Any Christian cyclist out there?

Discussion in 'The Bike Cafe' started by Chad-GA, Nov 16, 2005.

  1. baj32161

    baj32161 New Member

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    Like ummmm The Crusades?, orrrrrrrr....The Inquisition? orrrrrr...the subjugation of the Central and South American native populations?....orrrrrr...the blatant theft of cultural treasures?, orrrrr hmmmmm....the myriad examples of sanctioned murder by the Christian Church? I am sorry but I do not see a positive message here anywhere.

    Perhaps you may want to explain all of this to all of the people for whom YOU feel so sorry.

    In my mind the Christian Church used methods that we decry today as terrorism.
     


  2. USS Silversides

    USS Silversides New Member

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    I have been watching this thread with a great deal of interest...

    baj32161, a few things I would like to point out on your examples-

    The Crusades were were an attempt by the West to recapture the East from the Muslims and to stop their ruthless onslaught before the whole world was consumed by Islam.

    The Inquisition was a brutal church court held by the Roman Catholic Church that persecuted Protestant Christians and such.

    The South and Central American conquests were intended to overthrow the horribly brutal cultures that had begun to thrive there. However what many people do not know is that the common people in those areas were the main force used against the tyrannical rulers.

    Blatant theft of cultural treasures? Perhaps you are speaking of the Exodus? I don't quite see the problem there- you have people that have been enslaved for years on end and they take with them some captured treasures...

    Great discussion,

    Jonathan
     
  3. wheelist

    wheelist New Member

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    I think baj32161 was simply pointing out the amount of violence propagated in the name of religion. Whether it was Christian on Christian, Christian on Muslim, Muslim on Christian is almost irrelevant.

    You lot (religious types) are always causing trouble and then justifying it by saying your god said it was okay (or commanded it), or their god was the wrong one, or they needed to see the "error of their ways", or "we were just spreading the word", or some other bollocks.

    Don't agree? Bush. Bin Laden. 21st Century worshippers.

    What happened to "Thou shalt not kill"?

    Well, my god says you're all wrong. He says the moon is made of cheese. Now I have to kill you because you don't believe.
     
  4. baj32161

    baj32161 New Member

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    Wheelist you are right on the money with your interpretation of my post. These acts are always justified by the religious right claiming they were "trying to save the world from" something or other. I may be wrong but isn't this what our government is being accused of at this moment? Yet, we Americans (well many of us) fail to see the similarities. It is not your "God given right" as a Christian to foist your views and laws upon the rest of the world. I was baptized and confirmed as an Episcopalian and was an avid member of the church as a child. Then I grew up and began to (oh my God!!)....think for myself and saw the blatant hypocrisy of the Christian Church...as well as many others. I happen to believe that EVERY relgion, and EVERY culture is valid and can teach us something. Now before some of you jump up and call me a bleeding heart liberal or whatever you choose to call me...this is the very essence of what is called tolerance. And THAT is something there is percious little of in the world today.

    Aren't the Ku Klux Klan's many acts of terrorism perpetrated in the name of their (and your) Christian God? I would say that you Christians need to take a serious look at the company you keep. I refuse to blindly submit to the laws of some spectral "God." If you choose to, and you are happy, then I am happy for you. Just do not feel sorry for me...I am happy and do not need, nor do I want your pity.

    Rant over (for now:D )

    Peace,

    Brian
     
  5. huhenio

    huhenio New Member

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    mmm ...cheese :D!

    If I die ... I want to go to the moon so to stand on a whole planet full of cheese.
     
  6. artmichalek

    artmichalek New Member

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    This is all open to interpretation. The Crusades, the Inquisition, and the Central American conquests were motivated by a lot of things; none of which were faith. Read up on any of them and you'll see strong social, poitical, and most importantly economic forces. Religion was just used as a convenient mask to get the masses of people who had nothing to gain by these atrocities to follow along.
     
  7. cydewaze

    cydewaze New Member

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    Another month, another religion thread in the Cafe.

    Probably belongs in the soap box.
     
  8. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    I agree with you.

    Religion is used as a pretext to invade and bring war to other people, by some people.

    Fundamentalism is the root cause of conflict : Christain fundamentalism, Islamic fundamentalism, Jewish fundamentalism, Sihk Fundamentalism, Hindu Fundamentalism.
     
  9. artmichalek

    artmichalek New Member

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    So communist dictators that murder their political enemies in the name of state mandated atheism are morally superior? What about the "religious types" that set up hospitals in third world countries? Does that fit into "always causing trouble"?
     
  10. wheelist

    wheelist New Member

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    No. All murder is wrong. I just don't see many communist dictators talking about atheism whilst they're killing their political enemies. I guess political differences are the cause here, irrelevant of whether the dictator believes in any god or not.

    Nope. Well maybe....let me explain.

    Firstly, the people building hospitals aren't the ones setting the political agenda or the controlling the media. This is left to the crazy extremists who use religion as a tool for their own purposes (Bush - hears God directly, the Pope who denies contraception, Bin Laden working 'for' Allah etc).

    Secondly, there are obviously 'good' Christians out there whose intentions are to make the world a better place. There are also non-believers doing the same thing (helping to "set up hospitals in third world countries" etc).
    Being good isn't the preserve of Christians or any other religious group.

    Finally, last night on the news here in the UK, there was a report about the 74 year old hostage Norman Kember, who was taken a few days ago in Baghdad along with a couple of Canadians and an American. The report said something about the incident, something about the captors, and finished with the final line:
    "Mr Kember is a committed Christian".

    So what? Why tell us this? The UK isn't a religious place. We don't need to know this. So what is is the point of telling us so clearly?

    Simple. The media will try to use the execution of Mr Kember to provoke more religious antagonism between Muslims and Christians. They'll succeed of course. They've already interviewed members of his church in order to heighten the Christian outrage and force coalition around this feeling.

    And so all of Mr Kembers efforts to improve the situation will merely undermine themselves, simply because he so blatantly labelled himself as a Christian.

    So in the end, yes, this probably fits in quite well with "always causing trouble".
     
  11. baj32161

    baj32161 New Member

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    I am constantly at odds with my family over this. They truly believe that being Christian is the only way one can be a good person. This is the height of arrogance, and leads me to ask them what they think of me. Of course I never get the direct answer that I am looking for. As Mr Wheelist has said, there are many non-believers who have done, and are still doing great things to aid the human condition. If you Christians choose to overlook this, then you must also overloook all other groups of people when you look at all of the atrocities committed in the name of your Christian God. If you are the only good people, then you are also the only murderous zealots....and, of course we all know that is not true.

    I would also like to know where Chad-GA is. Chad,you are the one who caused this ruckus...and at the risk of sounding confrontational...and I do not mean to..where are your thoughts now? This type of topic always creates quite a stir. Do you care to be the peacemaker here? You, like many Christains I know, seem like a very decent and likeable man. Perhaps you can help here?

    This is not an age where simple rhetoric can "convert" people to one faith or another. The world, and I, have become much more cynical...more's the pity.

    Peace,

    Brian
     
  12. baj32161

    baj32161 New Member

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    Yes sir...as your history is replete wich such actions being committed against your fine people.

    As an aside Mr Limerickman. I visited Ireland back in 1999 for my birthday and never have I had a better time, or met a more wonderful, friendly bunch of people. After all of your sad history, the spirit and warmth of you people was truly inspiring...as an African-American male, I experienced more of that in 8 days there than I have in the last 10 years here in my own country...THAT was very refreshing.

    Cheers,

    Brian

    I am REALLY trying to climb down from my soapbox!!:D
     
  13. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    I am not sure that I agree with the premise that the medias referring to Norman Kember as a "Christian Peace campaigner", is deliberate.

    I heard Tony Benn MP discussing Norman Kember this morning and he stated that Kember had been a member of the peace movement for over 50 years.
    (Benn is agnostic and a good friend of Norman Kember).

    From hearing Benn speak about him, I doubt that mr.kember would refer to himself as a Christian Peace campaigner : I would imagine that he would refer to himself as simply, a Peace Campaigner.

    Be that as it may, you could well be correct - maybe the media, by using labels such as Islamic/Christian/Jewish, are attempting to create division, rather than agreement ?

    You've certainly given some food for thought though.
     
  14. jhuskey

    jhuskey Moderator

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    Lim,as you probably know I believe the media is an incarnation of evil and will go to any length to propagate a story.
    I think there are some that would start a war if possible just to report it's horrors.
    Terms like red states,blue states,leftist,right conservative,drunken Irishman,hillbilly etc. only serve to drive a wedge between people and socieities. The media just loves to create catch phrases that generalize.
    Of course political views and agendas vary ,but seldom to the extreme. The reality usually lies somewhere in between, but the media feeds on differences,imbellishes,exagerates and inflames issues.
    I am not an advocate of law suits but I am waiting for the first large class action against the media for causing malicious harm by absence of reasonble care in reporting.

    There is an old saying about firemen and there being two type.
    One that like to ride the truck and ring the bell and a few that like to watch things burn.
    I think this addage applies to the media some just like to fuel the fire and watch the world burn.
    Ok,that's my hate mail for today,at least for now.
     
  15. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    I take your point JH.
    I am open to the suggestion that media might well be creating divisions.
    I am not sure that it is a deliberate policy.
    That's my point.
    I am certain that some media deliberately and willfully use labels about people to whom (that media) objects to.
    But is all media doing this ? I don't know.

    Of course by affixing labels to people/stories the media runs the risk of alienating someone/somewhere.
     
  16. shokhead

    shokhead New Member

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    I prefer the dont ask,dont tell.
     
  17. Chad-GA

    Chad-GA New Member

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    Brian, thanks for the comments. I certainly understand your position on feeling defensive about being a non-Christain and still a good person. (BTW, sorry for being a bit absent over the last couple of days. Our family just got a new addition on Nov. 10th, so sleep and spare time are at a premium. Check at the photos if you like http;//davies-ga.smugmug.com. Please no rude comments there. Thanks!)

    Like I said before, I was in many of your shoes for basically my entire life up until a few months ago. (I just turned 35) Like you, I felt like I was a pretty good person and resented anyone for making feel bad for not believing the same thing they did. I especially disliked and still do anyone that claimed to be a Christain, yet did not live by it in any way. (i.e. hippocrites) I do have a better understanding of that now and am a little less bothered by it than I used to be.

    As I am sitting here typing this response, I am hesitant to write too much. I could seriously go on for a long time about how I came to Christ in the first place and what He has done for me since that time, but I don't really feel like this is the place to do that. I will post my testimony sometime soon on the Unfulfilled.org site for any of you that are interested. I will say that I feel fortunate that God chose to give me some very clear physical signs that I could just not deny Him anymore. I guess He knew I would be a pretty tough nut to crack.

    I do also want to comment on the whole topic of violence in the name of religion thing. I do not believe sharing your faith in a possitive way (i.e. wearing a shirt) is in any way the same as killing in the name of Allah or whatever. I believe in freedom of expression and believe that sharing my faith with anyone is simply that. I do not believe that you or anyone else should be forced to accept my beliefs as your own, but I will not stop sharing mine just because it makes some people feel bad.

    I do not believe that I am better than you or anyone else because of my religious beliefs. I only know that I am a happier and more fulfilled person now than I have ever been because of my acceptance in Christ as my Lord and Savior. Who the heck wouldn't want to share such good news?

    (I just wanted to see ho many times I could fit some form of the word "believe" in my post. ;-) Sorry, I am certainly no wordsmith)

    Chad
     
  18. Brian-NC

    Brian-NC New Member

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    I am a longtime friend of Chad's.

    After Chad provided the link to this forum, I spent a few minutes reading the posts and wanted to share a few truths.


    First of all Chad and I are sinners bought by the blood of Jesus Christ. Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;(That is ALL)- The wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23

    Before I committed my life to Jesus Christ and felt a need for Him, I thought I was a good person and many others did as well. I helped people in need, opened up my house many times for troubled people, donated a lot of money to “good” charitable causes and was kind to many. That did not make me a good person. That was the surface side of my life which appeared “good” in my actions. But the heart is deceitful, selfish above all things. These good actions are ok but I was still in darkness. You see in Jeremiah 17:9-10 it states: The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? "I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve." You see He checks the motives. If you read my testimony you will see that there were many other things that lay under the surface but when exposed to the Truth and Light (Jesus Christ) He covered them in His blood. We can fool many around us but there is One that has infinite capabilities and will bring all things to light in the end. Ephesians 5:12-15. If you perused the testimony at the Unfulfilled site, I was a chief sinner and a fallen creature. I am not proud of that but it is true. 1 Timothy 1:15 – “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.” A few years ago when I was heavy into drinking, drugs, pornography, immorality and selfish ambition, I would not have taken kindly to someone telling me about the goodness of Jesus Christ and He could offer me such a better life, but I needed to hear that. The opposition is strictly due to the force of who was controlling me in my soul. II Corinthians 10:4; John 8:44 I had a non-responsive, bitter attitude to anyone wanting to help me.

    I can testify this life is so much better and my destiny has changed for eternity. There was little I didn’t have afforded me before Jesus came into my heart. All of the tangible things but I did not have real peace, real security and real strength. I wish I would have heard it years prior but that was not God’s plan. When I realized my sin hung Jesus on the cross, I put Him to death. A perfect Lamb, blameless and I had a hand in putting Him to death. But, He forgave me, came off the cross, picked me up and forgave me. He gave me a right way to the Father. He conquered the curse of sin and death, the wages I deserved. That is wonderful news. It puts a lift in my step every morning.

    Sharing His Goodness with a pure heart giving Him the Glory demonstrates His love for the lost. It is out of love that one shares about what Jesus Christ has done for all of us. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. It is critical this happens prior to death. Death is the call of judgment we all face. We will meet God, believe it or not you will. You cannot deny death, you will face it. I noticed a post of a rider that was killed and it made me think of my neighbor whose mother died of a heart attack a few days ago. I am not sure what the posts are for Jim. My neighbor’s mother was saved. I visited the funeral home last night and there was a celebration and sadness was not the mood. It was comforting to hear her son say she is such a better place now and this departure and separation is just a temporary one.



    Chad wants to sow seed wherever He rides. What a testimony of someone that was an atheist. God is truly demonstrating His power through Chad and many others that are sowing seed. “But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field” Matt. 13:23-24 This is why we spread seed through jerseys, cards, billboards, sermons, messages, ect. This seed has already produced so much fruit. God is faithful. There are so many that think they are “fulfilled” just like I was but are deceived. You can be temporarily fulfilled in life’s pleasures and relationships but eternal fulfillment is only through Jesus Christ. We are obedient to spread seed, He does the work by the power of His Holy Spirit. God will take care of the rest. It is the role of the Holy Spirit to convict and move the person to knowledge and revelation that they need Jesus Christ. John 16:8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt (or will expose the guilt of the world) in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:



    For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16



    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9:



    In closing, I am a sinner saved by grace. There is nothing righteous about my being other than being identified, sanctified and cleansed by the Blood of Jesus Christ. He has bought me into the family and right relationship with the Father. Although I am so undeserving and unworthy, His grace is sufficient and amazing. His offer stands for all.



    Love in the Name of Jesus,
    Brian
     
  19. baj32161

    baj32161 New Member

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    Brian...This is Brian and this is exactly the type of response I was afraid of...up until now this has been a lively, and very civil debate...not to mention quite enlightening. This, however, is unacceptable. Even the original poster (Chad) did not resort to mindless preaching. If you want to preach, please find the appropriate forum in which to do so. I am not interested in being preached to....as I have mentioned in one of my earlier posts. If you had bothered to follow the entire thread you would see that most of the people posting here have been rather diplomatic towards each other, in spite of different views. It is responses such as this that make it so hard for many of us (and I do not mean to speak for others..I hope I will be forgiven for doing so) to accept or even want to listen to people like yourself. Please try to stick with the tone of the discussion. I do not find Christianity at all offensive. What I do not care for is the disregard people like you apparently have for my beliefs and peace of mind. I have stated this in one of my earlier posts. If you are happy with your faith, and you sound as if you are, then I am happy for you. And I respect you and your faith. Please show me the same courtesy and do not shove YOUR beliefs down MY throat.

    By the way...do you ride?

    Peace!,

    Brian
     
  20. baj32161

    baj32161 New Member

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    Chad...thank you for your understanding, and congratulations on the new addition. I wish him or her a long happy and love filled life.

    Regards,

    Brian
     
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