Another reason to avoid critical mass...

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Brent P, May 19, 2008.

  1. Brent P

    Brent P Guest

    Tags:


  2. Tom Keats

    Tom Keats Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Brent P <[email protected]> writes:
    >
    > http://articles.citypages.com/2008-05-14/news/moles-wanted/
    >
    >
    > Seems the old police and federal moles infiltrating groups and then
    > possibly starting violence is still alive and well.


    /Avoid/ Critical Mass?!

    Hell, it seems like we've gotta rush to its aid!

    At least in some backwards, carochial places.

    But it sounds more to me like you're trying to
    scare-off "upstart" cyclists from claiming our
    due space on the streets.

    I propose any infiltrators or moles or undercover guys at
    CM rides be inundated with much love and hugs 'n kisses.
    Leis and pookah shell necklaces might be a nice touch,
    too.

    I furthermore implore everyone to not use the distraction
    as an opportunity to boost rats' wallets or sidearms,
    while tossing them down storm sewer grates and replacing
    them in their pockets/holsters with curling irons, or
    Pez dispensers, or hash pipes, or fresh fruit.

    --
    Four dead in O-hi-o.
    I'm really at:
    tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
     
  3. Bob

    Bob Guest

    On May 19, 11:05 pm, Brent P <[email protected]>
    wrote:
    > http://articles.citypages.com/2008-05-14/news/moles-wanted/
    >
    > Seems the old police and federal moles infiltrating groups and then
    > possibly starting violence is still alive and well.


    That's one possibility. Another is that conspiracy theorists see
    conspiracies everywhere. What "Paul Carroll" told the reporter was
    that he'd been solicited to become an informant, to report possible
    criminal activities. The reporter, Matt Snyders, then stopped
    reporting and began to editorialize, implying that the use of
    informants must have some dark purpose behind it. That's actually
    rather funny since his entire story is based on the word of one person
    using a pseudonym. Law enforcement has a term for people matching that
    description. We call them confidential informants. Matt just calls
    them sources. That's the only difference. Well, that and we don't base
    an entire case on the unproven word of one pseudonymous source.

    Regards,
    Bob Hunt
     
  4. Brent P

    Brent P Guest

    On 2008-05-20, Tom Keats <[email protected]> wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > Brent P <[email protected]> writes:
    >>
    >> http://articles.citypages.com/2008-05-14/news/moles-wanted/
    >>
    >>
    >> Seems the old police and federal moles infiltrating groups and then
    >> possibly starting violence is still alive and well.


    > /Avoid/ Critical Mass?!
    > Hell, it seems like we've gotta rush to its aid!


    It was a bit of humor, because there are all sorts of reasons to avoid
    it that it didn't need government moles. Went over your head I
    suppose.

    > But it sounds more to me like you're trying to
    > scare-off "upstart" cyclists from claiming our
    > due space on the streets.


    Nice one there Tom. Still the same I see. Considering I have oh
    probably a few thousand posts defending a bicyclist's right to road,
    you're just well, full of shit.

    I propose Critical mass stop being assholes who run red signals and
    generally make asses of themselves by ignoring even the most basic
    rules of the roads, those rules that even allow bicyclists to use the
    same road system as other bicyclists. Like I posted a few weeks ago or
    so, I think it would be amusing to assert right of way (green signal)
    while bicycling as these critical massholes are running the red.
    Either their heads would asplode or they would just react with
    violence.
     
  5. Tom Keats

    Tom Keats Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Brent P <[email protected]> writes:
    >
    >> But it sounds more to me like you're trying to
    >> scare-off "upstart" cyclists from claiming our
    >> due space on the streets.

    >
    > Nice one there Tom. Still the same I see. Considering I have oh
    > probably a few thousand posts defending a bicyclist's right to road,
    > you're just well, full of shit.


    And you're cyclists' official spokesperson (in r.a.d.)

    Yeah, right.

    Go spread your FUD in your garden, where it belongs.

    --
    Beware the fifth column.
    I'm really at:
    tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
     
  6. Tom Keats

    Tom Keats Guest

    In article <[email protected]m>,
    Bob <[email protected]> writes:
    > On May 19, 11:05 pm, Brent P <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >> http://articles.citypages.com/2008-05-14/news/moles-wanted/
    >>
    >> Seems the old police and federal moles infiltrating groups and then
    >> possibly starting violence is still alive and well.

    > That's one possibility. Another is that conspiracy theorists see
    > conspiracies everywhere.


    Another possibility is that Brent simply wants to do his bit
    to kybosh Critical Mass because it pisses him off, personally.

    I don't completely agree with CM as a viable approach to
    cyclists' gaining recognition and respect as entitled
    street users, myself. I however do partially agree with it.

    In fact I now support it even more, because it's threatened.

    But whether or not one supports or doesn't support CM is
    IMO best left a personal choice, unaffected by propaganda
    x-posted from a car-driving NG to a bike-riding NG, with a
    subject line and content obviously intended to scare people.

    Actually I thought Brent was above such trollery.
    I'm disappointed and rather saddened.


    regards,
    Tom

    --
    Nothing is safe from me.
    I'm really at:
    tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
     
  7. Tom Keats

    Tom Keats Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Brent P <[email protected]> writes:
    > On 2008-05-20, Tom Keats <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> In article <[email protected]>,
    >> Brent P <[email protected]> writes:
    >>>
    >>> http://articles.citypages.com/2008-05-14/news/moles-wanted/
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Seems the old police and federal moles infiltrating groups and then
    >>> possibly starting violence is still alive and well.

    >
    >> /Avoid/ Critical Mass?!
    >> Hell, it seems like we've gotta rush to its aid!

    >
    > It was a bit of humor, because there are all sorts of reasons to avoid
    > it that it didn't need government moles. Went over your head I
    > suppose.


    Excuses -- Faah! Nischt gefloygen.

    Humour, eh? Nobody's laffin'.

    ....

    > I propose Critical mass stop being assholes who run red signals and
    > generally make asses of themselves by ignoring even the most basic
    > rules of the roads, those rules that even allow bicyclists to use the
    > same road system as other bicyclists. Like I posted a few weeks ago or
    > so, I think it would be amusing to assert right of way (green signal)


    ROW is always given; never taken.

    > while bicycling as these critical massholes are running the red.
    > Either their heads would asplode or they would just react with
    > violence.


    Your own reaction sounds pretty violent, itself.

    You're pretty mad at Critical Mass, aren't you?

    But I ask you to bear these thoughts in mind:

    wrt Critical Mass, we're talking about urban streets,
    not the open road. It's a completely different environment.

    Have you ever been a non-driver in a city, trying to get from
    A to B, but can't because of the steady stream of commuters
    transiting from their job in one suburb, to their home in another
    suberb, and they're just blasting through your neighbourhood
    and would knock you down like a bowling pin if you got in
    their way? In /your/ own bailywick? Critical Mass is a
    reaction against that selfishness. In its best incarnations,
    it transcends selfishness, while reminding drivers they can
    also transcend their own selfishness, and maybe cheer up
    a little.

    At its worst, Critical Mass is a mirror that reflects
    the behaviours of selfish people back at themselves.

    No wonder they get pissed off. Too bad those selfish
    people are too selfish to realize they're pissing off
    a bunch of other people too.

    Brent, I think you're a good and decent guy.
    <shrug> maybe a little too affected by car people,
    but maybe that can be remedied.

    The pissed-offedness you experience once a month
    by CM rides is the pissed-offedness we non-drivers
    experience ~daily~ as you drivers blithely steal our
    ROWs, and cut us off from where we need to go.

    But don't listen to me. I'm just full o' shit.

    Thank you for being you.


    cheers,
    Tom

    --
    Nothing is safe from me.
    I'm really at:
    tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
     
  8. Bob

    Bob Guest

    On May 20, 1:24 am, [email protected] (Tom Keats) wrote:

    > I don't completely agree with CM as a viable approach to
    > cyclists' gaining recognition and respect as entitled
    > street users, myself.  I however do partially agree with it.
    >
    > In fact I now support it even more, because it's threatened.


    Tom-
    Feel free to withold your support because there is no threat,
    certainly none was documented in the link Brent provided. Not only was
    C-M not mentioned in the alleged "news story" (I say alleged and
    punctuate "news story" because it wasn't news, just the
    unsubstantiated claims of a pseudonymous "source" accompanied some
    thinly veiled editorializing by the writer and the predictable outrage
    of a C-M attorney) but the *only* mention of bicycles in the "news"
    portion appeared in the first sentence-
    "Paul Carroll was riding his bike when his cell phone vibrated."
    One has to wonder. Since the pseudonymous source did NOT say C-M was
    one of the groups he was asked to mointor and report on, why did the
    writer go to that C-M attorney for a quote? Could it be he knew the
    attorney would be so predictably outraged? I smell a conspiracy. <g>
    If you want to support the groups supposedly being threatened, send a
    vegetarian dish to one of the unnamed "vegan potlucks" that *were*
    mentioned. ;-)

    Regards,
    Bob Hunt
     
  9. Brent P

    Brent P Guest

    On 2008-05-20, Tom Keats <[email protected]> wrote:

    > But whether or not one supports or doesn't support CM is
    > IMO best left a personal choice, unaffected by propaganda
    > x-posted from a car-driving NG to a bike-riding NG, with a
    > subject line and content obviously intended to scare people.


    Subject line to scare people? You are grasping at straws. That's not a
    scary subject line.

    > Actually I thought Brent was above such trollery.
    > I'm disappointed and rather saddened.


    LOL. Now you're going to pretend to understand years worth of my posts
    all of a sudden? At least you've exposed your own dishonesty now.
     
  10. N8N

    N8N Guest

    On May 20, 12:54 am, [email protected] (Tom Keats) wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    >         Brent P <[email protected]> writes:
    >
    >
    >
    > >http://articles.citypages.com/2008-05-14/news/moles-wanted/

    >
    > > Seems the old police and federal moles infiltrating groups and then
    > > possibly starting violence is still alive and well.

    >
    > /Avoid/ Critical Mass?!


    Yes, why avoid critical mass? After all, the best way to get people
    to see your point of view is to act like a complete dick and break a
    bunch of laws.

    nate
     
  11. Brent P

    Brent P Guest

    On 2008-05-20, Tom Keats <[email protected]> wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > Brent P <[email protected]> writes:
    >>
    >>> But it sounds more to me like you're trying to
    >>> scare-off "upstart" cyclists from claiming our
    >>> due space on the streets.

    >>
    >> Nice one there Tom. Still the same I see. Considering I have oh
    >> probably a few thousand posts defending a bicyclist's right to road,
    >> you're just well, full of shit.

    >
    > And you're cyclists' official spokesperson (in r.a.d.)
    > Yeah, right.


    LOl. Still making stuff up. You replied to me and made a claim about
    what I was 'trying to' do. It's not my fault you didn't rub two brain
    cells together before spewing.

    > Go spread your FUD in your garden, where it belongs.


    aww... poor baby.
     
  12. Brent P

    Brent P Guest

    On 2008-05-20, Tom Keats <[email protected]> wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > Brent P <[email protected]> writes:
    >> On 2008-05-20, Tom Keats <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>> In article <[email protected]>,
    >>> Brent P <[email protected]> writes:
    >>>>
    >>>> http://articles.citypages.com/2008-05-14/news/moles-wanted/
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Seems the old police and federal moles infiltrating groups and then
    >>>> possibly starting violence is still alive and well.

    >>
    >>> /Avoid/ Critical Mass?!
    >>> Hell, it seems like we've gotta rush to its aid!

    >>
    >> It was a bit of humor, because there are all sorts of reasons to avoid
    >> it that it didn't need government moles. Went over your head I
    >> suppose.

    >
    > Excuses -- Faah! Nischt gefloygen.
    >
    > Humour, eh? Nobody's laffin'.


    I takes you two posts to do this?

    > ...
    >
    >> I propose Critical mass stop being assholes who run red signals and
    >> generally make asses of themselves by ignoring even the most basic
    >> rules of the roads, those rules that even allow bicyclists to use the
    >> same road system as other bicyclists. Like I posted a few weeks ago or
    >> so, I think it would be amusing to assert right of way (green signal)


    > ROW is always given; never taken.


    If that's the case, then might makes right and motorists need not give
    right of way and just use the size of their vehicles to run those on
    smaller ones off the road or run red signals in front of them, etc. You
    didn't really think that out did you?

    >> while bicycling as these critical massholes are running the red.
    >> Either their heads would asplode or they would just react with
    >> violence.


    > Your own reaction sounds pretty violent, itself.


    LOL.... it's violent to want to go on green instead of sitting there
    waiting for a bunch of asshats.

    > You're pretty mad at Critical Mass, aren't you?


    No. Just tired of asshats like CM, wrong way riders, red light runners,
    gutter passers etc who piss off other people who then, when they see a
    lone bicyclist take out their frustations on that lone bicyclist. It's a
    group that makes things worse, not better.

    > But I ask you to bear these thoughts in mind:


    > wrt Critical Mass, we're talking about urban streets,
    > not the open road. It's a completely different environment.


    Yeah, it's an environment where timing green signals is important,
    especially to a bicyclist, otherwise he ends up stopping every few
    hundred feet!

    > Have you ever been a non-driver in a city, trying to get from
    > A to B, but can't because of the steady stream of commuters
    > transiting from their job in one suburb, to their home in another
    > suberb, and they're just blasting through your neighbourhood
    > and would knock you down like a bowling pin if you got in
    > their way? In /your/ own bailywick?


    I've ridden in chicago and suburban chicago since I could ride a
    bicycle. I got my first adult sized bicycle in 1982. That's 26 years of
    urban and suburban street riding. So, give up the stupid argument that
    because I also drive a car I don't know what's it like to bike.

    Another amusing thing about CM's idiotcy is that they go around pissing
    off drivers in downtown chicago, in the loop. That's the most bicycle
    friendly part of this area IMO because traffic speeds are bicycle
    speeds. Hell I've cruised in the left lane pasing traffic to my right
    keeping up with the car in front of me in the loop for blocks on end and
    had no problems from drivers.

    > Critical Mass is a
    > reaction against that selfishness. In its best incarnations,
    > it transcends selfishness, while reminding drivers they can
    > also transcend their own selfishness, and maybe cheer up
    > a little.


    See here you go again slipping into this 'us vs. them' crapola. Here's
    the thing Tom, your critical massholes aren't making conditions better.
    I've had drivers try to knock me off the road or ignore my left turn
    signal and pass me on the left and other asshattery and you know how
    they justify their actions to me when I catch up to them? They justify
    it with 'you bicycle riders don't follow the law' type bullshit. So,
    here's a clue, when you purposely go out and decide to take revenge on
    the few motorists who are a problem by pissing off anyone who happens to
    be driving all you accomplish is to make more motorists who are going to
    be a problem to bicyclists. It's basically GWB's offical war-on-terror
    idea that by bombing people, by killing civilians and making a mess of
    people's lives in general that's going to get them to stop being
    terrorists. In reality it pisses people off who had no axe to grind and
    causes them to pick up the fight.

    > At its worst, Critical Mass is a mirror that reflects
    > the behaviours of selfish people back at themselves.


    No, what that is doing is pissing off people by their choice of vehicle.
    They aren't mirror to the individuals that being a mirror to is
    effective. That CM behavior gives justification to those drivers that
    are a problem and then adds more to their ranks when drivers who weren't
    a problem mirror CM back to every bicyclist they see.

    > No wonder they get pissed off. Too bad those selfish
    > people are too selfish to realize they're pissing off
    > a bunch of other people too.


    What about the driver like me who is a bicyclist too? What about the
    driver who has always respected bicyclists right to the road? Why piss
    them off? Because they drive?

    So what happens when these drivers who weren't doing wrong towards
    bicyclists decide to 'mirror' CM's behavior to anyone on a bicycle? What
    then? I've encountered those people on the road. They use the same
    reasoning you give for critical mass's behavior.

    > Brent, I think you're a good and decent guy.
    ><shrug> maybe a little too affected by car people,
    > but maybe that can be remedied.


    I like cars and bicycles. Sorry that shorts out your circuits. I drive
    and bike and follow the rules of right of way with each.

    > The pissed-offedness you experience once a month
    > by CM rides is the pissed-offedness we non-drivers
    > experience ~daily~ as you drivers blithely steal our
    > ROWs, and cut us off from where we need to go.


    I bike a good deal Tom. You keep forgeting that. I don't gutter pass. I
    don't run red signals, I even signal. I also assert my right of way. I
    realized pissing off people just because they drove was the height of
    stupidity, but then people like you keep doing just that.

    If you really want to get back at those drivers who make life miserable
    for bicyclists for sport, the ones that are the problem, without turning
    other drivers to their ranks, ride 100% to the vehicle code. Simple as
    that. It pisses them off and they have nothing to argue with. Plus no
    collateral damage.

    > But don't listen to me. I'm just full o' shit.


    Silly me, I don't want more drivers gunning for a lone bicyclist because
    some group of riders pissed them off.
     
  13. Jym Dyer

    Jym Dyer Guest

    Brent P writes:

    > I propose Critical mass stop being assholes who run red
    > signals and generally make asses of themselves by ignoring
    > even the most basic rules of the roads, those rules that
    > even allow bicyclists to [yada yada yada] ...


    =v= Same old same old. *Yawn!*

    =v= Proposals work better when they're not based on false
    presuppositions, and also when they don't call people names.
    Despite the occasional media-exaggerated incidents of road
    rage (things that happen the other 353 days of the year, too),
    Critical Mass has continued to thrive for 15 years and has
    spread to over 400 locations worldwide.
    <_Jym_>

    P.S.: Your ongoing "Critical Mas is blah blah blah" tirades
    have nothing to do with the news item that you posted.
     
  14. Jym Dyer

    Jym Dyer Guest

    http://articles.citypages.com/2008-05-14/news/moles-wanted/

    >> Seems the old police and federal moles infiltrating groups
    >> and then possibly starting violence is still alive and well.

    > /Avoid/ Critical Mass?!
    > Hell, it seems like we've gotta rush to its aid!


    =v= Exactly right. If one thing good came out of the NYPD's
    attack on bicyclists during the 2004 RNC, it was the great
    outpouring of support from some of the best people in their
    fields: from civil rights lawyers to Pulitzer-prize winners
    to moviemakers and the many other creative talents who live
    in New YorK City.

    =v= The NYPD got a pile of "anti-terrorist" money and nasty
    toys in 2004, which they've used to harrass dissenters with ever
    since. The Minneapolis police has already shown a particular
    tendency to misuse their toys as well. You can support their
    CM's current legal struggle here:

    http://cmsupport.wordpress.com/

    <_Jym_>
     
  15. Jym Dyer

    Jym Dyer Guest

    > Not only was C-M not mentioned in the alleged "news story" (I
    > say alleged and punctuate "news story" because it wasn't news,
    > just the unsubstantiated claims of a pseudonymous "source"
    > accompanied some thinly veiled editorializing by the writer
    > and the predictable outrage of a C-M attorney) but the *only*
    > mention of bicycles in the "news" portion appeared in the
    > first sentence ...


    =v= Given the nature of the meeting under discussion, there can
    only be a sole unsubstantiated claim for it. His story can be
    found in slightly different form by a web search for "vegan
    potluck." The lawyer is part of the National Lawyers Guild,
    not "a CM attorney," whatever that's supposed to mean.

    =v= The article did mention CM later on, in particular the role
    of _agents_provocateur_ in the August 2007 Minneapolis ride,
    though it failed to point out that there are multiple sources
    corroborrating that information. It also mentioned videotaped
    evidence of one such infiltrator in the New York City ride; in
    fact there are mulitple videotapes of multiple such incidents.
    <_Jym_>
     
  16. Brent P

    Brent P Guest

    On 2008-05-20, Jym Dyer <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Brent P writes:
    >
    >> I propose Critical mass stop being assholes who run red
    >> signals and generally make asses of themselves by ignoring
    >> even the most basic rules of the roads, those rules that
    >> even allow bicyclists to [yada yada yada] ...

    >
    >=v= Same old same old. *Yawn!*
    >
    >=v= Proposals work better when they're not based on false
    > presuppositions, and also when they don't call people names.
    > Despite the occasional media-exaggerated incidents of road
    > rage (things that happen the other 353 days of the year, too),
    > Critical Mass has continued to thrive for 15 years and has
    > spread to over 400 locations worldwide.


    Pissing off drivers world wide... It's classic GWB diplomacy. Anger
    everyone that looks like your enemy to get your enemy to stop doing bad
    things. Result = more enemy. Endless war. The Jesse Jackson theory of
    activism.

    > P.S.: Your ongoing "Critical Mas is blah blah blah" tirades
    > have nothing to do with the news item that you posted.


    There might be a whole half dozen threads I've been in regarding CM over
    the last decade and this is the only one I started... just a tad bit of
    exaggeration there.
     
  17. In article <[email protected]>,
    Bill Sornson <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >That why you DELETED the rest of what Bob wrote? The article DID NOT
    >MENTION C-M!


    Yes, it does. Third paragraph from the bottom.

    >(Just checked to make sure. Whole piece seems a little /too/
    >blatant; cops/feds wouldn't be so cavalier.)


    As long as people like you keep believing that, their very audacity is
    their protection.
    --
    There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
    result in a fully-depreciated one.
     
  18. Bill Sornson

    Bill Sornson Guest

    Matthew T. Russotto wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > Bill Sornson <[email protected]> wrote:

    {MORE COMPULSIVE OVER-SNIPPING!}

    >> That why you DELETED the rest of what Bob wrote? The article DID NOT
    >> MENTION C-M!


    > Yes, it does. Third paragraph from the bottom.


    Now when I click on the link it's gone, but I'll take your word for it.
    Still, as Bob said (before it was censored repeatedly), the article wasn't
    /about/ CM at all.

    >> (Just checked to make sure. Whole piece seems a little /too/
    >> blatant; cops/feds wouldn't be so cavalier.)


    > As long as people like you keep believing that, their very audacity is
    > their protection.


    "People like you" LOL So the cops just happened to call some perp and say,
    hey, we want you to spy on so & so months from now.

    Yeah, right.

    BS (apparent)
     
  19. landotter

    landotter Guest

    On May 20, 7:22 am, N8N <[email protected]> wrote:
    > On May 20, 12:54 am, [email protected] (Tom Keats) wrote:
    >
    > > In article <[email protected]>,
    > > Brent P <[email protected]> writes:

    >
    > > >http://articles.citypages.com/2008-05-14/news/moles-wanted/

    >
    > > > Seems the old police and federal moles infiltrating groups and then
    > > > possibly starting violence is still alive and well.

    >
    > > /Avoid/ Critical Mass?!

    >
    > Yes, why avoid critical mass? After all, the best way to get people
    > to see your point of view is to act like a complete dick and break a
    > bunch of laws.


    Westboro Baptist is growing by leaps and bounds!
     
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