Another Take on Lance and Doping (Oh God..Here We Go Again)

[Eldrack]

Just a practical point here.

Flyer can you please stop quoting everyones posts in yours. We have read their points and do not need a repeat copy sitting just below your post each time, makes the page quite long. By all means quote selectively from their posts so as to question their arguements but don't just block quote the whole thing for no apparent reason.

General point to everyone. Don't try and smoke and mirror everyone into believing your arguement. Base it on pure hard fact e.g Positive drug tests rather than purely circumstantial evidence. Don't endlessly repeat points by rephrasing them to give them a new shine. Here endeth the lesson on debating.

 

[whiteboytrash]

I completely agree with all those points and if you don’t believe then you’re a drug taker....

Just a practical point here.


Flyer can you please stop quoting everyones posts in yours. We have read their points and do not need a repeat copy sitting just below your post each time, makes the page quite long. By all means quote selectively from their posts so as to question their arguements but don't just block quote the whole thing for no apparent reason.

General point to everyone. Don't try and smoke and mirror everyone into believing your arguement. Base it on pure hard fact e.g Positive drug tests rather than purely circumstantial evidence. Don't endlessly repeat points by rephrasing them to give them a new shine. Here endeth the lesson on debating.

Just a practical point here.


Flyer can you please stop quoting everyones posts in yours. We have read their points and do not need a repeat copy sitting just below your post each time, makes the page quite long. By all means quote selectively from their posts so as to question their arguements but don't just block quote the whole thing for no apparent reason.

General point to everyone. Don't try and smoke and mirror everyone into believing your arguement. Base it on pure hard fact e.g Positive drug tests rather than purely circumstantial evidence. Don't endlessly repeat points by rephrasing them to give them a new shine. Here endeth the lesson on debating.

Just a practical point here.


Flyer can you please stop quoting everyones posts in yours. We have read their points and do not need a repeat copy sitting just below your post each time, makes the page quite long. By all means quote selectively from their posts so as to question their arguements but don't just block quote the whole thing for no apparent reason.

General point to everyone. Don't try and smoke and mirror everyone into believing your arguement. Base it on pure hard fact e.g Positive drug tests rather than purely circumstantial evidence. Don't endlessly repeat points by rephrasing them to give them a new shine. Here endeth the lesson on debating.

Just a practical point here.


Flyer can you please stop quoting everyones posts in yours. We have read their points and do not need a repeat copy sitting just below your post each time, makes the page quite long. By all means quote selectively from their posts so as to question their arguements but don't just block quote the whole thing for no apparent reason.

General point to everyone. Don't try and smoke and mirror everyone into believing your arguement. Base it on pure hard fact e.g Positive drug tests rather than purely circumstantial evidence. Don't endlessly repeat points by rephrasing them to give them a new shine. Here endeth the lesson on debating.

 

[VeloFlash]

You are the master of deceptive my not so clever friend.

Before my educational posts re: AIS and it horse hormoned alumni, you subscribed to numerous false beleifs:

1) You thought that (4-time World Champ) Mark French was not associated with AIS and lived above a saloon--off AIS campus.

Nope, never said anything of the sort. You had made statements that French was injecting in a room right under the noses of the AIS. I pointed out to you that the AIS high performance cycling squad train in Adelaide hundreds of kilos from the AIS Canberra complex. French's room was in a former hotel purchased by the AIS as off campus accommodation for the cycling squad. French was an AIS scholarship holder and resided there with other AIS track cycling members.

Flyer, you must need glasses and/or your declining years must be impacting on your retentive ability.

2) No horse hormones where discovered in his room

Correct. Only used syringes in a bucket. Testing of those syringes revealed the substance used was hgh.

3) that over 200 medical items were truned over to a lab----although the chain of custody was broken. Maybe there was more evidence?

Never made any comment. However, testing revealed the product used and the identity of the DNA of a user.

4) Jobie Dajka was 'not' coached by Mssr. Barras

Correct. Any media reference that Barras was his current coach is incorrect. Dajka had his AIS scholarship and support cancelled in 2004. He was training under the support of his state (South Australia) institute of sport which uses the same Adelaide facilities.

5) Jobie Dajka has a alcohol roid rage---and not a horse hormone steroid rage issue.

Made no comment. He has been reported as having an alcohol/depression problem not 'roid rage. It is you who have formed this opinion without evidence.

6) That Sean Eadie never seems to associate with these fellows, despite his need for illegal drugs at airports. (San Diego sourced oral meds)

Never made a comment. The enquiry found that Hgh precursors (not the real thing) supplied to Eadie from San Diego were gratis promotional products as Eadie was a regular purchaser of their legal supplement lines. Evidence showed that Eadie never paid for this product and the supplier from San Diego conceded they were supplied gratis and unrequested.

7) That age 17 Shane Perkins failing a dope test at Worlds in no way reflects upon, AIS, Mark French, Jobie Dajka & Sean Eadie despite the many hours they spent together in the weight room and on velodromes.

Never made a comment. I have trained and competed at velodromes with riders who have failed drug tests. Am I tarred with the same brush?

8) That many folks have pointed fingers at the AIS, not one or two.

Despite numerous repeat requests, you have not provided any evidence that even one person has cast dispersions on the AIS.

9) That only commercial for profit entities have corruption and deception. Never public funded works, NOT EVER.

In about 25 years of operation in preparing thousand of athletes in 85 sports and with hundreds of employees there had not been one whistle blown about the AIS. The Mafia and CIA must have something to learn from the AIS about suppressing whistleblowers!!!

 

[Flyer]

Without Robert Anderson's 'lack-of evidence' green light report---would the Australians have been permitted to attend the 2004 Olympics in Greece?

You decide.

Enjoy the read---it's conclusion could have been scripted without any witness interviews---still some interesting admissions, nevertheless.

http://www.dcita.gov.au/?a=16787

Facts:
1) 4-time Champion Mark French possessed illegal drugs (Testicomp & EquiGen)

2) Jobie Dajka denied using illegal drugs found in French's room. His DNA on 9 horse hormone used syringes made him a liar insofar as doping denials go.

3) Shane Perkins went positive for an illegal stimulant in Los Angeles (July 2004)--but we did not learn of it until after the Olympics.

4) Bradley McGee is an AIS alum

5) Sean Eadie has influence over the sprinter group
And he himself has had to explain why 19 illegal pills were discovered in his luggage in 1999.

6) Mark French's father believes that AIS turns a 'blind eye' to these injections.

Circumstantial---you bet. Evidence---absolutely.

Disturbing behavior in the dorms at Del Monte? Obviously!

Remember, as we often say with Lance Armstrong, if there is a whole lot of smoke, and lots of people standing around talking about the smoke, then there is NO POSSIBLE WAY there is a fire.

 

[Flyer]

Veloflash:

Maybe you ought to stop typing and start reading about things you depise knowing about?

Denial---it is a severe illness.

Just read the report or get drunk you propagandist.

http://www.dcita.gov.au/?a=16787

Nope, never said anything of the sort. You had made statements that French was injecting in a room right under the noses of the AIS. I pointed out to you that the AIS high performance cycling squad train in Adelaide hundreds of kilos from the AIS Canberra complex. French's room was in a former hotel purchased by the AIS as off campus accommodation for the cycling squad. French was an AIS scholarship holder and resided there with other AIS track cycling members.

Flyer, you must need glasses and/or your declining years must be impacting on your retentive ability.


Correct. Only used syringes in a bucket. Testing of those syringes revealed the substance used was hgh.

Never made any comment. However, testing revealed the product used and the identity of the DNA of a user.


Correct. Any media reference that Barras was his current coach is incorrect. Dajka had his AIS scholarship and support cancelled in 2004. He was training under the support of his state (South Australia) institute of sport which uses the same Adelaide facilities.


Made no comment. He has been reported as having an alcohol/depression problem not 'roid rage. It is you who have formed this opinion without evidence.


Never made a comment. The enquiry found that Hgh precursors (not the real thing) supplied to Eadie from San Diego were gratis promotional products as Eadie was a regular purchaser of their legal supplement lines. Evidence showed that Eadie never paid for this product and the supplier from San Diego conceded they were supplied gratis and unrequested.


Never made a comment. I have trained and competed at velodromes with riders who have failed drug tests. Am I tarred with the same brush?


Despite numerous repeat requests, you have not provided any evidence that even one person has cast dispersions on the AIS.


In about 25 years of operation in preparing thousand of athletes in 85 sports and with hundreds of employees there had not been one whistle blown about the AIS. The Mafia and CIA must have something to learn from the AIS about suppressing whistleblowers!!!

 

[Flyer]

' I have trained and competed at velodromes with riders who have failed drug tests. Am I tarred with the same brush?

Finally we are at the root of your denials! You zealously defend your cohorts.

I understand completely. Why did you make me squeeze it out of you? You could have disclosed your obvious lack of objectivity and bias much sooner?

The first step to recovery is 'admission'

You are halfway home now.


Despite numerous repeat requests, you have not provided any evidence that even one person has cast dispersions on the AIS.

Yeah, I surely have.

In about 25 years of operation in preparing thousand of athletes in 85 sports and with hundreds of employees there had not been one whistle blown about the AIS. The Mafia and CIA must have something to learn from the AIS about suppressing whistleblowers!!!

Do not implicate yourself further. You are on muddy soil with lots of EquiGen spent sryinges laying about too.

 

[MJtje]

Moderatoooooooooooooooor HELP! Where is the doping forum gone......get it back and put Flyer back in his cage.....i wanted to say something about a puppy, but I will leave that to house

Do not implicate yourself further. You are on muddy soil with lots of EquiGen spent sryinges laying about too.

 

[VeloFlash]

Veloflash:

Maybe you ought to stop typing and start reading about things you depise knowing about?

Denial---it is a severe illness.

Just read the report or get drunk you propagandist.

http://www.dcita.gov.au/?a=16787

Flyer, just read all 65 pages. Have not found any statement by Robert Anderson QC from his far reaching enquiry that implicates the AIS in doping or covering up doping.

On the contrary, he goes into great detail of all the efforts implemented through the AIS, ASC, CA and ASDA in the anti-doping campaign.

You remind me of the book/movie "A Beautiful Mind". It was about John Nash, a brilliant Nobel Prize winning mathematician who plunged into paranoid schizophrenia. His sickness caused him to see what was not there.

 

[Flyer]

Even though that report was preordained--it revealed many corrupt policies---which you are blind to. (no surprise to me)


AIS has two policies in effect (in direct conflict with each other) This conflict is always resolved in favor of one over the other---but helps to weed out the 'independent thinkers' quickly.

Policy #1: Strict Anti-doping and athlete acknowledgements.

AIS members are made aware of WADA and are told not to dope--or else (French, Dajka, Perkins all get 2nd chances, however, cause the policy is not enforced for top athletes)

#2 Performance Program: Athletes are tested for peak performance on a periodic basis and graded upon results. (and elaborate ranking systems can array riders based upon pure speed)

Athletes with consistently low scores---or lower than their AIS peers will be cut from the program.

The stronger, faster and quicker athletes stay on.

If you can just hold your breakfast down, you can see that these policies work in tantum by discriminating against the 'clean athletes'. If there even are any.

PEDs do work---quite amazingly well. So the dopers will defeat the non-dopers in the ranknings when tests results are tabulated.

Clean riders are dismissed soley on poor performance with no recourse over "why" that may occurred.

It's the perfect fraud. In the end, only the doped athletes make the first string team.

We now know that the top sprinters use illegal drugs.
Horse hormones EquiGen and Testicomp.

And if Dajka had not strangled his coach of three years he would still have the key for the velodrome.

Policy #1 is for public appearances only. Top athletes use drugs everywhere in the world--even at velodromes where hobbists race.

If recreation racers use steroids, Olympic Medal winners will as well.

This was confirmed by French, Perkins and Dajka.

I hope I helped enlighten you.

btw: No whistleblower would EVER approach you based upon your abuse of my posts. You prove my point perfectly. The doping goes on quietly, behind locked doors--and it only turns up when house-parents find items they were not supposed to.

People like you enable the Omerta to grow stronger.

Flyer, just read all 65 pages. Have not found any statement by Robert Anderson QC from his far reaching enquiry that implicates the AIS in doping or covering up doping.

On the contrary, he goes into great detail of all the efforts implemented through the AIS, ASC, CA and ASDA in the anti-doping campaign.

You remind me of the book/movie "A Beautiful Mind". It was about John Nash, a brilliant Nobel Prize winning mathematician who plunged into paranoid schizophrenia. His sickness caused him to see what was not there.

 

[VeloFlash]

Even though that report was preordained--it revealed many corrupt policies---which you are blind to. (no surprise to me)

Maybe you can guide us sight impaired persons to the chapter and verse. I saw no revelations. By 'preordained' does that mean you believe this was a white wash report pre arranged between Robert Anderson QC, the Australian Sports Commission and Cycling Australia? If so, what evidence are you relying on to expose this corrupt practice?

AIS has two policies in effect (in direct conflict with each other) This conflict is always resolved in favor of one over the other---but helps to weed out the 'independent thinkers' quickly.

Never saw that in the report either, Flyer. You are seeing things again.

The rest is just the product of your ongoing fertile imagination and not worthy of comment.

 

[VeloFlash]

Flyer, I am having a postscript laugh.

In two posts you make a link reference and encourage me to read with the comment:

"Maybe you ought to stop typing and start reading about things you depise knowing about?"

After reading the report with all these nasty expectations and finding nothing critical of the AIS re doping, now you say the report was "preordained". Which I presume in your worldly opinion was prearranged to have a sanitised outcome.

Flyer, does your left hand know what your right hand is doing?

 

[ilpirata]

Very good lumpy,cyclists are rather unprotected and exploited. PED's are certainly a serious problem, but only in the minds of people who think sports should be fair competion. If you can make a sacrificial lamb every now and again, and create the illusion of efforts to eliminate doping, than all can go on as usual. Hey you don't even have to get one of the real dopers, just someone that talks too much and may even be against doping. Because the burden of proof of innocence will be on the cyclist. How convenient. Hey why not just take single blood samples with no retains, or plant some siringes in a room he may have been in?

http://www.arpuerta.com/040917.html

Well, that was an interesting link - thanks VeloFlash.

"Athletes need no longer be proven guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt" in doping cases-a near impossibility in many instances-but rather they must be proven guilty "to the comfortable satisfaction" of the panels hearing their cases."

So guilt by association is enough to be labled a doper and banned from competition? If so, then based on Flyers assertions, shouldn't the entire tour be banned from competing? Afterall, if everyone is already doping .....?

I'm sure not comfortable with eliminating the "beyond a reasonable doubt" requirement.

The tour is so political already, if accusations are enough w/out proof to be banned, it could go to hell in a handbasket.

At least our legal system still assumes innocence until proven guilty. Otherwise I'd be called a steroid abuser because I work out in a gym with muscle men.

 

[captnsavaho]

Tour to employ blood doping test for the first time
By Agence France Presse
This report filed June 23, 2005

Organizers of the Tour de France plan to use the same test for illicit blood transfusions first employed at last year's summer Olympics in Athens, the French national drug screening laboratory (LNDD) announced on Thursday.

The test, approved for use last summer, is at the center of two appeals being brought before the international Court of Arbitration for Sport by American Tyler Hamilton and his former Phonak teammate Santiago Perez after both were found to be positive for so-called homologous blood doping.

Blood doping is a means of enhancing endurance by increasing the amount of oxygen-carrying red blood cells, using one's own blood or that of a donor of the same blood group. Both practices are prohibited under UCI rules and the World Anti-Doping Code, but the test developed in Australia is only capable of detecting foreign blood cells and not those that an individual might extract, store and reinject.

Hamilton tested positive at the Vuelta a España last September for an illicit transfusion of what testers said were donor blood cells. The Vuelta test was ordered after a sample Hamilton submitted at the Olympics was deemed positive by a review panel, but could not be confirmed by a B-sample that had already been destroyed.

Hamilton was then sacked by his professional team, Phonak, and given a two-year ban by the United States Anti Doping Agency.

Perez, also a member of Phonak, was found positive in a test after the Vuelta. He, too, was suspended for two years by the Spanish Cycling Federation. The two remain the only athletes to ever have tested positive using the method developed in Australia.

"It's this detection technique that caught Tyler Hamilton out," said the laboratory's director, Jacques de Ceaurriz.

Hamilton and Perez have adamantly proclaimed their innocence and have appealed their suspensions to the Lausanne-based Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS).

Other doping tests on the Tour will mirror last year's, with some 150 blood and/or urine tests, and around 100 tests for EPO (Erythropoietin), the banned red-blood-cell booster, de Ceaurriz said.

However the doctor added that the LNDD still did not have the means to be able to detect growth hormones.

"The technique already exists," he added. "But we can't yet apply it because it requires a large amount of anti-bodies which we just don't have at our disposal yet."

 

[Flyer]

I personally have no idea whether Lance is doping or not; But I am pretty sure that doping is not the reason he has won 6 TDFs. If doping was such an incredible performance booster, then a large percentage of the Peloton would be doping as well. Maybe they are; regardless, if you are one of the critics who bashes Lance Armstrong for doping, you had better be ready to condemn the whole sport itself.

There are several things that, however, set Lance Armstrong apart from the rest of his peers. Anybody who has ever played competitive sports at virtually any level, understands that the mental aspect of your "game" is as important if not more important than the physical aspect. Lance's near-death fight with cancer surely would classify as a focusing-event in his life. It seems to me that this would give a man incredible drive and determination. The kind of drive and determination that enables Lance to train harder and longer than virtually anyone else in his sport.

How Lance trains and rides is another factor. It appears that Lance bashers always overlook the fact that Armstrong does things differently than anyother rider on the tour. Smaller gears, greater cadence, resulting in faster speed. Now I will admit that I am not a cyclist (alas old ages and bad knees have slowed this old body) but for 30 years I have enjoyed watching cycling and have especially enjoyed the TDF. Maybe this riding style is a reason, seems likely to me. (Now I know I am stating the obvious, but after reading some of the posts on Lance it appears that some people miss the obvious).

Although I will admit that I do not have the cycling background that some members of this forum posess, I am well versed in human-nature. What scares me most about some members of this forum is the same thing that scares me regarding our political atmosphere here in the United States. It appears that some members do not look at facts and then develop an opinion. Instead they develop an opinion and then find facts that will support that opinion, regardless of how tenuous, unsubstatiated, or outright illogical. There is no room to consider another point of view...hell that would be admitting some kind of personal defeat....what shame. Basically, you will support and defend your cause regardless of the information presented..or inpite of. Hell, I think Europe got into a little trouble a few years back, as I recall with that kind of fanaticism. The blatant bile spewed in this forum over such an innocuous topic is disturbing and to me represents a bigger problem than any doping allegations. I mean really, what has imbalanced some of you to such a degree? Sorry this is long-winded, old folks tend to go on and on..haha.

P.S. I am not getting into a pissing contest with any of the above mentioned type of individuals..so don't bother.

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