Any experienced eyes able to take a look at a couple files?

Discussion in 'Power Training' started by bgoetz, Jul 21, 2012.

  1. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    Well, out of 4 race type efforts I have been at or just over my FTP for 1hr NP. My average powers seem within reason and I stomp tested my powertap several times, everything checks out. So either I need to raise my FTP even more (currently 350) or somehow NP is not being calculated correctly. The critcs, and I have a few seem to think something has to be off and that with a 350 watt FTP I should just be able to ride away during our hard training rides and races. I am basically sitting on the front thrashing everyone including myself, with most just hanging on or getting shelled. I am not sure what else I can do to quite the critics, but figured it would be good to have trained eyes take a look for any obvious flaws.
     
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  2. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    For perspective my 3.75hr hard training ride with the team was 305NP. Which to me seems nuts, especially because it is so flat and I had a considerable amount of time where we were just chilling at a social pace. Don't get me wrong there were many times were I was going as hard as I could and I certainly feel fatigued, but 305 watts for that amount of time?
     
  3. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    I don't know if I can tell you anything from looking at your ride files, but I will take a look if you want. Just send me a PM and I'll give you my email address. But, I don't understand the logic of those who think you can just ride away from the group with a 350W FTP. On the flat, the drafting benefit is about 30-35% in position 2 and increases to nearly 50% a few positions back. So, if you're doing 350W on front, the guy right on your wheel is doing less than 250W and everybody in Cat3+ can do that.

    At this point, you may find more success with anaerobic surges, especially in segments where the drafting advantage is less (e.g., climbs). Anaerobic power has two parts and while one part has a recovery half-life such that it fully recovers after about 5 minutes, the second part has a very long recovery half-life such that it doesn't recover during the course of the ride. So, by forcing the other riders to repeatedly go anaerobic you're gradually emptying that 2nd anaerobic gas tank and eventually you may drop them. This is why a good FTP is a necessary condition for racing success but not a necessary and sufficient condition. Anaerobic power is often the deciding fitness metric.
     
  4. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    350w FTP is sufficient to ride away from most groups, but riding at 350w will not get rid of the group. 400w at the right time may be enough to get away and then 350w might be enough to stay away.
     
  5. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    So what you are saying is if I kick at 400watts I will get away? If so that is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. Even on an incline it will take a kick of 900+ watts to break the strangle hold of a group of accomplished cyclists. I was doing pulls today at over 700 watts and all it was doing was dropping the weak off the back. Maybe 400 watts for 5min up a hill....
     
  6. mx416

    mx416 New Member

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    I believe he was saying you need a hard kick for several minutes to establish a gap, from there you can back it down to a sustainable level and hopefully stay away. You don't state your weight, but if I had a 350w FTP at my weight, that would certainly be plenty to solo away from a field in a road race.
     
  7. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    I understand that, but 400 watts won't do it around here unless there is a cross wind. At 400 watts second wheel only needs to hold 250 watts, less for third. I am 180lbs, and trust me it is not as easy as some may think to just "ride away", especially when you live in an area that is basically flat. My best friend is a cross wind :)
     
  8. cheetahmk7

    cheetahmk7 Well-Known Member

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    350w and 180lb is 4.28 w/kg. That's only a rung or two higer than me on the power profile charts and I'm only an A-grader at club level. Step up to State Opens and I'm a humble C or D-grader.
     
  9. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    So if you race at national level then you become an H grader?

    Farking Aussies. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/duck.gif

    /img/vbsmilies/smilies/ROTF.gif
     
  10. cheetahmk7

    cheetahmk7 Well-Known Member

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    It's simpler than that. You just become road kill.
     
  11. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    I was not really looking for an analysis of my power profile, I am aware where I stand. Fortunately for me I, 1- don't live in Australia and 2-have managed to make due with my "lack of power" and am a Cat 2 over here. If you are making your FTP/kg based on weigh though, we are two totally different cyclists. Even two guys with the same FTP, one guy significantly lighter the other stronger, the stronger guy will put the hurts to the lighter guy, especially into a head wind.
     
  12. cheetahmk7

    cheetahmk7 Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't being critical, it's just that I don't think that 350w at 180 lbs is enough to" just ride away" from your competition, especially if they get it into their heads to work together to chase you down.
     
  13. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    Ok, I am with you now. I just don't like being compared to a "D" cyclist, lol
     
  14. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    No. Two guys with the same FTP - the one that's more aero will stick it to the other on the flat. Power is power, stronger = more power. Typically the bigger guys are "stronger" on the flat because they typically put out a fair chunk more power and on a road bike have an aero drag that's not, proportionately at least, hugely dissimilar - so the big guys typically hand out the hurt on the flats to the climbers.... ... And it doesn't help that a lot of the smaller guys have a position on their bike when riding in the drops that looks like theyve had a double fracture of the pelvis at some point in their life. Go find a little guy that's putting out similar numbers to you for 5 and 20 minutes and tell me how you get on with that ride. I'd suspect that pee-wee man will be dishing up the hurt with an added serving of ass-whoopings and every time the road tilts upwards ever so slightly hang on...
     
  15. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    Sadly, I had first hand experience of being the proverbial "ex-living" speed bump...
     
  16. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    I think that is what I was trying to say, Swampy. Maybe it came out wrong.
     
  17. lanierb

    lanierb New Member

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    The only thing we could do really is load a file into WKO+ and see what that says. I suppose we could also scan the file for anomalies. You should probably just tell your buddies to shut up and set your FTP to 360 or whatever looks right to you. If you stomp tested the PM all is likely well. Why don't you post a link to a file and we can have a quick look?
     
  18. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    Rapdaddyo took a look and confirmed that the files look right. He also provided a useful observation that I spend a heck of a lot of time in L7. My FTP is 350 for now, I will see what the 60 min crit I am doing Sunday looks like.
     
  19. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    Actually, these files were pretty interesting. When I first examined bgoetz's ride files, I used my default parsing setting in which the L7 floor is 150%FTP and 5secs. With this setting, he was doing up to 13% of L7. That really cracked me up. I had to bump the L7 criteria to 200%FTP to get the L7 time down to a more reasonable 2%. The problem is this guy regularly rips off 30sec at 1000W. Once he figures out how to take maximum advantage of his anaerobic work capacity, he'll have some real fun turning other riders' legs to putty./img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif
     
  20. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    And you were spot on. I went out Tuesday and did a bunch of 3x3 efforts and really struggled to have any type of consistency after the first couple. I don't think this is something that I have always struggled with, but is more a product of my racing/training over the past month. Most of my efforts have been high intensity low duration and I have done lots of hard crits and road races with steep short hills
     
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