Another Ti frame thread

[Donga]

On Apr 18, 9:03 am, Artoi <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
>
>
>
>
>
> Donga <[email protected]> wrote:
> > The LS Ultimate is a little piggy compared to many modern bikes -
> > something like 1350 g - Stuie's Cervelo P3 is around 850 g and has a
> > lifetime warranty. So even with light parts, my bike still nudges 8.5
> > kg for a similar price to bikes under 8.0. That said, it's a brilliant
> > crit bike - corners like a rocket (faster than the competition) and
> > doesn't waste energy in a sprint. I haven't ridden many other bikes
> > (why would I?) so I can't really say how good it is comparatively,
> > except it seems comfortable, fast and goes exactly where I point it at
> > whatever speed. It also creates envy. But given the choice, I'd pick
> > up another full Ti frame without the carbon.
>
> > Seven Cycles still produce several frames with mixed tubing, so they
> > must be happy. I don't know why LS stopped making them. Perhaps they
> > admitted to themselves there was no need, and people weren't buying
> > the marketing gimmick. You also have to question why f*ck around with
> > something that works, and introduce potential weaknesses?
>
> > There are some great Ti specials that come up, on eBay and in online
> > shops, if you hunt a bit and have time. Don't be in a tearing hurry to
> > get this one, unless you are sure.
>
> Thanks for the detail.
>
> At 1350g, I'd think you should be able to push the bike weight down to
> sub-8kg easy with careful choice ($$) of components. This Palladio is
> supposedly at 1315g. I am aiming at 7.5kg for the full bike if things
> work out as planned.
> --- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hmm, mixed Chorus and Record, 32 h wheels with Rev spokes around
1600g, could drop 50g in stem/bar, Ti post, 300g pedals included (Time
Impact S), could drop 50g on the saddle to put in a contoured board.
Not a lot to trim without great expense. Are your measurements minus
pedals?

Donga

 

[Artoi]

In article <[email protected]>,
Donga <[email protected]> wrote:

> Hmm, mixed Chorus and Record, 32 h wheels with Rev spokes around
> 1600g, could drop 50g in stem/bar, Ti post, 300g pedals included (Time
> Impact S), could drop 50g on the saddle to put in a contoured board.
> Not a lot to trim without great expense. Are your measurements minus
> pedals?

Ummm... I haven't done a detailed calc. Just based on a guesstimate with
reference to my present bike with Veloce triple. Just swapping out the
triple crankset and BB to that of Chorus UT double or CT would save a
significant amount. Otherwise it's Ritchey WCS alloy bar/stem/seatpost.
The 1450g wheelset helps too.
--

 

[Morten Reippuert Knudsen]

Artoi <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Morten Reippuert Knudsen<[email protected]> wrote:

> > At least Merlin and Litespeed dropped the idea together with
> > integrated headsets - another con of Opera Paladium.

> Integrated headset? I didn't think that Opera Palladium had integrated
> headset. There was nothing special with the headset as far as I could
> tell.

look again.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

 

[Morten Reippuert Knudsen]

David L. Johnson <[email protected]> wrote:
> Morten Reippuert Knudsen wrote:

> >
> > the durability of the joning between carbon and titanium.

> In general that is a real concern, but there have been people doing this
> for some time, with good success.

> > the durability of carbon - the reaseon why i wanted ti.

> Well,... in that case, get ti. Seriously, if your major concern is
> longevity, an all-ti frame is hard to beat, especially if it is _not_
> stupid-light.

?? thatds whate i wrote, or at least gues i was. My consern was the
durability of carbon. I wanted Ti because of the durability.

> > the duarbility of the integrated headset.

> IMO a bad idea. Headsets can wear out, or at least parts will. Who
> knows whether the bearings or press-in cups will be available in 5
> years? If it is a standard headset, you can replace the whole thing if
> the particular brand/model is no longer made, but it's a shame to throw
> away a good (and expensive) frame because you can't find a headset part.

> > the stupidity of using a carbon rear on a Ti frame.

> Not my choice, but...

> > the tubes where not seamless.

> Huh? Is this 6/4 alloy?

> > It has a clear paint coat opposed to brushed raw titanium.

> Boo. IMNSHO titanium should not be painted, and clearcoating is oubly
> bad. No reason to do that.

> > the weelds where not as nice as the Litespeed Firentze in the shop

> Now, why is it that you want this bike?

???? i don't! I considered it last year and bought a Merlin instead.
Your are commenting my list of reasons for _not_ buying the Opera.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

 

[Morten Reippuert Knudsen]

David L. Johnson <[email protected]> wrote:
> Morten Reippuert Knudsen wrote:

> > the durability of the joning between carbon and titanium.

> In general that is a real concern, but there have been people doing this
> for some time, with good success.

Yes, but those frames haven't been used for more than 5 years, a ti
frame should last 20 or 30 years. I doubt that those ti/carbon frames
will last that long.

> > the durability of carbon - the reaseon why i wanted ti.

> Well,... in that case, get ti. Seriously, if your major concern is
> longevity, an all-ti frame is hard to beat, especially if it is _not_
> stupid-light.

read again "the reaseon why i wanted ti" and the reasen why i didn't
want the Opera.

> > the duarbility of the integrated headset.

> IMO a bad idea. Headsets can wear out, or at least parts will. Who
> knows whether the bearings or press-in cups will be available in 5
> years? If it is a standard headset, you can replace the whole thing if
> the particular brand/model is no longer made, but it's a shame to throw
> away a good (and expensive) frame because you can't find a headset part.

My primarly reasons for /not/ wanting an integreated hedset are /not/ that
it may be difficult to get spare parts. My reasons are that integrated
headset is an infiriour construction which over time potentially can
dammage the frame as mentioned in this article:
<http://www.chrisking.com/tech/int_headsets_explained/int_hds_explain_1.html>

> > the stupidity of using a carbon rear on a Ti frame.

> Not my choice, but...

> > the tubes where not seamless.

> Huh? Is this 6/4 alloy?

No, ordinary 3/2,5. Bianchi's, Omega's, Aribourne's (or what they call
themselves this year) and some of Litespeeds Ti offerings are
non-seamless as well.
In fact Merlin seems to be the only manufacture who's entirely
commited to seamless ti tubing. (their now dicontinued 6/4 version of
the Works CR where also seamless)

> > It has a clear paint coat opposed to brushed raw titanium.

> Boo. IMNSHO titanium should not be painted, and clearcoating is oubly
> bad. No reason to do that.

exactly.

> > the weelds where not as nice as the Litespeed Firentze in the shop

> Now, why is it that you want this bike?

I didn't. Read my posting again. You are commenting on my list of
reasons why i didn't get the Opera.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

 

[Morten Reippuert Knudsen]

Artoi <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote:

> > > the duarbility of the integrated headset.
> >
> > IMO a bad idea. Headsets can wear out, or at least parts will. Who
> > knows whether the bearings or press-in cups will be available in 5
> > years? If it is a standard headset, you can replace the whole thing if
> > the particular brand/model is no longer made, but it's a shame to throw
> > away a good (and expensive) frame because you can't find a headset part.

> I am not sure that Opera Palladio has integrated headset. Can any one
> verify this one?

All those i saw in here in Copenhagen had integrated headset. Just as
all other Pinarello/Opreas within thew last 5 years.

Here is at pic of the frame/bike i considered, in fact this is exactly
the one... <http://fabin.dk/imagecatalog/OPERA_Palladio_1.jpg>

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

 

[Morten Reippuert Knudsen]

Artoi <[email protected]> wrote:

> Interesting set of concerns. The joint b/n CF and Ti is probably ok
> given that there are so many Alu/CF frames these days.

They are getting fewer, and they are not ment to last more than a few
years. A Ti frame is ment to last a lifetime.

> There must be
> some good durability data on that. I didn't notice that the tubes
> weren't seamless, I'll have to have another look at that one.

most Ti bikes uses non seamless tubes.

If Merlin or Litespeed are to expensive you could take a lok on
Airbourne/Van Nicholas <http://www.vannicholas.com> or the Ti frames
sold by a guy who's been writing in rec.bicycles.tech for years (Micky
somthing). And if youre in the marked for a cheap custum Ti frame
there is: <http://setavento.com/>.

My final dicision was between a Merlin (Spectrum would take too long
and be to troublesome) and a cheaper custum Setavento. I opted for the
Merlin becuase of the marginally lower weight and because my LBS could
get it within in 6 weeks. The Setavento would take considerably longer
and i had already spent 6 month diciding between a nice Look 481SL
carbon frame and Titanium.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

 

[Ted Bennett]

Morten Reippuert Knudsen<[email protected]> wrote:

> or the Ti frames
> sold by a guy who's been writing in rec.bicycles.tech for years (Micky
> somthing)

Mouse.










Sorry, Mark.

It's Mark Hickey, Morten.

--
Ted Bennett
Portland, Orygun

 

[Artoi]

In article <[email protected]>,
Morten Reippuert Knudsen<[email protected]> wrote:

> Artoi <[email protected]> wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > "David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > the duarbility of the integrated headset.
> > >
> > > IMO a bad idea. Headsets can wear out, or at least parts will. Who
> > > knows whether the bearings or press-in cups will be available in 5
> > > years? If it is a standard headset, you can replace the whole thing if
> > > the particular brand/model is no longer made, but it's a shame to throw
> > > away a good (and expensive) frame because you can't find a headset part.
>
> > I am not sure that Opera Palladio has integrated headset. Can any one
> > verify this one?
>
> All those i saw in here in Copenhagen had integrated headset. Just as
> all other Pinarello/Opreas within thew last 5 years.
>
> Here is at pic of the frame/bike i considered, in fact this is exactly
> the one... <http://fabin.dk/imagecatalog/OPERA_Palladio_1.jpg>

You are right. I checked again and indeed it is an integrated headset of
some sort. Reading elsewhere, there seemed to be a whole bunch of
different integrated headset designs as well as partial intergrated.
Never knew that there are so many different standards out there with
headsets. It was a bit of a shock but now I know.
--

 

[Artoi]

In article <[email protected]>,
Morten Reippuert Knudsen<[email protected]> wrote:

> Artoi <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Interesting set of concerns. The joint b/n CF and Ti is probably ok
> > given that there are so many Alu/CF frames these days.
>
> They are getting fewer, and they are not ment to last more than a few
> years. A Ti frame is ment to last a lifetime.

That's logical.

> If Merlin or Litespeed are to expensive you could take a lok on
> Airbourne/Van Nicholas <http://www.vannicholas.com> or the Ti frames
> sold by a guy who's been writing in rec.bicycles.tech for years (Micky
> somthing). And if youre in the marked for a cheap custum Ti frame
> there is: <http://setavento.com/>.

Well, I wasn't specifically looking for a Ti frame in the first place,
but just came across it at a significant discount and thought it's not a
bad Italian frame worthy of consideration. I'll think some more.
--

 

[Artoi]

In article <[email protected]>,
Morten Reippuert Knudsen<[email protected]> wrote:

> Artoi <[email protected]> wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > Morten Reippuert Knudsen<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > At least Merlin and Litespeed dropped the idea together with
> > > integrated headsets - another con of Opera Paladium.
>
> > Integrated headset? I didn't think that Opera Palladium had integrated
> > headset. There was nothing special with the headset as far as I could
> > tell.
>
> look again.

Done. You were correct. It's some kind of integrated headset.

Tough part is that there are no more spec sheets I can find on the net
that lists these in detail. Don't understand why Opera/Pinarello don't
have a section on older products. Pretty cheap.
--

 

[Morten Reippuert Knudsen]

Artoi <[email protected]> wrote:

> You are right. I checked again and indeed it is an integrated headset of
> some sort. Reading elsewhere, there seemed to be a whole bunch of
> different integrated headset designs as well as partial intergrated.
> Never knew that there are so many different standards out there with
> headsets. It was a bit of a shock but now I know.

Beeing an italian frame, it's proberbly a Columbus style integrated
headset. Campy makes those and will probeply countnue dooing so for
years. As i remember Canondale use(ed) the them too.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

 

[Morten Reippuert Knudsen]

Artoi <[email protected]> wrote:

> Well, I wasn't specifically looking for a Ti frame in the first place,
> but just came across it at a significant discount and thought it's not a
> bad Italian frame worthy of consideration. I'll think some more.

If youre not looking for a fram that will last a life time and it isn't
more expensive than than the aluy, steel or carbon frames you have in mind:
go for for the Opera!

If it costs as much as a Litesspeed, Merlin, Bianchi or even a custum
setanvento: don't go for the Opera.

The ride of a Ti frame is just so nice, it can't be compared to anything
else.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

 

[Morten Reippuert Knudsen]

Ted Bennett <[email protected]> wrote:

> Sorry, Mark.

> It's Mark Hickey, Morten.

that's the one.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

 

[Artoi]

In article <[email protected]>,
Morten Reippuert Knudsen<[email protected]> wrote:

> Artoi <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Well, I wasn't specifically looking for a Ti frame in the first place,
> > but just came across it at a significant discount and thought it's not a
> > bad Italian frame worthy of consideration. I'll think some more.
>
> If youre not looking for a fram that will last a life time and it isn't
> more expensive than than the aluy, steel or carbon frames you have in mind:
> go for for the Opera!

Ummm... I think "lasting for a lifetime" would be nice. The fact of the
matter is we do buy new bikes despite what I'll tell my wife.

> If it costs as much as a Litesspeed, Merlin, Bianchi or even a custum
> setanvento: don't go for the Opera.

Well, it's not the cheapest but nor the most expensive of frames.

> The ride of a Ti frame is just so nice, it can't be compared to anything
> else.

That's what attracted me to consider Ti at this point.

That LBS also had a Lapiere Sandium (very light weight) and a Pinarello
(Alu/CF) frame on offer.

I'll go back and talk a bit more.
--

 

[Artoi]

In article <[email protected]>,
Morten Reippuert Knudsen<[email protected]> wrote:

> Artoi <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > You are right. I checked again and indeed it is an integrated headset of
> > some sort. Reading elsewhere, there seemed to be a whole bunch of
> > different integrated headset designs as well as partial intergrated.
> > Never knew that there are so many different standards out there with
> > headsets. It was a bit of a shock but now I know.
>
> Beeing an italian frame, it's proberbly a Columbus style integrated
> headset. Campy makes those and will probeply countnue dooing so for
> years. As i remember Canondale use(ed) the them too.

That's more reassuring given Campy's backing.
--

 

[Donga]

On Apr 20, 7:56 am, Artoi <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Morten Reippuert Knudsen<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Artoi <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > Well, I wasn't specifically looking for a Ti frame in the first place,
> > > but just came across it at a significant discount and thought it's not a
> > > bad Italian frame worthy of consideration. I'll think some more.
>
> > If youre not looking for a fram that will last a life time and it isn't
> > more expensive than than the aluy, steel or carbon frames you have in mind:
> > go for for the Opera!
>
> Ummm... I think "lasting for a lifetime" would be nice. The fact of the
> matter is we do buy new bikes despite what I'll tell my wife.
>
> > If it costs as much as a Litesspeed, Merlin, Bianchi or even a custum
> > setanvento: don't go for the Opera.
>
> Well, it's not the cheapest but nor the most expensive of frames.
>
> > The ride of a Ti frame is just so nice, it can't be compared to anything
> > else.
>
> That's what attracted me to consider Ti at this point.
>
> That LBS also had a Lapiere Sandium (very light weight) and a Pinarello
> (Alu/CF) frame on offer.
>
> I'll go back and talk a bit more.
> --

What are your selection criteria? I get the feeling you have not
focussed down too far yet - if Ti, Ti/C, C, Al/C and Al are still on
the range.

Donga

 

[Artoi]

In article <[email protected]>,
Donga <[email protected]> wrote:

> What are your selection criteria? I get the feeling you have not
> focussed down too far yet - if Ti, Ti/C, C, Al/C and Al are still on
> the range.

Primarily a project bike to go through a complete build. I am open to
all comers, but something different with quality is nice. CF could be
nice, but there's nothing special about them these days. As I said, I
came across the frame by accident and got my interest up. There's no
time pressure to act.
--

 

[Morten Reippuert Knudsen]

Artoi <[email protected]> wrote:

> That LBS also had a Lapiere Sandium (very light weight) and a Pinarello
> (Alu/CF) frame on offer.

I'm shure that the Operea will oulast those two.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

 

[Artoi]

In article <[email protected]>,
Morten Reippuert Knudsen<[email protected]> wrote:

> Artoi <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > That LBS also had a Lapiere Sandium (very light weight) and a Pinarello
> > (Alu/CF) frame on offer.
>
> I'm shure that the Operea will oulast those two.

I suspect so. At least the Opera would be quite unique and a good
keeper. We'll see...
--