Anti-social behaviour



On 06/12/2005 20:03:19 "Brimstone" <[email protected]> wrote:


> I suspect that if and when Paul Smith has some original evidence then he
> will get a hearing. AFAICT at the moment his arguments simply try to
> rubbish other people evidence. Besides which he's one person with, AIUI,
> a personal agenda.


Sounds like a familiar personality to have on a newsgroup. Just change the name and material to suit the occassion.

--

Buck

I would rather be out on my Catrike

http://www.catrike.co.uk
 
On 06/12/2005 20:56:27 Adrian <[email protected]> wrote:

> Buck (ian@*remove*trikesandstuff.co.uk) gurgled happily, soundingmuch
> like they were saying :


>> If ... I am travelling at 35mph on the trike


> 35mph in a 30mph limit on a bicycle (and I'm including trike in that)is
> not explicitly illegal. But is it "safe"?


> What's the relative stopping distance of a bicycle from 30mph?


My vehicle is light and has twin hydraulic brakes, I haven't managed to
hit anyone unintentionaly and have so far not needed to do any
emergency stops other than one occassion with a stray dog. Anyway, I
only travel at an "appropriate" speed for the conditions and
surroundings. That may be 5mph, it may be 40mph.

--

Buck

I would rather be out on my Catrike

http://www.catrike.co.uk
 
On 06/12/2005 21:11:04 Adrian <[email protected]> wrote:

> Buck (ian@*remove*trikesandstuff.co.uk) gurgled happily, sounding much
> like they were saying :


>> I think this is a fair and considered comment it does make a valid point.
>> Credit where credit is due.


> Thank you.


>> I doubt that many people will agree, or at least most will pretend you
>> have not said it


> You miss "and several will completely misrepresent it"...


Yes, forgot about that bit.

--

Buck

I would rather be out on my Catrike

http://www.catrike.co.uk
 
Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
> Tony Raven wrote:
>
>> Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> A word to the wise.
>>>

>>
>> That lets me off then ;-)

>
>
> Still, what's that big green thing behind y... ...aaaarrgghh!!
>


Oh don't mind the Slitheen. The Doctor will be along in a minute to
take care of it.

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon
 
Buck (ian@*remove*trikesandstuff.co.uk) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

>> What's the relative stopping distance of a bicycle from 30mph?


> My vehicle is light and has twin hydraulic brakes,


Right. But what's the stopping distance from 30mph?

Yours is also, I suspect, the exception - What's the stopping distance of a
more representatively equipped bike?

(If a "more representative bike" will get to 30 - mine certainly won't
without a bloody steep hill - but I don't think that's really the bike's
fault.)

> I haven't managed to hit anyone unintentionaly and have so far not needed
> to do any emergency stops other than one occassion with a stray dog.
> Anyway, I only travel at an "appropriate" speed for the conditions and
> surroundings. That may be 5mph, it may be 40mph.


This sounds remarkably familiar...
 
On 06/12/2005 21:56:27 Adrian <[email protected]> wrote:

> Buck (ian@*remove*trikesandstuff.co.uk) gurgled happily, sounding much
> like they were saying :


>>> What's the relative stopping distance of a bicycle from 30mph?


>> My vehicle is light and has twin hydraulic brakes,


> Right. But what's the stopping distance from 30mph?


I do not actually know, I will one day do a test.

> Yours is also, I suspect, the exception - What's the stopping distance of
> a more representatively equipped bike?


> (If a "more representative bike" will get to 30 - mine certainly won't
> without a bloody steep hill - but I don't think that's really the bike's
> fault.)


>> I haven't managed to hit anyone unintentionaly and have so far not needed
>> to do any emergency stops other than one occassion with a stray dog.
>> Anyway, I only travel at an "appropriate" speed for the conditions and
>> surroundings. That may be 5mph, it may be 40mph.


> This sounds remarkably familiar...


Well, I advocate appropriate speed, I just do not enjoy driving much so
things like speed control etc... make the task bearable and camera safe.

--

Buck

I would rather be out on my Catrike

http://www.catrike.co.uk
 
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>>they're concentrating exclusively on whether you travel faster than
>>some abitrary datum *to the exclusion of real factors*. For example,
>>traffic police have been replaced by Gatsos and many constabularies
>>have now done away entirely with their traffic divisions

>
> Unrelated. The two policies - downgrading traffic in the police core
> duties, and automated speed enforcement - do not correlate as far as I
> can tell; I have asked for exact details of the date of the change but
> it appears to come between he legalisation of Gatso prosecutions and
> the sharp increase in cameras after 2000.
>
> Traffic police actually spend *less* of their time on speed
> enforcement now, as the cameras can do a lot of that for them.


Oh if that were true - and we still had traffic police patroling our
roads. It's very hard to have traffic police spending any time on
anything when you don't have traffic police. So, road safety enforcement
is now limited solely to whether or not you travel faster than some
arbitrary datum. In places like Staffordshire, there is now nobody to
take dangerous and careless drivers to task and they can tailgate, drive
across solid white lines, pull out right in front of you, etc. whenever
and wherever they like provided they don't go faster than that datum near
enforcement equipment.


You are correct that I have my own agenda (don't we all).

As a motorist, I want to drive in safety without needing to choose
between that and keeping my license. For over a year, I have obeyed the
speed limits, no matter how daft they seem; prior to that, I treated
speed limits as guides. My priorities have changed and I feel forced to
put preservation of my license ahead of road safety. Prior to this, I had
over two decades of accident-free motoring and a near-miss (i.e. one
where I had to take unplanned, evasive action) about once every four or
five weeks. In the last year, I've been rear-ended twice and my near-miss
rate has gone up to average about one every journey. The near misses are
nearly all due to other drivers' aggressive driving (and some will do
almost anything to get past me), or others misjudgement of my speed. For
example, as I approach a car waiting to join from a minor road, the other
driver will hesitate, realise that I'm not going as fast as is normal for
the road, and then pull out right in front of me forcing me to brake hard
or swerve.

Now, it's easy to blame the other drivers, but I suspect that it's no
coincidence that it's me who's getting the near misses while others who
don't rigidly obey speed limits are not. No, the problem is that over the
last year I have been driving at inappropriately slow speeds for the
conditions, and thus less safely.

As a cyclist, I want other road users to drive with due dilligence and to
make the necessary allowances. Two decades ago lorries, buses, and taxis
were the greatest menace but normal motorists seemed reasonably
courteous. Now, everyone seems to be driving on autopilot and cycling on
public roads is no longer safe. Drivers used to hold back until safe to
pass but that is rare these days. Thumb up bum, they bimble along at the
speed limit, even though that's too fast for the conditions, passing so
close that I could take off their near-side door mirrors with my knee
without taking my feet off the pedals!

I am convinced that the obsessive reliance on automated speed
enforcement, and the propaganda being distributed to allow that to
continue, has altered the mindset of the British driver. Just as with me,
priority has shifted from safety to preservation of one's license, and
that has reduced my safety both as a motorist and as a cyclist.

--
Geoff Lane
Cornwall, UK
 
Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>> And I think you really ought to stop comparing chalk and cheese. In
>> the system you propose, the particles are allowed to move at random
>> in three dimensions. In a road system, the "particles" are
>> constrained to clearly- defined, two-dimensional paths.

>
> I think you should give up on any ideas of a career in physics. The
> rules hold in both two and three dimensional systems. Collision
> frequency increases with velocity irrespective of whether your
> particles
> are made of chalk or cheese.


Except that I've presented calculations to show that in the road system,
where particles are constrained to clearly-defined, two-dimensional
paths, the probability of collision reduces with the square of speed
while you have merely presented conjecture based on what happens in a
system that does not, and cannot, model the road system.

However, it's pointless getting side-tracked down that path because
physics is not the major determinant. Every day there are millions of
potential collisions on our roads, yet very few of them happen. The
reason for this is that human factors are directing the paths and speeds
of those vehicles. Newtonian physics alone cannot be used to determine
whether a collision will occur.

--
Geoff Lane
Cornwall, UK
 
On 13 Jun 2005 07:31:59 GMT, Geoff Lane wrote:
> "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>>>they're concentrating exclusively on whether you travel faster than
>>>some abitrary datum *to the exclusion of real factors*. For example,
>>>traffic police have been replaced by Gatsos and many constabularies
>>>have now done away entirely with their traffic divisions

>>
>> Unrelated. The two policies - downgrading traffic in the police core
>> duties, and automated speed enforcement - do not correlate as far as I
>> can tell; I have asked for exact details of the date of the change but
>> it appears to come between he legalisation of Gatso prosecutions and
>> the sharp increase in cameras after 2000.
>>
>> Traffic police actually spend *less* of their time on speed
>> enforcement now, as the cameras can do a lot of that for them.

>
> Oh if that were true - and we still had traffic police patroling our
> roads. It's very hard to have traffic police spending any time on
> anything when you don't have traffic police. So, road safety enforcement
> is now limited solely to whether or not you travel faster than some
> arbitrary datum. In places like Staffordshire, there is now nobody to
> take dangerous and careless drivers to task and they can tailgate, drive
> across solid white lines, pull out right in front of you, etc. whenever
> and wherever they like provided they don't go faster than that datum near
> enforcement equipment.
>
>
> You are correct that I have my own agenda (don't we all).
>
> As a motorist, I want to drive in safety without needing to choose
> between that and keeping my license. For over a year, I have obeyed the
> speed limits, no matter how daft they seem; prior to that, I treated
> speed limits as guides. My priorities have changed and I feel forced to
> put preservation of my license ahead of road safety. Prior to this, I had
> over two decades of accident-free motoring and a near-miss (i.e. one
> where I had to take unplanned, evasive action) about once every four or
> five weeks. In the last year, I've been rear-ended twice and my near-miss
> rate has gone up to average about one every journey. The near misses are
> nearly all due to other drivers' aggressive driving (and some will do
> almost anything to get past me), or others misjudgement of my speed. For
> example, as I approach a car waiting to join from a minor road, the other
> driver will hesitate, realise that I'm not going as fast as is normal for
> the road, and then pull out right in front of me forcing me to brake hard
> or swerve.


Well, perhaps you ought to reexamine your own driving. I've been driving
for nearly 30 years and at least 20 of them have been at or under the
speed limit. I've had very few near misses, as you call them, in that
time, only once had to take evasive action on a big scale, never
had an accident and never been rear ended. Perhaps I'm just lucky,
or perhaps you're just ****.

I guess you've moved into licence preservation mode, as you call it,
because you've lost so many points that one further offence is going
to take you over the limit. Roll on that day, eh?

--
Nobby
 
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>>It is incredible to me the extent to which pro-scamera propaganda has
>> brainwashed the public to believe the
>>probability of collision rises with speed.

>
> The use of the word "scamera" is a clear sign of your agenda: what is
> the scam?


The scam is leading people to believe speed is the big killer, when in fact
it is other bad driving techniques which do the most damage. Speed is easy
to go after so they have.

--
MrBitsy
 
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> No, speedophile: one addicted to speed. I know exactly how it feels,
> I am a "recovering speedophile" myself. My days of driving up the M3
> at 135mph are long gone, thankfully.
>


Ah, this explains it - rather like ex smokers being the worst anti smokers.

--
MrBitsy
 
Nobody Here <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Well, perhaps you ought to reexamine your own driving. I've been
> driving for nearly 30 years and at least 20 of them have been at or
> under the speed limit. I've had very few near misses, as you call
> them, in that time, only once had to take evasive action on a big
> scale, never had an accident and never been rear ended. Perhaps I'm
> just lucky, or perhaps you're just ****.
>
> I guess you've moved into licence preservation mode, as you call it,
> because you've lost so many points that one further offence is going
> to take you over the limit. Roll on that day, eh?


FWIW, I re-evaluate my driving every time I have a near-miss. I ask myself
what could I have done to mitigate the incident and which aspect of COAST
went wrong. So, I have re-examined my own driving and I know that I'm not
driving to the conditions; I'm driving too slowly far too frequently. The
result is that a gap opens up between me and the vehicle in front (which,
like most other motorists, is speeding) and that gap is an "open
invitation" to be cut up. So, I'm expecting other drivers to pull into that
gap. However, far too often they leave it until the last minute.

The other major problem is that some people will do almost anything to get
past. Again, it's that gap - I'm not making adequate progress for the
conditions. If I drove at the same speed as everyone else, they'd stay
patiently behind me; I don't and they don't. So, I have to spend a lot of
time looking rearward so that I can compensate for the antics of the
"speeders" behind.

FWIW, the "official cause" of both my rear-endings would have been
tailgaters. If someone tailgates me, I'll help them get past - I'd rather
have a tailgater in front than behind. If there isn't already a gap in
front of me, I'll open the gap to four seconds in good conditions (and more
on wet or loose road surfaces) so that I don't need to brake as violently
if something goes pear-shaped.

On one occasion, some idiot four cars back jumped the entire line to get in
front of me. My tailgater and his tailgater closed the gaps even further to
stop the idiot "jumping the queue". At that point, an oncoming car rounded
the bend and the idiot, now alongside me, would have been head-on with that
car if I hadn't braked. The idiot just squeezed in by forcing the oncoming
car into the verge; my tailgater ran into my towbar; his tailgater ran into
him. Of course it was my fault. If I'd driven to the conditions rather than
the speed limit, the idiot wouldn't have acted as he did and that collision
would never have happened.

The other rear-ending happened when a car joined from a minor road too
late. I braked and the van behind me was driving too close to stop. This
was a classic where the driver pulling out misjudged my speed. She
hesitated, realized that I going slower than the normal speed for that
road, and then pulled out - but too late.

WRT the cleanliness of my license: I have no points, I've never had points,
and I want to keep it that way.

@Nobby: Whether or not you're lucky depends on how critical you are of your
own driving and what you consider a near-miss. To me, a near-miss is
anything within "close scan" (usually about five seconds) that causes me to
drive reactively rather than pro-actively. You might have what I'd consider
near-misses but disregard the incidents. I prefer to acknowledge mine, and
so learn from them. I've read somewhere that over 90% of drivers believe
that they have above average skills. Now, I don't care where I am in that
pile. I know that I'm still learning and I want to be a better driver. How
about you?

--
Geoff Lane
Cornwall, UK
 
Geoff Lane ([email protected]) gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying :

> FWIW, I re-evaluate my driving every time I have a near-miss. I ask
> myself what could I have done to mitigate the incident and which
> aspect of COAST went wrong.


COAST?

> On one occasion, some idiot four cars back jumped the entire line to
> get in front of me. My tailgater and his tailgater closed the gaps
> even further to stop the idiot "jumping the queue". At that point, an
> oncoming car rounded the bend and the idiot, now alongside me, would
> have been head-on with that car if I hadn't braked. The idiot just
> squeezed in by forcing the oncoming car into the verge; my tailgater
> ran into my towbar; his tailgater ran into him. Of course it was my
> fault. If I'd driven to the conditions rather than the speed limit,
> the idiot wouldn't have acted as he did and that collision would never
> have happened.


> The other rear-ending happened when a car joined from a minor road too
> late. I braked and the van behind me was driving too close to stop.
> This was a classic where the driver pulling out misjudged my speed.
> She hesitated, realized that I going slower than the normal speed for
> that road, and then pulled out - but too late.


Both interesting conclusions, Geoff - and a lot of truth in them, but I
really wouldn't beat yourself up TOO badly on them - yes, you can mitigate
the likelihood of a **** being a ****, but the fact remains that they're
being a ****.
 
On 13 Jun 2005 15:12:52 GMT, Geoff Lane wrote:
> Nobody Here <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Well, perhaps you ought to reexamine your own driving. I've been
>> driving for nearly 30 years and at least 20 of them have been at or
>> under the speed limit. I've had very few near misses, as you call
>> them, in that time, only once had to take evasive action on a big
>> scale, never had an accident and never been rear ended. Perhaps I'm
>> just lucky, or perhaps you're just ****.
>>
>> I guess you've moved into licence preservation mode, as you call it,
>> because you've lost so many points that one further offence is going
>> to take you over the limit. Roll on that day, eh?

>
> FWIW, I re-evaluate my driving every time I have a near-miss. I ask myself
> what could I have done to mitigate the incident and which aspect of COAST
> went wrong. So, I have re-examined my own driving and I know that I'm not
> driving to the conditions; I'm driving too slowly far too frequently. The
> result is that a gap opens up between me and the vehicle in front (which,
> like most other motorists, is speeding) and that gap is an "open
> invitation" to be cut up. So, I'm expecting other drivers to pull into that
> gap. However, far too often they leave it until the last minute.


<Shrug> I'm not in the car with you, and the tales you tell below
(that I've snipped) are your interpretation of the events. Your
experiences differ vastly from mine, though, and I'd suggest that
they differ from a lot of people who do habitually observe the
speed limit as a *limit*. You make the classic argument - "If I
don't break the law myself then I will cause some other **** to
do so, and they could be dangerous." It's ******** - someone who
is going to drive stupidly because you are holding them up by going
at 30 rather than 35 is going to do it none the less. What speed
do you suggest you should drive so as not to irritate people
behind you into doing something stupid? 40? 50? There are
plenty of cases of people driving through villages posted at
30 on A roads at over 70 - perhaps you should do 70?

No matter how fast you drive, there will always be some bigger
******** than you who thinks you should be going faster. And you
think you should pander to them, do you?

I'd like to be able to say I'd never heard such unmitigated rubbish
in all my life. Sadly, it's all too common, though, in the motoring
newsgroups. Still, at least *you* claim to be observing the speed
limit now, so there's a result, eh?

--
Nobby
 
Geoff Lane <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Nobody Here <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>

<snipped>
>
> On one occasion, some idiot four cars back jumped the entire line to
> get in front of me. My tailgater and his tailgater closed the gaps
> even further to stop the idiot "jumping the queue".


Well, well, well - who is the idiot here I wonder?

I suggest your tailgators made this incident as dangerous as it turned
out. They should have allowed the overtaker to pass them, and given them
room to move back in if a vehicle approached from the other direction.

Also, you had plenty of warning of the overtake so why let it develop
into what happened next?

> At that point, an
> oncoming car rounded the bend and the idiot, now alongside me, would
> have been head-on with that car if I hadn't braked.


You new the car was coming AND you knew they would have to pass you
because of the twats clsing the gap behind you. If they were tailgating
you before, then the tailgating got closer trying to block the other guy
out!

You should have been reacting before you did - you knew the corner was
there, you knew the overtaker was there AND you knew the cars behind had
closed any escape route!

> The idiot just squeezed in by forcing the oncoming car into the verge;



Well, what did you expect?

> my tailgater
> ran into my towbar; his tailgater ran into him. Of course it was my
> fault. If I'd driven to the conditions rather than the speed limit,
> the idiot wouldn't have acted as he did and that collision would never
> have happened.


If you want to drive at the speed limit then do so. Try to anticipate
incidents developing like this one did. You may not have been at fault
for creating it, but you did sod all to avert it once it started.

> The other rear-ending happened when a car joined from a minor road too
> late. I braked and the van behind me was driving too close to stop.
> This was a classic where the driver pulling out misjudged my speed.
> She hesitated, realized that I going slower than the normal speed for
> that road, and then pulled out - but too late.


You were approaching a junction with a tailgator behind - react BEFORE a
car moves at the junction!

> WRT the cleanliness of my license: I have no points, I've never had
> points, and I want to keep it that way.
>
> @Nobby: Whether or not you're lucky depends on how critical you are of
> your own driving and what you consider a near-miss. To me, a near-miss
> is anything within "close scan" (usually about five seconds) that
> causes me to drive reactively rather than pro-actively. You might have
> what I'd consider near-misses but disregard the incidents. I prefer to
> acknowledge mine, and so learn from them. I've read somewhere that
> over 90% of drivers believe that they have above average skills. Now,
> I don't care where I am in that pile. I know that I'm still learning
> and I want to be a better driver. How about you?


Anticipation is what you are missing - go to the IAM or RoSPA, take a
course and increase your skill in that area.


--
MrBitsy
 
Adrian <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>> FWIW, I re-evaluate my driving every time I have a near-miss. I ask
>> myself what could I have done to mitigate the incident and which
>> aspect of COAST went wrong.

>
> COAST?


Concentration
Observation
Anticipation
Space
Time

The five most essential commodities for safe driving.

HTH,

--
Geoff Lane
Cornwall, UK
 
Geoff Lane wrote:

> On one occasion, some idiot four cars back jumped the entire line to get in
> front of me. My tailgater and his tailgater closed the gaps even further to
> stop the idiot "jumping the queue". At that point, an oncoming car rounded
> the bend and the idiot, now alongside me, would have been head-on with that
> car if I hadn't braked. The idiot just squeezed in by forcing the oncoming
> car into the verge; my tailgater ran into my towbar; his tailgater ran into
> him. Of course it was my fault. If I'd driven to the conditions rather than
> the speed limit, the idiot wouldn't have acted as he did and that collision
> would never have happened.


Bollocks. On the reading above, it was primarily the fault of the
overtaker, with some assistance from the two drivers behind you (what
does the HC say about not obstructing people overtaking you?)
>
> The other rear-ending happened when a car joined from a minor road too
> late. I braked and the van behind me was driving too close to stop. This
> was a classic where the driver pulling out misjudged my speed. She
> hesitated, realized that I going slower than the normal speed for that
> road, and then pulled out - but too late.


Again, bollocks. The fault of the pulling-out person, aided again by
your tailgater. Although if I was in that situation, I would think
about reducing my speed more gradually when I saw the car nurdling out
from the side road, to avoid the need for panic braking.

R.
 
Geoff Lane ([email protected]) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

>> COAST?


> Concentration
> Observation
> Anticipation
> Space
> Time


Ta.
What's the source of that one? IAM?

> The five most essential commodities for safe driving.


Indeed.
 
Richard <[email protected]>
wrote in news:[email protected]:

> Geoff Lane wrote:
>
>> On one occasion, some idiot four cars back jumped the entire line to
>> get in front of me. My tailgater and his tailgater closed the gaps
>> even further to stop the idiot "jumping the queue". At that point, an
>> oncoming car rounded the bend and the idiot, now alongside me, would
>> have been head-on with that car if I hadn't braked. The idiot just
>> squeezed in by forcing the oncoming car into the verge; my tailgater
>> ran into my towbar; his tailgater ran into him. Of course it was my
>> fault. If I'd driven to the conditions rather than the speed limit,
>> the idiot wouldn't have acted as he did and that collision would
>> never have happened.

>
> Bollocks. On the reading above, it was primarily the fault of the
> overtaker, with some assistance from the two drivers behind you (what
> does the HC say about not obstructing people overtaking you?)


Why was the overtaker an automatic idiot? The op describes how the two
drivers behind closed any gaps - one the overtaker was going for perhaps?

Also, the OP made no attempt to slow before there was almost a head on,
making him rather idiotic too.

>> The other rear-ending happened when a car joined from a minor road
>> too late. I braked and the van behind me was driving too close to
>> stop. This was a classic where the driver pulling out misjudged my
>> speed. She hesitated, realized that I going slower than the normal
>> speed for that road, and then pulled out - but too late.

>
> Again, bollocks. The fault of the pulling-out person, aided again
> by your tailgater. Although if I was in that situation, I would
> think about reducing my speed more gradually when I saw the car
> nurdling out from the side road, to avoid the need for panic braking.


So not bollocks then?


--
MrBitsy
 
On Sat, 28 May 2005 09:43:13 +0100, Tilly <[email protected]>
dropped the following oil-slick:

><snip>


Good Lord! Did this thread finally die?
--
gomez
(not is hot to reply)
"The progress of the kart is more important than its direction"
 

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