Another Take on Lance and Doping (Oh God..Here We Go Again)



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OldFogie

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I personally have no idea whether Lance is doping or not; But I am pretty sure that doping is not the reason he has won 6 TDFs. If doping was such an incredible performance booster, then a large percentage of the Peloton would be doping as well. Maybe they are; regardless, if you are one of the critics who bashes Lance Armstrong for doping, you had better be ready to condemn the whole sport itself.

There are several things that, however, set Lance Armstrong apart from the rest of his peers. Anybody who has ever played competitive sports at virtually any level, understands that the mental aspect of your "game" is as important if not more important than the physical aspect. Lance's near-death fight with cancer surely would classify as a focusing-event in his life. It seems to me that this would give a man incredible drive and determination. The kind of drive and determination that enables Lance to train harder and longer than virtually anyone else in his sport.

How Lance trains and rides is another factor. It appears that Lance bashers always overlook the fact that Armstrong does things differently than anyother rider on the tour. Smaller gears, greater cadence, resulting in faster speed. Now I will admit that I am not a cyclist (alas old ages and bad knees have slowed this old body) but for 30 years I have enjoyed watching cycling and have especially enjoyed the TDF. Maybe this riding style is a reason, seems likely to me. (Now I know I am stating the obvious, but after reading some of the posts on Lance it appears that some people miss the obvious).

Although I will admit that I do not have the cycling background that some members of this forum posess, I am well versed in human-nature. What scares me most about some members of this forum is the same thing that scares me regarding our political atmosphere here in the United States. It appears that some members do not look at facts and then develop an opinion. Instead they develop an opinion and then find facts that will support that opinion, regardless of how tenuous, unsubstatiated, or outright illogical. There is no room to consider another point of view...hell that would be admitting some kind of personal defeat....what shame. Basically, you will support and defend your cause regardless of the information presented..or inpite of. Hell, I think Europe got into a little trouble a few years back, as I recall with that kind of fanaticism. The blatant bile spewed in this forum over such an innocuous topic is disturbing and to me represents a bigger problem than any doping allegations. I mean really, what has imbalanced some of you to such a degree? Sorry this is long-winded, old folks tend to go on and on..haha.

P.S. I am not getting into a pissing contest with any of the above mentioned type of individuals..so don't bother.
 
Oldfogie:

You probably want to ignore the $10 Billion dollars of revenue that Amgen Corporation earns for EPO royalties---from Epogen & AraNesp and from Johnson & Johnson's Eprex deal.

These were---and still are basic drugs used by Tour de France athletes. Take the dope away and not only will no TDF victories be recorded--no finishes would either. DNS!

I know it may seem like pissing---but HBOCs are wholly undectable in urine. Growth hormones, insulin, testosterone/clomid, etc...

As we ramp up for #7, look for police doping raids to help better explain the trauma medicine protocols.

In 1998 we had Festina & TVM. In 2004 we had Lance's teammate Tyler Hamilton and Champions Johan Museeuw, Oscar Camenzind and David Millar going down with EPO abuses.

We also saw Marco Pantani's death---the last man to win a TDF not named Lance.

We also had the massive Ausralian AIS doping scandal---still being covered up.

See the irony?


OldFogie said:
I personally have no idea whether Lance is doping or not; But I am pretty sure that doping is not the reason he has won 6 TDFs. If doping was such an incredible performance booster, then a large percentage of the Peloton would be doping as well. Maybe they are; regardless, if you are one of the critics who bashes Lance Armstrong for doping, you had better be ready to condemn the whole sport itself.

There are several things that, however, set Lance Armstrong apart from the rest of his peers. Anybody who has ever played competitive sports at virtually any level, understands that the mental aspect of your "game" is as important if not more important than the physical aspect. Lance's near-death fight with cancer surely would classify as a focusing-event in his life. It seems to me that this would give a man incredible drive and determination. The kind of drive and determination that enables Lance to train harder and longer than virtually anyone else in his sport.

How Lance trains and rides is another factor. It appears that Lance bashers always overlook the fact that Armstrong does things differently than anyother rider on the tour. Smaller gears, greater cadence, resulting in faster speed. Now I will admit that I am not a cyclist (alas old ages and bad knees have slowed this old body) but for 30 years I have enjoyed watching cycling and have especially enjoyed the TDF. Maybe this riding style is a reason, seems likely to me. (Now I know I am stating the obvious, but after reading some of the posts on Lance it appears that some people miss the obvious).

Although I will admit that I do not have the cycling background that some members of this forum posess, I am well versed in human-nature. What scares me most about some members of this forum is the same thing that scares me regarding our political atmosphere here in the United States. It appears that some members do not look at facts and then develop an opinion. Instead they develop an opinion and then find facts that will support that opinion, regardless of how tenuous, unsubstatiated, or outright illogical. There is no room to consider another point of view...hell that would be admitting some kind of personal defeat....what shame. Basically, you will support and defend your cause regardless of the information presented..or inpite of. Hell, I think Europe got into a little trouble a few years back, as I recall with that kind of fanaticism. The blatant bile spewed in this forum over such an innocuous topic is disturbing and to me represents a bigger problem than any doping allegations. I mean really, what has imbalanced some of you to such a degree? Sorry this is long-winded, old folks tend to go on and on..haha.

P.S. I am not getting into a pissing contest with any of the above mentioned type of individuals..so don't bother.
 
I don't really know if Lance is doping or not. Much as I dislike the guy, for the good of the sport I hope he isn't. However, nothing would please me more this year than to see him get stuffed at the TdF, preferably by Jan. Although you may not be able to put down his success to cheating, he is an arrogant bully. Surviving cancer does not make you a saint. Yes his acheivements are outstanding but much of his success is down to his team (who have had to forgo any personal ambitions) and dominating attitude. Comments about other cyclists, especially Jan and his behaviour last year leave a sour taste. Yes, Jan has made plenty of mistakes and not prepared as he should but he is human, not a machine like Lance.































http://www.cyclingforums.com/t467644.html
 
Oke alibat next time discuss this in the doping forum. There this thread belongs. Have a nice chat with flyer........



alibat said:
I don't really know if Lance is doping or not. Much as I dislike the guy, for the good of the sport I hope he isn't. However, nothing would please me more this year than to see him get stuffed at the TdF, preferably by Jan. Although you may not be able to put down his success to cheating, he is an arrogant bully. Surviving cancer does not make you a saint. Yes his acheivements are outstanding but much of his success is down to his team (who have had to forgo any personal ambitions) and dominating attitude. Comments about other cyclists, especially Jan and his behaviour last year leave a sour taste. Yes, Jan has made plenty of mistakes and not prepared as he should but he is human, not a machine like Lance.
 
Sorry if I've posted my comment in the wrong place. Please forgive me as I'm a newbie to this forum. It was just something I wanted to get off my chest, being sick of all the Lance worship around. By the way, I can't find the doping forum. Where is it?
 
Just follow my threads and you'll be ok ! :) :) :) :) :)

alibat said:
Sorry if I've posted my comment in the wrong place. Please forgive me as I'm a newbie to this forum. It was just something I wanted to get off my chest, being sick of all the Lance worship around. By the way, I can't find the doping forum. Where is it?
 
alibat said:
Sorry if I've posted my comment in the wrong place. Please forgive me as I'm a newbie to this forum. It was just something I wanted to get off my chest, being sick of all the Lance worship around. By the way, I can't find the doping forum. Where is it?

it's been closed down.

and it's nice that someone else is annoyed with the lance armstrong personality cult in cycling today.
 
Lol that's NOT the person you should be following haha.......just joking post along......btw armstrong is a controversial guy on this board. 1 side the hero-woreshippers other side the lance haters in the middle MJ



whiteboytrash said:
Just follow my threads and you'll be ok ! :) :) :) :) :)
 
MJ is the glue that keeps this forum together ! :cool:

MJtje said:
Lol that's NOT the person you should be following haha.......just joking post along......btw armstrong is a controversial guy on this board. 1 side the hero-woreshippers other side the lance haters in the middle MJ
 
whiteboytrash said:
MJ is the glue that keeps this forum together ! :cool:

Here is the best refutation of accusations of doping.

Physiological studies released tracking Lance in the University of Texas lab over the years when he improved the most, 1991-1999. Recorded data in and out of season. VO2Max around 80-85, power outputs, lung volumes the whole bit. Read the article in full which is linked at the above site. It is good stuff. He is just head and shoulders above the rest AND works harder. End of story. Needless to say, they do RBC counts etc while measuring his blood lactate and all. So just stick your weird AMgen theories up where they belong. Amgen makes millions because anemia from renal disease and cancer is so widespread, there is no money to be made on a few hundred cyclists no matter what they pay. American insurance companies are making the millions for AMgen.

Back to Lance who IS gonna win #7.:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/06/050615061032.htm
 
read his books his pain threshold is a little higher than most and his motivation a lot higher
 
Dead Star said:
damn, where's Flyer when we need him ;)

I was going to publish undeniable evidence that Lance is not doping but did not want to be labled a murderer.
Flyer would kill himself 20 seconds after reading it.
 
MJtje said:
The book is called lance armstrong's war sorry!

Looks interesting Guy looks like he may have an axe (bike) to grind

Ill have a quid with anyone Lance wins this TDF and they dont lay a doping glove on him. :p
 
Flyer said:
In 1998 we had Festina & TVM. In 2004 we had Lance's teammate Tyler Hamilton and Champions Johan Museeuw, Oscar Camenzind and David Millar going down with EPO abuses.

We also saw Marco Pantani's death---the last man to win a TDF not named Lance.


See the irony?

In 2004, Hamilton was not Lance's room mate, and he didn't "go down on" EPO.
Pantani's death was not attributable to EPO.

See the flaws in your argument?
 
hombredesubaru said:
Here is the best refutation of accusations of doping.

Physiological studies released tracking Lance in the University of Texas lab over the years when he improved the most, 1991-1999. Recorded data in and out of season. VO2Max around 80-85, power outputs, lung volumes the whole bit. Read the article in full which is linked at the above site. It is good stuff. He is just head and shoulders above the rest AND works harder. End of story. Needless to say, they do RBC counts etc while measuring his blood lactate and all. So just stick your weird AMgen theories up where they belong. Amgen makes millions because anemia from renal disease and cancer is so widespread, there is no money to be made on a few hundred cyclists no matter what they pay. American insurance companies are making the millions for AMgen.

Back to Lance who IS gonna win #7.:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/06/050615061032.htm
This would be a valid argument if the scientists had taken (say) ten other top-class cyclists and performed the same tests over the same period of time in order to do a comparison... As impressive these results may be there is no benchmark to compare them against so your claim is completely unjustifiable. This doesn't prove that Lance is doping but in no way does it prove that he isn't... Oh and also they didn't test him for PEDs either... They just recorded the numbers...
 
alibat:

Warmest welcome.

No worries you at the correct post. When your doctor is convicted for malpractice and abuse of a pharmacist for doping athletes illegally----Lance and doping are linked tighter than a Trek bicycle bottom bracket.

Hey, it was Lance's call to spend 10 years with an EPO blood booster expert, not mine.

Our Amgen salesman DaibloScott tells us that EPO, Epogen, AraNesp (Johan Museeuw), Eprex (David Millar's), C.E.R.A (Roche's not approved), etc.... have never killed anyone. And that Tyler Hamilton has never tested positive for EPO (few have btw:) However, Tyler's former USPO doctor disagrees. Prentice Stephen says Tyler requested anemia help in the Tour of Swiss. Prentice knows more than Diablo or me on the subject of Tyler and on the common anemia demands of stage racing.

EPO deaths? Maybe, maybe not. Gotta get the blood thinners too.

More importantly, Lance's very own trainer told the world in 1995 that EPO was no more dangerous than Orange Juice.

I drink OJ. Maybe AraNesp would be healthy and therapuetic too?

Anyway, lots of cyclist use and abuse EPO--even non-professions if you believe that. But that's a fact.

But EPO is for the common man now. The big boys should have better meds now, eh???


alibat said:
Sorry if I've posted my comment in the wrong place. Please forgive me as I'm a newbie to this forum. It was just something I wanted to get off my chest, being sick of all the Lance worship around. By the way, I can't find the doping forum. Where is it?
 
No theory. The cold hard facts of how the doping business creates new revenues.

I hope you understand that all doping products are tested on otherwise healthy humans first-----even before an application for clinical trials is filed.

Athletes----especially endurance athletes are the obvious test subjects for drug researchers----this is 10-20 before any revenue can be collected.

Amgen discovered EPO while working out how to make chickens grow FASTER. Sort of a synthetic growth hormone story.

Whilst fooling with proteins they found the Epoetin alfa in 1983.

The EPOGEN brand was approved for public sale in 1989.

That's super fast approval but still leaves six years of testing and debunks Greg Lemond's position that EPO did not exist during his winning years.

It most certainly did.

It was perfected under the Lance Armstrong era (1993-2000),---along with HBOCs and other products/methods. (Actovegin, Hemapure, PFC, RSR-13, CERA etc...)

So, it is athletes who are essential to Amgen and there partner Johnson & Johnson's sales. w/o research successes, no sick people can be doped.

Amgen's annual revenue from EPO 1983 was ZERO, in 2004 it was $10 Billion.

Theory or practice?


hombredesubaru said:
Here is the best refutation of accusations of doping.

Physiological studies released tracking Lance in the University of Texas lab over the years when he improved the most, 1991-1999. Recorded data in and out of season. VO2Max around 80-85, power outputs, lung volumes the whole bit. Read the article in full which is linked at the above site. It is good stuff. He is just head and shoulders above the rest AND works harder. End of story. Needless to say, they do RBC counts etc while measuring his blood lactate and all. So just stick your weird AMgen theories up where they belong. Amgen makes millions because anemia from renal disease and cancer is so widespread, there is no money to be made on a few hundred cyclists no matter what they pay. American insurance companies are making the millions for AMgen.

Back to Lance who IS gonna win #7.:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/06/050615061032.htm
 
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