    an
    > account of a solo unsupported Ramsay round, one of the UKs tougher
    > (?toughest) long distance challenges (despite being one of the shortest).
    > (http://www.aqvi55.dsl.pipex.com/run/ld_challenge.htm)
    >
    > For most, doing in non-stop in good weather is enough but to claim you've
    > "done it" you've got to do it in 24hrs. For the absolute masochists, you

    do
    > it in full winter conditions unsupported and hang the time.
    >
    > Anyway, enough preamble, here's the account. Prepare to be awed.
    >
    > http://www.geocities.com/johndavidfleetwood/winter_ramsay_account.pdf


    Only mad dogs and englishmen.... wasn't that what the Indians said when
    englishmen sauntered about in the blistering afternoon heat of the decca
    plains? This is indeed a feat, though for the life of me I can't figure out
    why he didn't bring along snowshoes. Is is somehow less pure if snowshoes
    are used? Hell, he used crampons. He also didn't bring enough food or
    clothing, and he didnt' talk about how he got his liquids much.

    The point of a self-challenging feat is captured well in this line "This is
    about survival, nothing else: no-one can get me out of here but me, and I
    guess that therein lies the attraction -- me against the mountain; no get
    out clauses, no options, no turning back -- an elegantly simple challenge".
    I might add a very stupid thing to do alone. It's well written, though the
    language is a bit too romantic. It's too bad he had to write about the part
    where he cried. This kind of il-prepared trek reminds me a an ascetic
    meditating for days with no blanket or food or water - whatever keeps your
    boat floating I guess. Still it was kind of interesting to read.

    -Tony


    > Have a look at his other stuff if you really want to feel inadequate. ;-)
    >
    > http://www.longdistancechallenges.blogspot.com/
    >
    > Enjoy.
    >
    > Tim
    >
    >
     
  10. Tim Downie

    Tim Downie Guest

    Tony S. wrote:

    > Only mad dogs and englishmen.... wasn't that what the Indians said
    > when englishmen sauntered about in the blistering afternoon heat of
    > the decca plains? This is indeed a feat, though for the life of me I
    > can't figure out why he didn't bring along snowshoes. Is is somehow
    > less pure if snowshoes are used?


    Dunno. At a guess I would say that snow shoes wouldn't be good on ice and
    that unless you're prepared to carry both and you're expecting ice, you take
    crampons. (Not that I've any experience of either).Hell, he used crampons.

    > He also
    > didn't bring enough food or clothing, and he didnt' talk about how he
    > got his liquids much.


    He did seem to be carryinging astonishingly little in the way of food
    considering his anticipated level of exertion.

    > The point of a self-challenging feat is captured well in this line
    > "This is about survival, nothing else: no-one can get me out of here
    > but me, and I guess that therein lies the attraction -- me against
    > the mountain; no get out clauses, no options, no turning back -- an
    > elegantly simple challenge". I might add a very stupid thing to do
    > alone. It's well written, though the language is a bit too romantic.
    > It's too bad he had to write about the part where he cried. This kind
    > of il-prepared trek reminds me a an ascetic meditating for days with
    > no blanket or food or water - whatever keeps your boat floating I
    > guess. Still it was kind of interesting to read.


    As you say, well written but I don't feel moved to follow in his footsteps
    quite yet! ;-) It must be great to have that level of confidence in one's
    abilities to survive in the mountains in the winter though. Not for the
    faint hearted.

    Tim
     
  11. Dot

    Dot Guest

    Tim Downie wrote:

    >
    > As you say, well written but I don't feel moved to follow in his footsteps
    > quite yet! ;-) It must be great to have that level of confidence in one's
    > abilities to survive in the mountains in the winter though. Not for the
    > faint hearted.
    >


    Assuming the skills are there for the confidence.
    Apparently one of the racers in the Iditarod Trail Invitational was
    going for course record and had gone extra light on gear. Mother Nature
    served up an old fashioned Alaskan winter for the racers. The racer was
    hypothermic and revived by other racers in the first 50 miles. She
    apparently didn't have the needed skills for the level of gear she had
    taken (or not taken). Not the first one that that's happened to (other
    races). About 1/3 the racers bailed at the 1st check point (mile 50).

    What struck me about the report you posted - besides many of the things
    that Tony said (he needs to count calories better for food supply) - was
    the way he was received at the end. Very stark contrast to the way the
    ITI racers are treated along the way. (I had just finished reading last
    update before I read yours.) The first foot racer reached Nome last
    night (with a police escort), and the 2nd is getting there - maybe
    another few days. Apparently word of these guys is preceding them in the
    villages and people are ready to help them (lodging, food). Lodging may
    just be in local schools, but being sure the racer can get in the middle
    of the night or that drop bags are left outside post office are helpful
    so the runner doesn't have to wait.

    http://www.alaskaultrasport.com/LATEST NEWS..html

    Oh, these folks started Feb 25, 4 wks ago.

    This is a similar report, but a few differences in detail.
    http://www.sleepmonsters.com/racereport.php?race_id=2458#

    Dot

    --
    "Success is different things to different people"
    -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
     
  12. Tony S.

    Tony S. Guest

    "Dot" <[email protected]#duh?att.net> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Tim Downie wrote:
    > >
    > > As you say, well written but I don't feel moved to follow in his

    footsteps
    > > quite yet! ;-) It must be great to have that level of confidence in

    one's
    > > abilities to survive in the mountains in the winter though. Not for the
    > > faint hearted.

    >
    > Assuming the skills are there for the confidence.
    > Apparently one of the racers in the Iditarod Trail Invitational was
    > going for course record and had gone extra light on gear. Mother Nature
    > served up an old fashioned Alaskan winter for the racers. The racer was
    > hypothermic and revived by other racers in the first 50 miles. She
    > apparently didn't have the needed skills for the level of gear she had
    > taken (or not taken). Not the first one that that's happened to (other
    > races). About 1/3 the racers bailed at the 1st check point (mile 50).


    Wow 1/3 bailed, interesting. I guess some were banking on a consistent
    global warm up year-to-year, which isn't the case I guess. It just shows up
    in things like the ice pack, and greenland sliding away into the ocean...

    > What struck me about the report you posted - besides many of the things
    > that Tony said (he needs to count calories better for food supply) - was
    > the way he was received at the end. Very stark contrast to the way the
    > ITI racers are treated along the way. (I had just finished reading last
    > update before I read yours.) The first foot racer reached Nome last
    > night (with a police escort), and the 2nd is getting there - maybe
    > another few days. Apparently word of these guys is preceding them in the
    > villages and people are ready to help them (lodging, food). Lodging may
    > just be in local schools, but being sure the racer can get in the middle
    > of the night or that drop bags are left outside post office are helpful
    > so the runner doesn't have to wait.


    I noticed that too - how poorly he was received at the end. Somewhat
    surprising, but perhaps the (in)famous british reserve? People in AK are
    known for being generous and outdoorsy, isn't that true? Survival up there
    means that people go out of their way to help each other is what I've heard.
    I hope my post didn't seem dismissive of him or his feat - I was just
    surprised that an experienced 'feater' like him wouldn't use snowshoes and
    not pack a bit more extra gear and food (1 kg more would make a difference).
    I would also have liked it if he used more stats in his descriptions rather
    than placenames and flowery descriptions. For example how high the climbs
    were, distance covered, anything like that. It lacked a sense of where he
    was in the feat at each point IMO. But still it was well written.

    > http://www.alaskaultrasport.com/LATEST NEWS..html


    Started reading thanks...

    -Tony

    > Oh, these folks started Feb 25, 4 wks ago.
    >
    > This is a similar report, but a few differences in detail.
    > http://www.sleepmonsters.com/racereport.php?race_id=2458#
    >
    > Dot
    >
    > --
    > "Success is different things to different people"
    > -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
    >
     
  13. Dot

    Dot Guest

    Tony S. wrote:

    > "Dot" <[email protected]#duh?att.net> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >
    >>Tim Downie wrote:
    >>
    >>>As you say, well written but I don't feel moved to follow in his

    >
    > footsteps
    >
    >>>quite yet! ;-) It must be great to have that level of confidence in

    >
    > one's
    >
    >>>abilities to survive in the mountains in the winter though. Not for the
    >>>faint hearted.

    >>
    >>Assuming the skills are there for the confidence.
    >>Apparently one of the racers in the Iditarod Trail Invitational was
    >>going for course record and had gone extra light on gear. Mother Nature
    >>served up an old fashioned Alaskan winter for the racers. The racer was
    >>hypothermic and revived by other racers in the first 50 miles. She
    >>apparently didn't have the needed skills for the level of gear she had
    >>taken (or not taken). Not the first one that that's happened to (other
    >>races). About 1/3 the racers bailed at the 1st check point (mile 50).

    >
    >
    > Wow 1/3 bailed, interesting. I guess some were banking on a consistent
    > global warm up year-to-year, which isn't the case I guess.


    Not sure all what happened, but a good number took a wrong turn and lost
    several hours, which I think discouraged some. Many that dropped early
    were non-Alaskans. That's unusual, but it sounds like there was
    frostbite and illnesses. The Alaskans probably had an edge since they
    train in the first 50 miles and know what the various trail conditions
    are like or likely to be. But the conditions they trained under were not
    at all like the race start. They had tested their loaded bikes and knew
    they could ride them 1 wk earlier. But in the soft snow on the lake ice,
    no one could ride.

    The rules are that you can take any route you want, but have to check in
    at checkpoints. I think there's actually checkers (sometimes lodges)
    there in the 350-mi race, but they call in from the villages in the 1100
    mi version. The description of racers in McGrath (or maybe one of the
    earlier checkpoints) was a "leper colony".

    The week before had been relatively warm (Su100 1 wk earlier had rain),
    heavy snow fell during start (covering the hard-packed, fast trails),
    then got cold that night. And followed by 2 wks of cold weather.
    Iditarod mushers (started 1 wk after this race started) had some similar
    issues - perhaps one of the reasons why the top 4 finishers were all 50
    or over - they had the experience to deal with Alaska winter.


    It just shows up
    > in things like the ice pack, and greenland sliding away into the ocean...
    >
    >
    >>What struck me about the report you posted - besides many of the things
    >>that Tony said (he needs to count calories better for food supply) - was
    >>the way he was received at the end. Very stark contrast to the way the
    >>ITI racers are treated along the way. (I had just finished reading last
    >>update before I read yours.) The first foot racer reached Nome last
    >>night (with a police escort), and the 2nd is getting there - maybe
    >>another few days. Apparently word of these guys is preceding them in the
    >>villages and people are ready to help them (lodging, food). Lodging may
    >>just be in local schools, but being sure the racer can get in the middle
    >>of the night or that drop bags are left outside post office are helpful
    >>so the runner doesn't have to wait.

    >
    >
    > I noticed that too - how poorly he was received at the end. Somewhat
    > surprising, but perhaps the (in)famous british reserve? People in AK are
    > known for being generous and outdoorsy, isn't that true? Survival up there
    > means that people go out of their way to help each other is what I've heard.


    Yes, especially in the villages during winter. The racers also help each
    other when safety is an issue. But the Iditarod time is a special time
    of year. While the culmination is a sled dog race, it's the only time
    many of the villages see this many people. It's an education for the
    local village kids, and many classes around the world treat it as a
    geography lesson. And many racers enjoy interacting with the villagers.
    I know one year, one guy (Tom Possert?) took the time to play basketball
    with the kids (in the middle of an 1100 mi foot race). Besides these
    self-propelled racers and the sled dogs, there's a snow machine race a
    couple weeks earlier. So for about 4-6 wks, it's endurance race season here.


    > I hope my post didn't seem dismissive of him or his feat


    No, abolutely not dismissive of his accomplishments.


    > - I was just
    > surprised that an experienced 'feater' like him wouldn't use snowshoes


    Depending on conditions, snowshoes can be an asset or hindrance. The
    float on top the snow can be problematic going up steep slopes unless
    you have long cleats (or maybe better technique than me) and spooky
    coming down unless you're good at skiing on snowshoes (our snow usually
    isn't deep enough to do this where I go). This is why I got smaller
    snowshoes this year. I was intending to compare snowshoe vs no snowshoe
    on one of our mountains, but the amount of ice we had most of the winter
    kept me off the big hills (others were braver than I and willing to do
    some long butt slides down).


    and
    > not pack a bit more extra gear and food (1 kg more would make a difference).


    That's what concerned me - the amount of food. If you get caught by
    weather and don't have the fuel and hydration issues taken care of, it's
    an open invitation for hypothermia and a downward spiral.


    > I would also have liked it if he used more stats in his descriptions rather
    > than placenames and flowery descriptions. For example how high the climbs
    > were, distance covered, anything like that. It lacked a sense of where he
    > was in the feat at each point IMO. But still it was well written.
    >

    Right. Unless you're familiar with the place names and mtn sizes, it's
    hard to relate sometimes. At times, I felt like I was reading something
    like Robert Service, in some respects.

    Dot

    --
    "Success is different things to different people"
    -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
     
  14. Dot

    Dot Guest

    Dot wrote:

    > Right. Unless you're familiar with the place names and mtn sizes, it's
    > hard to relate sometimes. At times, I felt like I was reading something
    > like Robert Service, in some respects.
    >

    Something I should have added is that there's a happy medium. I read
    some of David Horton's PCT log in 2005 and found it full of numbers (at
    least it seemed that way and appears to have only been temporary). In
    contrast, Sue Norwood's AT web page seemed much more alive, conveying
    the feeling of the trail, but it also included some distances and
    elevations.

    Dot

    --
    "Success is different things to different people"
    -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
     
  15. Beach Bounty

    Beach Bounty Guest

    That what erks my chain.
    Going to 25,000 to 30,000 feet too run walk die live in.

    Sure if I was a movie star and getting paid and all else paid for trip
    too and bac. sure I would. so would every monkeyin this place.

    butt money not that easy for me.
    if I wanted to fix it I could go to the U>P> in michigan were they get
    25 - 30 feet of snow every year.
    sept I would have 2 legs, not 1 leg and a metal one like that news
    reporter here did last year. we all know global warming here and weather
    wind too is bader.

    42°N,83°W 90°N,180° 90°lat,
    3rd planet from the Sun.
    Milky Way, Orion arm.
    U.S.A., Michigan. west of Port Huron
    Bottum of Lake Huron.
     
  16. Tim Downie

    Tim Downie Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    > I've used yaktrax in combination with regular running shoes
    > usccesfully
    > for running on snow & ice.
    >
    > Must be a lighter option than snow shoes and/or crampons surely.
    >
    > review here:
    > http://ultrarunner.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=55&Itemid=147


    I can't see those providing you with the necessary traction on an icy
    mountain top however. I think there are some situations where there are no
    substitutes for full crampons if you don't want to go sliding to your doom.

    Tim
     
  17. Tony S.

    Tony S. Guest

    "Tim Downie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > [email protected] wrote:
    > > I've used yaktrax in combination with regular running shoes
    > > usccesfully
    > > for running on snow & ice.
    > >
    > > Must be a lighter option than snow shoes and/or crampons surely.
    > >
    > > review here:
    > >

    http://ultrarunner.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=55&Itemid
    =147
    >
    > I can't see those providing you with the necessary traction on an icy
    > mountain top however. I think there are some situations where there are

    no
    > substitutes for full crampons if you don't want to go sliding to your

    doom.
    >
    > Tim


    He definitely needed crampons! But for sure IMO snowshoes would have
    helped, even on the ups when he was sinking in up to his waist - and
    definitely for the downs.

    -Tony
     
  18. Dot

    Dot Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    > I've used yaktrax in combination with regular running shoes usccesfully
    > for running on snow & ice.
    >
    > Must be a lighter option than snow shoes and/or crampons surely.
    >
    > review here:
    > http://ultrarunner.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=55&Itemid=147
    >


    I have both the original yaktrax and the pro - both are left in my
    closet for the most part. In my experience they are worse than no
    traction device at all on ice. They don't have anything sharp on them to
    penetrate ice. They also elevate your normal tread above the ice, so the
    only thing in contact with the ice is those smooth coils as I go sliding
    downhill. They're ok for snow, and I've used them there, but they're
    dangerous on ice, esp. the pro model. My experience is consistent with
    many other runners.

    If it's icy, I tend to use Icejoggers (GetAGrip) since their studs hold
    somewhat like car studs. The spikes aren't so tall that they're
    uncomfortable to wear. Easy on / easy off for parking lots also.

    If it's mixed snow and ice and things in between, I use Stabilicer
    sports - a screw shoe bottom that you can strap on. They also use a soft
    rubber that protrudes between the spikes, so that provides additional
    traction. (I believe some NEOS overshoes now come with these stabilicer
    studs built in.) They are much harder to put on than the ice joggers,
    and they really need to improve that part of the design. On continuous
    hard ice, I find these too aggressive and my shins usually end up
    hurting, which is why I use the Icejoggers in those cases. I think the
    screws protrude more than regular screw shoes. But if the whole area is
    encased in ice, I just don't bother anymore. It's not worth the
    additional recovery time.

    Many people use screw shoes, which would be much better than yaktrax,
    imho. I haven't tried them, but they're common here.
    http://www.skyrunner.com/screwshoe.htm

    I haven't tried them, but Kahtoolas are supposed to be a lightweight
    crampon for running deeper snow, maybe with ice underneath. Very
    aggressive, and they're pricey.

    Icebug running shoes are also available. I've heard some good comments
    about them, but I've also heard they're fairly stiff.

    But if you're on a 30% slope with a couple inches of solid ice, it's
    hard for any of these devices to provide enough traction for a safe run
    / hike up and especially down. On short slopes (say, 30 ft vertical or
    shorter), sometimes a *really* fast cadence with one of these can get
    you down in one piece.

    The ultra runners in Anchorage use ice axes and running crampons (not
    sure of brand) for some of their winter runs.

    Dot

    --
    "Success is different things to different people"
    -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
     
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