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David Hansen
Guest
On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 03:12:46 -0700 someone who may be CoyoteBoy
<[email protected]> wrote this:-
>http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1015/1015958_police_support_officer_killed.html
Sad to hear.
I note that the police are reported to have used a very different
form of words than they usually do, "Police said a lorry was in
collision with the bike at traffic lights at the junction of
Atherton Road and Leigh Road in Hindley Green, Wigan, at 10am."
I wonder why people think to mention that someone who, "suffered
massive multiple injuries", was wearing a bit of plastic on his
head?
I also note, "The Health and Safety Executive have launched an
investigation because the volunteer was at work." which sounds very
unusual at they ran away from road crashes the last time they were
empire building.
--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
<[email protected]> wrote this:-
>http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1015/1015958_police_support_officer_killed.html
Sad to hear.
I note that the police are reported to have used a very different
form of words than they usually do, "Police said a lorry was in
collision with the bike at traffic lights at the junction of
Atherton Road and Leigh Road in Hindley Green, Wigan, at 10am."
I wonder why people think to mention that someone who, "suffered
massive multiple injuries", was wearing a bit of plastic on his
head?
I also note, "The Health and Safety Executive have launched an
investigation because the volunteer was at work." which sounds very
unusual at they ran away from road crashes the last time they were
empire building.
--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
T
Tony Raven
Guest
David Hansen <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
Very sad but it will be interesting to see how the police treat it when one
of their own is involved
>
> I note that the police are reported to have used a very different
> form of words than they usually do, "Police said a lorry was in
> collision with the bike at traffic lights at the junction of
> Atherton Road and Leigh Road in Hindley Green, Wigan, at 10am."
Whenever I see things like that these days I can't help thinking "Hot Fuzz"
>
> I wonder why people think to mention that someone who, "suffered
> massive multiple injuries", was wearing a bit of plastic on his
> head?
Because its magical properties have clearly failed in this instance
>
> I also note, "The Health and Safety Executive have launched an
> investigation because the volunteer was at work." which sounds very
> unusual at they ran away from road crashes the last time they were
> empire building.
>
Or from the health and safety aspects of lorries on the roads - a lot of
people have been killed by left turning lorries in London, many of them
linked to construction sites. If they ran over someone on the construction
site the HSE would be swarming all over them but because they do it just
outside on the roads, they are not interested because as they say "work-
related road safety is not a priority"
--
Tony
" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell
news:[email protected]:
Very sad but it will be interesting to see how the police treat it when one
of their own is involved
>
> I note that the police are reported to have used a very different
> form of words than they usually do, "Police said a lorry was in
> collision with the bike at traffic lights at the junction of
> Atherton Road and Leigh Road in Hindley Green, Wigan, at 10am."
Whenever I see things like that these days I can't help thinking "Hot Fuzz"
>
> I wonder why people think to mention that someone who, "suffered
> massive multiple injuries", was wearing a bit of plastic on his
> head?
Because its magical properties have clearly failed in this instance
>
> I also note, "The Health and Safety Executive have launched an
> investigation because the volunteer was at work." which sounds very
> unusual at they ran away from road crashes the last time they were
> empire building.
>
Or from the health and safety aspects of lorries on the roads - a lot of
people have been killed by left turning lorries in London, many of them
linked to construction sites. If they ran over someone on the construction
site the HSE would be swarming all over them but because they do it just
outside on the roads, they are not interested because as they say "work-
related road safety is not a priority"
--
Tony
" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell
I
Ian Smith
Guest
On Tue, 11 Sep, David Hansen <> wrote:
>
> I also note, "The Health and Safety Executive have launched an
> investigation because the volunteer was at work." which sounds very
> unusual at they ran away from road crashes the last time they were
> empire building.
They are paying more attention. They don't want to be responsible for
road crashes in general, but they are increasingly getting involved
in driving during working hours. There's been quite a bit of press
about it in the last six months to a year.
See, for example, their publication indg382 - which is sub-titled
"managing work-related road safety" and was published two years ago.
A google should find it, it's a free download from the hse web site
somewhere. All jolly stirring stuff (benefits of managing driving H&S
etc), and the caveat early on "Health and safety law does not apply to
commuting, unless the employee is travelling from their home to a
location which is not their usual place of work".
regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|
>
> I also note, "The Health and Safety Executive have launched an
> investigation because the volunteer was at work." which sounds very
> unusual at they ran away from road crashes the last time they were
> empire building.
They are paying more attention. They don't want to be responsible for
road crashes in general, but they are increasingly getting involved
in driving during working hours. There's been quite a bit of press
about it in the last six months to a year.
See, for example, their publication indg382 - which is sub-titled
"managing work-related road safety" and was published two years ago.
A google should find it, it's a free download from the hse web site
somewhere. All jolly stirring stuff (benefits of managing driving H&S
etc), and the caveat early on "Health and safety law does not apply to
commuting, unless the employee is travelling from their home to a
location which is not their usual place of work".
regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|
G
Graham Harrison
Guest
"David Hansen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 03:12:46 -0700 someone who may be CoyoteBoy
> <[email protected]> wrote this:-
>
>>http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1015/1015958_police_support_officer_killed.html
>
> Sad to hear.
>
> I note that the police are reported to have used a very different
> form of words than they usually do, "Police said a lorry was in
> collision with the bike at traffic lights at the junction of
> Atherton Road and Leigh Road in Hindley Green, Wigan, at 10am."
>
> I wonder why people think to mention that someone who, "suffered
> massive multiple injuries", was wearing a bit of plastic on his
> head?
>
> I also note, "The Health and Safety Executive have launched an
> investigation because the volunteer was at work." which sounds very
> unusual at they ran away from road crashes the last time they were
> empire building.
>
>
>
>
> --
> David Hansen, Edinburgh
> I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
> http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
Recently I met a PCSO who I'd guess was much the same age as the young man
who has been killed in Manchester. He was riding his (police) bicycle
through a subway which has clear "no cycling" signs at the entrances. When
I pointed this out to him he politely pointed out that it was getting dark
and he didn't have lights.
I had to ask myself how much training he had had in the use of a bicycle and
the extent to which I blamed him or the police force who had sent him out.
The point I'm trying to make is that if PCSOs are being sent out with just
their previously acquired knowledge of cycling I question their safety on
our roads.
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 03:12:46 -0700 someone who may be CoyoteBoy
> <[email protected]> wrote this:-
>
>>http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1015/1015958_police_support_officer_killed.html
>
> Sad to hear.
>
> I note that the police are reported to have used a very different
> form of words than they usually do, "Police said a lorry was in
> collision with the bike at traffic lights at the junction of
> Atherton Road and Leigh Road in Hindley Green, Wigan, at 10am."
>
> I wonder why people think to mention that someone who, "suffered
> massive multiple injuries", was wearing a bit of plastic on his
> head?
>
> I also note, "The Health and Safety Executive have launched an
> investigation because the volunteer was at work." which sounds very
> unusual at they ran away from road crashes the last time they were
> empire building.
>
>
>
>
> --
> David Hansen, Edinburgh
> I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
> http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
Recently I met a PCSO who I'd guess was much the same age as the young man
who has been killed in Manchester. He was riding his (police) bicycle
through a subway which has clear "no cycling" signs at the entrances. When
I pointed this out to him he politely pointed out that it was getting dark
and he didn't have lights.
I had to ask myself how much training he had had in the use of a bicycle and
the extent to which I blamed him or the police force who had sent him out.
The point I'm trying to make is that if PCSOs are being sent out with just
their previously acquired knowledge of cycling I question their safety on
our roads.
R
Rob Morley
Guest
In article <[email protected]>, Graham Harrison
[email protected] says...
> Recently I met a PCSO who I'd guess was much the same age as the young man
> who has been killed in Manchester. He was riding his (police) bicycle
> through a subway which has clear "no cycling" signs at the entrances. When
> I pointed this out to him he politely pointed out that it was getting dark
> and he didn't have lights.
>
> I had to ask myself how much training he had had in the use of a bicycle and
> the extent to which I blamed him or the police force who had sent him out.
>
> The point I'm trying to make is that if PCSOs are being sent out with just
> their previously acquired knowledge of cycling I question their safety on
> our roads.
>
I've seen some PCSOs looking pretty clueless on their bikes and thought
likewise.
[email protected] says...
> Recently I met a PCSO who I'd guess was much the same age as the young man
> who has been killed in Manchester. He was riding his (police) bicycle
> through a subway which has clear "no cycling" signs at the entrances. When
> I pointed this out to him he politely pointed out that it was getting dark
> and he didn't have lights.
>
> I had to ask myself how much training he had had in the use of a bicycle and
> the extent to which I blamed him or the police force who had sent him out.
>
> The point I'm trying to make is that if PCSOs are being sent out with just
> their previously acquired knowledge of cycling I question their safety on
> our roads.
>
I've seen some PCSOs looking pretty clueless on their bikes and thought
likewise.
T
Tony Raven
Guest
Ian Smith <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> See, for example, their publication indg382 - which is sub-titled
> "managing work-related road safety" and was published two years ago.
>
And see the page of their website linking to it which states "While HSE
will continue to promote sensible advice to employers, in line with its
workplace health and safety strategy to 2010 and beyond, work-related road
safety is not a priority for HSC/E."
http://213.212.77.20/roadsafety/index.htm
--
Tony
" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell
news:[email protected]:
>
> See, for example, their publication indg382 - which is sub-titled
> "managing work-related road safety" and was published two years ago.
>
And see the page of their website linking to it which states "While HSE
will continue to promote sensible advice to employers, in line with its
workplace health and safety strategy to 2010 and beyond, work-related road
safety is not a priority for HSC/E."
http://213.212.77.20/roadsafety/index.htm
--
Tony
" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell
?
_
Guest
On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:55:51 +0100, Graham Harrison wrote:
> "David Hansen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 03:12:46 -0700 someone who may be CoyoteBoy
>> <[email protected]> wrote this:-
>>
>>>http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1015/1015958_police_support_officer_killed.html
>>
>> Sad to hear.
>>
>> I note that the police are reported to have used a very different
>> form of words than they usually do, "Police said a lorry was in
>> collision with the bike at traffic lights at the junction of
>> Atherton Road and Leigh Road in Hindley Green, Wigan, at 10am."
>>
>> I wonder why people think to mention that someone who, "suffered
>> massive multiple injuries", was wearing a bit of plastic on his
>> head?
>>
>> I also note, "The Health and Safety Executive have launched an
>> investigation because the volunteer was at work." which sounds very
>> unusual at they ran away from road crashes the last time they were
>> empire building.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> David Hansen, Edinburgh
>> I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
>> http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
>
> Recently I met a PCSO who I'd guess was much the same age as the young man
> who has been killed in Manchester. He was riding his (police) bicycle
> through a subway which has clear "no cycling" signs at the entrances. When
> I pointed this out to him he politely pointed out that it was getting dark
> and he didn't have lights.
>
> I had to ask myself how much training he had had in the use of a bicycle and
> the extent to which I blamed him or the police force who had sent him out.
>
> The point I'm trying to make is that if PCSOs are being sent out with just
> their previously acquired knowledge of cycling I question their safety on
> our roads.
The above, verbatim, would be a suitable letter to the editor of the
Manchester Evening News.
> "David Hansen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 03:12:46 -0700 someone who may be CoyoteBoy
>> <[email protected]> wrote this:-
>>
>>>http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1015/1015958_police_support_officer_killed.html
>>
>> Sad to hear.
>>
>> I note that the police are reported to have used a very different
>> form of words than they usually do, "Police said a lorry was in
>> collision with the bike at traffic lights at the junction of
>> Atherton Road and Leigh Road in Hindley Green, Wigan, at 10am."
>>
>> I wonder why people think to mention that someone who, "suffered
>> massive multiple injuries", was wearing a bit of plastic on his
>> head?
>>
>> I also note, "The Health and Safety Executive have launched an
>> investigation because the volunteer was at work." which sounds very
>> unusual at they ran away from road crashes the last time they were
>> empire building.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> David Hansen, Edinburgh
>> I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
>> http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
>
> Recently I met a PCSO who I'd guess was much the same age as the young man
> who has been killed in Manchester. He was riding his (police) bicycle
> through a subway which has clear "no cycling" signs at the entrances. When
> I pointed this out to him he politely pointed out that it was getting dark
> and he didn't have lights.
>
> I had to ask myself how much training he had had in the use of a bicycle and
> the extent to which I blamed him or the police force who had sent him out.
>
> The point I'm trying to make is that if PCSOs are being sent out with just
> their previously acquired knowledge of cycling I question their safety on
> our roads.
The above, verbatim, would be a suitable letter to the editor of the
Manchester Evening News.
E
elyob
Guest
On 11 Sep, 11:12, CoyoteBoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1015/1015958_police_sup...
"It is believed that the driver of the wagon has not been seriously
injured."
No sh*t Sherlock. Lorry weighing 15 tons runs over a human being, I
suspect the chap nicely cocooned about 10 metres away will be just
fine. Upset maybe, but certainly not hurt.
> http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1015/1015958_police_sup...
"It is believed that the driver of the wagon has not been seriously
injured."
No sh*t Sherlock. Lorry weighing 15 tons runs over a human being, I
suspect the chap nicely cocooned about 10 metres away will be just
fine. Upset maybe, but certainly not hurt.
G
Graham Harrison
Guest
"_" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:55:51 +0100, Graham Harrison wrote:
>
>> "David Hansen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 03:12:46 -0700 someone who may be CoyoteBoy
>>> <[email protected]> wrote this:-
>>>
>>>>http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1015/1015958_police_support_officer_killed.html
>>>
>>> Sad to hear.
>>>
>>> I note that the police are reported to have used a very different
>>> form of words than they usually do, "Police said a lorry was in
>>> collision with the bike at traffic lights at the junction of
>>> Atherton Road and Leigh Road in Hindley Green, Wigan, at 10am."
>>>
>>> I wonder why people think to mention that someone who, "suffered
>>> massive multiple injuries", was wearing a bit of plastic on his
>>> head?
>>>
>>> I also note, "The Health and Safety Executive have launched an
>>> investigation because the volunteer was at work." which sounds very
>>> unusual at they ran away from road crashes the last time they were
>>> empire building.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> David Hansen, Edinburgh
>>> I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
>>> http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
>>
>> Recently I met a PCSO who I'd guess was much the same age as the young
>> man
>> who has been killed in Manchester. He was riding his (police) bicycle
>> through a subway which has clear "no cycling" signs at the entrances.
>> When
>> I pointed this out to him he politely pointed out that it was getting
>> dark
>> and he didn't have lights.
>>
>> I had to ask myself how much training he had had in the use of a bicycle
>> and
>> the extent to which I blamed him or the police force who had sent him
>> out.
>>
>> The point I'm trying to make is that if PCSOs are being sent out with
>> just
>> their previously acquired knowledge of cycling I question their safety on
>> our roads.
>
> The above, verbatim, would be a suitable letter to the editor of the
> Manchester Evening News.
Well, since the incident was in Berkshire I'm not sure the MEN is the
correct outlet. I had thought of the Chief Constable of Thames Valley, and
now I've moved to Somerset I think I might do that and also the Chief
Constable of Manchester.
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:55:51 +0100, Graham Harrison wrote:
>
>> "David Hansen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 03:12:46 -0700 someone who may be CoyoteBoy
>>> <[email protected]> wrote this:-
>>>
>>>>http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1015/1015958_police_support_officer_killed.html
>>>
>>> Sad to hear.
>>>
>>> I note that the police are reported to have used a very different
>>> form of words than they usually do, "Police said a lorry was in
>>> collision with the bike at traffic lights at the junction of
>>> Atherton Road and Leigh Road in Hindley Green, Wigan, at 10am."
>>>
>>> I wonder why people think to mention that someone who, "suffered
>>> massive multiple injuries", was wearing a bit of plastic on his
>>> head?
>>>
>>> I also note, "The Health and Safety Executive have launched an
>>> investigation because the volunteer was at work." which sounds very
>>> unusual at they ran away from road crashes the last time they were
>>> empire building.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> David Hansen, Edinburgh
>>> I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
>>> http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
>>
>> Recently I met a PCSO who I'd guess was much the same age as the young
>> man
>> who has been killed in Manchester. He was riding his (police) bicycle
>> through a subway which has clear "no cycling" signs at the entrances.
>> When
>> I pointed this out to him he politely pointed out that it was getting
>> dark
>> and he didn't have lights.
>>
>> I had to ask myself how much training he had had in the use of a bicycle
>> and
>> the extent to which I blamed him or the police force who had sent him
>> out.
>>
>> The point I'm trying to make is that if PCSOs are being sent out with
>> just
>> their previously acquired knowledge of cycling I question their safety on
>> our roads.
>
> The above, verbatim, would be a suitable letter to the editor of the
> Manchester Evening News.
Well, since the incident was in Berkshire I'm not sure the MEN is the
correct outlet. I had thought of the Chief Constable of Thames Valley, and
now I've moved to Somerset I think I might do that and also the Chief
Constable of Manchester.
J
On Sep 11, 3:19 pm, Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:
>>"managing work-related road safety" and was published two years ago.
>
> And see the page of their website linking to it which states "While HSE
> will continue to promote sensible advice to employers, in line with its
> workplace health and safety strategy to 2010 and beyond, work-related road
> safety is not a priority for HSC/E."
>
> http://213.212.77.20/roadsafety/index.htm
>
> --
> Tony
>
My reading of the press reports is that the Health and Safety
Executive are involved because the PCSO
was at work, not because the lorry driver who killed him was at
work. As Tony points out the HSE have run away from enforcing any of
their "work related road safety" code.
If they do their job properly the HSE investigators have to examine
the PCSO's employer's training, supervision, risk assessment and
monitoring systems. They should also examine the same factors for
the lorry driver's employers. A man has been killed at work - they
have to decide whether the Manchester Police (+directors) or
Blakeley's Waste Management (+directors) or both are liable to
prosecution for negligence or corporate manslaughter. Alternatively
they could do a wishy washy investigation and let everyone off.
The issues are quite clear, if the lorry driver had looked in his left
side mirror at the right time he would not have killed the cyclist.
The driver should be aware of the risks and possible outcomes of not
keeping a good lookout. The driver's employers should be able to show
that they have checked his competence and continued to monitor his
performance, providing extra training and instruction if needed. One
of the factors is to check whether the lorry was fitted with the
latest standard of mirrors to EU directive 2003/97 and if not, why
not. These mirrors make it easier for the driver to see around the
sides of his lorry, but not having them does not let him off the
responsibility for keeping a good look out.
In London (where half the cyclist deaths are caused by HGVs) there is
a small police transport unit whose members are also qualified as HSE
investigators. They visit dodgy lorry operators and ask to see all
their Health and Safety documentation, if it exists. They are trying
to clean up the act of the worst operators. They have yet to get
involved in a case during the investigation of a fatality but that may
come in the future. Maybe the death of PCSO Maclure will act as a
stimulus to get the different enforcement agencies working together as
they should.
--
Charlie Lloyd
>>"managing work-related road safety" and was published two years ago.
>
> And see the page of their website linking to it which states "While HSE
> will continue to promote sensible advice to employers, in line with its
> workplace health and safety strategy to 2010 and beyond, work-related road
> safety is not a priority for HSC/E."
>
> http://213.212.77.20/roadsafety/index.htm
>
> --
> Tony
>
My reading of the press reports is that the Health and Safety
Executive are involved because the PCSO
was at work, not because the lorry driver who killed him was at
work. As Tony points out the HSE have run away from enforcing any of
their "work related road safety" code.
If they do their job properly the HSE investigators have to examine
the PCSO's employer's training, supervision, risk assessment and
monitoring systems. They should also examine the same factors for
the lorry driver's employers. A man has been killed at work - they
have to decide whether the Manchester Police (+directors) or
Blakeley's Waste Management (+directors) or both are liable to
prosecution for negligence or corporate manslaughter. Alternatively
they could do a wishy washy investigation and let everyone off.
The issues are quite clear, if the lorry driver had looked in his left
side mirror at the right time he would not have killed the cyclist.
The driver should be aware of the risks and possible outcomes of not
keeping a good lookout. The driver's employers should be able to show
that they have checked his competence and continued to monitor his
performance, providing extra training and instruction if needed. One
of the factors is to check whether the lorry was fitted with the
latest standard of mirrors to EU directive 2003/97 and if not, why
not. These mirrors make it easier for the driver to see around the
sides of his lorry, but not having them does not let him off the
responsibility for keeping a good look out.
In London (where half the cyclist deaths are caused by HGVs) there is
a small police transport unit whose members are also qualified as HSE
investigators. They visit dodgy lorry operators and ask to see all
their Health and Safety documentation, if it exists. They are trying
to clean up the act of the worst operators. They have yet to get
involved in a case during the investigation of a fatality but that may
come in the future. Maybe the death of PCSO Maclure will act as a
stimulus to get the different enforcement agencies working together as
they should.
--
Charlie Lloyd
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