Any fitters in this forum?

[serpico7]

I've had a pro fitting done, but wasn't satisfied with the results, partly because the fitter set me up in a very aggressive position, which proved too much for my limited flexibility. Since then, I've done a lot of trial and error adjustments, and am considerably more comfortable. However, one problem area remains - my knee. I've managed to reduce discomfort a little, but the pain remains and, as I'm getting stronger and putting more power to the pedals, knee pain seems to be the limiting factor in my cycling.

So I was hoping that someone very familiar with bike fitting, and, in particular, familiar with saddle height, fore/aft, knee plane, varus wedges, stance width and cleat positioning could help me out. I would be willing to pay, though after shelling out over $200 on the earlier fitting, my budget is tight.

Here's how I figured it could be done. I send/post online a video of me on rollers, taken from various angles. You review and make suggestions. I incorporate those suggestions and put up a new video. Repeat as necessary.

 

[Sillyoldtwit]

I've had a pro fitting done, but wasn't satisfied with the results, partly because the fitter set me up in a very aggressive position, which proved too much for my limited flexibility. Since then, I've done a lot of trial and error adjustments, and am considerably more comfortable. However, one problem area remains - my knee. I've managed to reduce discomfort a little, but the pain remains and, as I'm getting stronger and putting more power to the pedals, knee pain seems to be the limiting factor in my cycling.

So I was hoping that someone very familiar with bike fitting, and, in particular, familiar with saddle height, fore/aft, knee plane, varus wedges, stance width and cleat positioning could help me out. I would be willing to pay, though after shelling out over $200 on the earlier fitting, my budget is tight.

Here's how I figured it could be done. I send/post online a video of me on rollers, taken from various angles. You review and make suggestions. I incorporate those suggestions and put up a new video. Repeat as necessary.

You could take a look at this link - it might help. Tyson
http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCY?PAGE=FIT_CALCULATOR_INTRO

 

[serpico7]

You could take a look at this link - it might help. Tyson
http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCY?PAGE=FIT_CALCULATOR_INTRO

Thanks, the adjustments I need are way more subtle than what I'd get from that calculator. But it raises a point I forgot to mention - namely that I have a set of measurements (all the ones that the Competitive Cyclist fit calculator employs) taken with the help of a friend, so that might make an online fitting procedure easier.

 

[sogood]

How would an aggressive position affect the knee? I thought that being aggressive, one primarily modifies the reach and drop ie. Upper body. Shouldn't have an impact on the knees, right?

 

[rwinthenorth]

I've had a pro fitting done, but wasn't satisfied with the results, partly because the fitter set me up in a very aggressive position, which proved too much for my limited flexibility. Since then, I've done a lot of trial and error adjustments, and am considerably more comfortable. However, one problem area remains - my knee. I've managed to reduce discomfort a little, but the pain remains and, as I'm getting stronger and putting more power to the pedals, knee pain seems to be the limiting factor in my cycling.

So I was hoping that someone very familiar with bike fitting, and, in particular, familiar with saddle height, fore/aft, knee plane, varus wedges, stance width and cleat positioning could help me out. I would be willing to pay, though after shelling out over $200 on the earlier fitting, my budget is tight.

Here's how I figured it could be done. I send/post online a video of me on rollers, taken from various angles. You review and make suggestions. I incorporate those suggestions and put up a new video. Repeat as necessary.

For me, knees are strictly 2 functions: 1. saddle height and 2. saddle position.

1. Make sure you are raising the saddle up enough. I have mine to the point where when the peddle is at 6:00, my knee is a hair under straight, and I mean a hair. It feels a little odd at first but you get used to it fast and it will produce more power with less effort (the part I like). The seat being too low can put pressure on the tendons around the knee cap because your using them instead of the power muscles by not flexing your legs far enough.

2. Make sure your seat is level or pitched a few mm forward. Once in a while if my seat slips backwards even just a few mm's, it will pinch my ham/groin muscles which in turn make my knees ache, especially across the top of the cap. I don't know the physiology of it but it works.

When you've dialed those 2 thing in, you'll know it immediatley with a sigh of relief. It may have been the fit was right, even if aggressive, but things may have moved around just enough to cause discomfort. Also, lower your gearing and spin faster to take the stress off of your knees. They may need a week or two of this to relieve the swelling and pain after you've fixed the problem. Good luck.

 

[sideshow_bob]

How would an aggressive position affect the knee? I thought that being aggressive, one primarily modifies the reach and drop ie. Upper body. Shouldn't have an impact on the knees, right?

unless by aggressive they've achieved that by lifting the saddle to increase the drop enough so they are maxing out leg extension on the downstroke.

--brett

 

[serpico7]

For me, knees are strictly 2 functions: 1. saddle height and 2. saddle position.

1. Make sure you are raising the saddle up enough. I have mine to the point where when the peddle is at 6:00, my knee is a hair under straight, and I mean a hair.

Isn't the knee bend at the bottom of the stroke supposed to be ~30* (with a range of 25-35* depending on the individual)?

2. Make sure your seat is level or pitched a few mm forward. Once in a while if my seat slips backwards even just a few mm's, it will pinch my ham/groin muscles which in turn make my knees ache, especially across the top of the cap.

By "pitched forward", do you mean nose tilted slightly down? Or do you mean saddle fore/aft position?

Also, lower your gearing and spin faster to take the stress off of your knees. They may need a week or two of this to relieve the swelling and pain after you've fixed the problem.

My cadence averages 100-110 during hard efforts (seated climbing is lower: 75-90 depending on the grade).

 

[serpico7]

unless by aggressive they've achieved that by lifting the saddle to increase the drop enough so they are maxing out leg extension on the downstroke.

Yeah, pretty high saddle height. My hamstrings aren't very flexible so the high saddle height gave me some lower back pain. A slightly lower saddle eliminated the low back pain. I've been working on hammy flexiblity, so maybe I could raise the saddle back up a bit, which probably would make my knees feel better.

 

[serpico7]

What the hell - here's a video of me on rollers. Observations? Suggestions? Thanks.

Oh, I wasn't particularly smooth on the rollers because I hadn't logged much time on them when I made that video. So if a newer video with me doing less darting side-to-side would help, I can create it.

 

[sogood]

unless by aggressive they've achieved that by lifting the saddle to increase the drop enough so they are maxing out leg extension on the downstroke.

Ummm... Interesting definition of aggressive if that's what the OP meant. In any case, if the fitter over-stretched the legs, then that's a bad fit by definition.

 

[rwinthenorth]

Isn't the knee bend at the bottom of the stroke supposed to be ~30* (with a range of 25-35* depending on the individual)?

By "pitched forward", do you mean nose tilted slightly down? Or do you mean saddle fore/aft position?

My cadence averages 100-110 during hard efforts (seated climbing is lower: 75-90 depending on the grade).

I will say, my fit for me is on a traditional diamond frame, not the relaxed frame like yours, and it doesn't look like your fit is aggressive. With that in mind...

Yes pitched forward maybe a few mm of level.

Looking at your video your legs look like they are not stretching far enough, but it also looks like you saddle is a little far back, meaning your legs look like they are trying to reach to far forward instead of coming around and going straight down on the peddle stroke. The seat post is up there and doesn't look like it has any more room to go up. Is this the right size frame for you? No offense if this was what was recommended by your fitter. Relaxed frames fit a bit differently

High cadence is good. I was just commenting on lowering your gearing and not to chomp on the high gears while your knees heal.

 

[rwinthenorth]

Isn't the knee bend at the bottom of the stroke supposed to be ~30* (with a range of 25-35* depending on the individual)?

By "pitched forward", do you mean nose tilted slightly down? Or do you mean saddle fore/aft position?

My cadence averages 100-110 during hard efforts (seated climbing is lower: 75-90 depending on the grade).

Pitched forward

 

[serpico7]

I will say, my fit for me is on a traditional diamond frame, not the relaxed frame like yours, and it doesn't look like your fit is aggressive.

This isn't the fitter's fit. I made changes to get more comfortable, namely, reducing the drop from 8cm to 2cm. But the saddle setback is what the fitter set me up with, and the saddle height is ~1cm lower.

Looking at your video your legs look like they are not stretching far enough, but it also looks like you saddle is a little far back, meaning your legs look like they are trying to reach to far forward instead of coming around and going straight down on the peddle stroke. The seat post is up there and doesn't look like it has any more room to go up.

Yeah, someone else said the same thing about saddle too far back. Seat post has plenty more room to go up, if that's the right thing for a better fit.

 

[sogood]

...it doesn't look like your fit is aggressive. With that in mind...

Looking at your video your legs look like they are not stretching far enough, but it also looks like you saddle is a little far back, meaning your legs look like they are trying to reach to far forward instead of coming around and going straight down on the peddle stroke. The seat post is up there and doesn't look like it has any more room to go up. Is this the right size frame for you?

I get that impression too, as if the hip was so far back that the legs were trying to reach for the pedals and the trunk was trying to reach forward.

Maybe it's a distortion from the lens, but what's the proportion of your trunk to leg length? Your arms looked pretty long too. The suggestion of using Competitive Cyclist's fit calculator seemed worthwhile.

 

[serpico7]

I get that impression too, as if the hip was so far back that the legs were trying to reach for the pedals and the trunk was trying to reach forward.

Maybe it's a distortion from the lens, but what's the proportion of your trunk to leg length? Your arms looked pretty long too. The suggestion of using Competitive Cyclist's fit calculator seemed worthwhile.

Overall height is 170cm height. Cycling inseam is 84.5cm. All legs, and skinny ones at that.

Yeah, I've used the CC calculator - my setup is within the ranges provided for by the various "fits".

 

[Sillyoldtwit]

I will say, my fit for me is on a traditional diamond frame, not the relaxed frame like yours, and it doesn't look like your fit is aggressive. With that in mind...

Yes pitched forward maybe a few mm of level.

Looking at your video your legs look like they are not stretching far enough, but it also looks like you saddle is a little far back, meaning your legs look like they are trying to reach to far forward instead of coming around and going straight down on the peddle stroke. The seat post is up there and doesn't look like it has any more room to go up. Is this the right size frame for you? No offense if this was what was recommended by your fitter. Relaxed frames fit a bit differently

High cadence is good. I was just commenting on lowering your gearing and not to chomp on the high gears while your knees heal.

I got exactly the same impression, but I'm no expert. Tyson

 

[curby]

Quick observation... when I tip my monitor 6 or so degrees up at its right edge your position doesnt look so far back from the side view. I think the video was playing tricks on my eyes before that.

Also the width and drop of the handlebars look too great to me...

 

[serpico7]

Quick observation... when I tip my monitor 6 or so degrees up at its right edge your position doesnt look so far back from the side view. I think the video was playing tricks on my eyes before that.

Also the width and drop of the handlebars look too great to me...

Not sure about the side view, but the front view angle definitely makes the bars look too wide, but in person, my arms are coming straight out from my shoulders to the bars. Next time I do a video, I'll try to adjust the angle to better show my shoulders and bars.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Not sure about the side view, but the front view angle definitely makes the bars look too wide, but in person, my arms are coming straight out from my shoulders to the bars. Next time I do a video, I'll try to adjust the angle to better show my shoulders and bars.

Do you have unusually long femurs and/or is that an unusually small bike you're riding? It looks to me like you need those wide bars or you'd hit your forearms with your knees while riding in the drops. Is you saddle set so far back in an attempt to make a very small frame fit better? Even in the drops you look crunched up with a round back instead of comfortably stretched.

Video is tough and maybe it's just camera angles but it sure looks to me like you're squeezed onto a very small frame and sitting really far back. The rise stem and number of spacers in your stack also make it look like the frame is awfully small for you. Did your fitter drop your saddle after bringing your bars up as much as practically possible rather than pushing for a larger frame?

FWIW, pain in the front of the knee is usually linked to a low saddle, poor cleat position, non floating cleats or pronounced pronation/supination. Since you're using Lemond wedges it sounds like you've looked into the pronation/supination issues, but are you riding cleats with float? And is your saddle height set to any of the canned formulas or roughly as high as you can go before you get into hip rocking or excessive reaching on the downstroke? Knee angle measurements are tough to do without a goniometer and someone skilled in its use.

-Dave

 

[serpico7]

Do you have unusually long femurs and/or is that an unusually small bike you're riding?

My legs are long for my height. 170cm total height; 84.5cm cycling inseam. Not sure if my femurs are long relative to my lower leg. The bike is a size 54 with a 53.5cm virtual top tube.

It looks to me like you need those wide bars or you'd hit your forearms with your knees while riding in the drops. Is you saddle set so far back in an attempt to make a very small frame fit better?

This isn't the bike I was fit on, but the saddle setback from the bottom bracket is 6cm, which is how the fitter set me up on the old bike. I would hope he determined the setback solely based on positioning my legs correctly relative to the bottom bracket, and NOT because of where he wanted my upper body to be.

Even in the drops you look crunched up with a round back instead of comfortably stretched. Video is tough and maybe it's just camera angles but it sure looks to me like you're squeezed onto a very small frame and sitting really far back. The rise stem and number of spacers in your stack also make it look like the frame is awfully small for you.

The crunched up look is more because I'm not riding with my pelvis tilted forward, so my back has to bend more. I've been working on flexibility, so since the time I made that video, I tilt a bit more at the pelvis. Also, I swapped out the 100mm stem in the video for a 120mm stem.

Regarding the stack height: I recently built this bike, so I wanted to try riding with a very small drop from saddle to bars (2cm) before cutting down the steerer. The fitter had me set up with 8cm of drop on my old bike - way too much for me. The 2cm drop is soooo much more comfortable. With 8cm of drop, I didn't have any bend in my elbows and my shoulders/upper back/neck were taking a pounding. As I get more flexible, I can reduce the stack height, but right now it feels pretty good.

FWIW, pain in the front of the knee is usually linked to a low saddle, poor cleat position, non floating cleats or pronounced pronation/supination. Since you're using Lemond wedges it sounds like you've looked into the pronation/supination issues, but are you riding cleats with float? And is your saddle height set to any of the canned formulas or roughly as high as you can go before you get into hip rocking or excessive reaching on the downstroke? Knee angle measurements are tough to do without a goniometer and someone skilled in its use.

I shimmed with varus wedges because my knees move closer to the top tube at the top of the stroke (as can be seen in the video clip without the shims). I shimmed the right knee more because that's the one that hurts. My left knee also moves towards the top tube, but it doesn't hurt (well, not as much as the right knee anyway). The knee pain is sort of front/medial.

I'm using grey Keo cleats, so 4.5* float. The saddle height is ~1cm lower than my fitter had it set. This is because with the higher setting my lower back would hurt. But since then I've improved hamstring flexibility so I could probably raise the saddle up 1cm without low back pain - that is, if the saddle looks too low.

Thanks to everyone for the feedback thus far. Depending on the consensus amongst those with some fitting experience (either on themselves or others), I'm happy to make the changes and redo the video with the new position (assuming it doesn't hurt right off the cuff).