Any "legal" aids to recovery ?



EasyDoesIt

New Member
Apr 11, 2005
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Hi all

I've been putting in a lot of miles lately well more than usual but i just don't seem to be going any better. I'm climbing better. i.e. lung capacity has increased and my heart rate is slower but my legs just don't seem to be improving. I was out today and after 30 miles my legs just felt dead and i've no energy, actually thought i was getting the bonk but wasn't. I'm bringing plenty of food with me and water but as i said it's like the more miles i do the worse i'm going, i know this will eventually pass but it's fustrating in the mean time. Has anyone any ideas as to how i can get through this rough patch quicker ?

Thanks in advance
 
EasyDoesIt said:
.... it's like the more miles i do the worse i'm going, i know this will eventually pass it's fustrating in the mean time. Has anyone any ideas as to how i can get through this rough patch quicker ?...
How much and how hard are you training and more importantly how are you allocating your weekly rest? More miles doesn't mean more fitness if they're: too easy, too hard or not balanced with enough rest. Just plugging away the same workouts day after day isn't a good idea either.

Remember the training stress is necessary to bring about positive adaptation, but that adaptation occurs while you're resting, not while you're training. Without the right balance between work intensity, work duration and rest you won't move forward.

So what's your current schedule look like?
-Dave
 
Ok well i everyday i go out i don't go out the next day i'd always take it off. I work 12 hr shifts so if i'm working 3 days/nights i don't go out on the bike either. Up until now i was training on hills which are hard no matter how fit u are and the spins would be 30 to 40 miles. Now i'm trying to get more miles in, done a 100 mile spin in a group about 4 weeks ago and was cramping the last 20 miles, done 70 miles last sunday in a group and i was pretty tired the last 10 miles. Minimum sleep i'd get per night would be 7 hrs, if i don't have to be up early i'd get around 8 or 9. Worse part is last year i was doing less miles but going a lot better but now i can't even get to that level !!

Hope this helps
 
Weight training :confused:

In all due respect I don't think that is the solution to the OP's situation.
 
Have you got a power meter? I suppose, power measurements and then the ride analysis with Cycling Peaks SW are the best way to numerically model what has been the trraining load, and then with the TSB (training Stress balance), ATL, CTL (Acute / Chronic Training Load) estimate how well you may have recovered from previous exercises. On the Power training forum there are lot of discussions of the topic.
 
If you're riding more and not improving or getting worse, it would seem logical to ride less. Scale back on either the intensity or the duration of your rides.

Rome wasn't built in a day. True improvement on the bike will come slowly and as a result of a well thought out long-term training plan. Back off until you figure out what that plan might be.
 
Felt_Rider said:
Weight training :confused:

In all due respect I don't think that is the solution to the OP's situation.

Don't knock it 'till ya try it.

My legs have never felt better after a winter of skiing and weight training.
 
Xsmoker said:
Don't knock it 'till ya try it.

My legs have never felt better after a winter of skiing and weight training.
:D I think I know more than most here about weight training and especially training legs.

Here is one of my visual resumes for lifting
This one of many people that I have coached over the past 20 years.
Follow the links to friends and you can see if I know anything about training legs.

Jesse
 
Try doing some cross training. I've found strapping on a backpack and hiking up steep mtn. trails at a very fast pace has gotten me past sticking points in my training. Get a good burn going in those legs.

Are you getting enough protein?
 
EasyDoesIt said:
Ok well i everyday i go out i don't go out the next day i'd always take it off. I work 12 hr shifts so if i'm working 3 days/nights i don't go out on the bike either.
O.K., that's a bit hard to follow. What does that look like on a weekly basis? Is it something like:

M - ride
T - rest
W- work 12 hours no ride
Th-work 12 hours no ride
Fri -work 12 hours no ride
Sat - ride
Sun - rest

Or is it something very different? Could you lay it out in a typical weekly or two week schedule block?

From your description it sounds like you're only riding two or three days per week. I wouldn't try to load up big miles on a schedule like that. I'd focus on your core aerobic fitness with tempo and threshold workouts. The hills you were doing were probably a very good idea on your limited riding schedule since they tend to put you into either tempo or threshold levels unless they're very short hills.

I strongly disagree with those that recommend weight training or cross training now that you're in your cycling season. With your limited riding time you should be targeting specific cycling fitness. Even the best cross training from a different sport will only transfer partial fitness to cycling. If you just want to be healthier in general, then fine; hike, swim, run or do whatever sounds fun. If you want to improve your cycling fitness on a limited weekly schedule then ride. I'm not against off season cross training if you live a place where it makes sense, but in season cross training is a waste of your very limited workout time.
Worse part is last year i was doing less miles but going a lot better but now i can't even get to that level !!...
That part doesn't surprise me. The more limited your training time is, the more important it is to focus on intensity not duration. Many cyclists have gotten real fit with a steady diet of really long rides, but they generally had time to do an awful lot of those long rides and time to recover well enough to do them again and again in their weekly schedule. You can develop an awful lot of cycling fitness on five to eight hours per week if you change your focus from distance or hours to working at appropriate intensities.

I recently started looking at miles and hours per week and was shocked to find that I have yet to ride a 200 mile week this season and I typically average 10 hours of training. And I can't remember ever racing this well in April on years when I was getting twice the weekly mileage. I did our local Tuesday night hammerfest this week just to catch up with folks and to get some high speed pack riding. Last year I hung on for dear life and usually lost it after a few hard attacks or on longer climbs. I was amazed to find myself right at the front and ended up off the front with a couple of other guys by the end of the evening. After regrouping and heading home I was one of the few remaining riders willing to pull while everybody else sat in and looked gassed. And this was at the end of a 50 mile ride when I'd done another 25 in the form of a sprint workout that morning. The big change has been a steady diet of threshold and tempo work, fewer long rides and better rest. Half the hours and twice the results, ya gotta love that :)

So what does a typical week look like?
-Dave
 
sidewind said:
Have you got a power meter? I suppose, power measurements and then the ride analysis with Cycling Peaks SW are the best way to numerically model what has been the trraining load, and then with the TSB (training Stress balance), ATL, CTL (Acute / Chronic Training Load) estimate how well you may have recovered from previous exercises. On the Power training forum there are lot of discussions of the topic.
Nope don't have a power meter but i do know for a fact i'm going worse than this time last yr !
 
Ergoman said:
If you're riding more and not improving or getting worse, it would seem logical to ride less. Scale back on either the intensity or the duration of your rides.

Rome wasn't built in a day. True improvement on the bike will come slowly and as a result of a well thought out long-term training plan. Back off until you figure out what that plan might be.
Yes that's what i was thinking of doing but don't want to loose the bit of fitness i've already built up.
 
daveryanwyoming said:
O.K., that's a bit hard to follow. What does that look like on a weekly basis? Is it something like:

M - ride
T - rest
W- work 12 hours no ride
Th-work 12 hours no ride
Fri -work 12 hours no ride
Sat - ride
Sun - rest

Or is it something very different? Could you lay it out in a typical weekly or two week schedule block?

From your description it sounds like you're only riding two or three days per week. I wouldn't try to load up big miles on a schedule like that. I'd focus on your core aerobic fitness with tempo and threshold workouts. The hills you were doing were probably a very good idea on your limited riding schedule since they tend to put you into either tempo or threshold levels unless they're very short hills.

I strongly disagree with those that recommend weight training or cross training now that you're in your cycling season. With your limited riding time you should be targeting specific cycling fitness. Even the best cross training from a different sport will only transfer partial fitness to cycling. If you just want to be healthier in general, then fine; hike, swim, run or do whatever sounds fun. If you want to improve your cycling fitness on a limited weekly schedule then ride. I'm not against off season cross training if you live a place where it makes sense, but in season cross training is a waste of your very limited workout time.
That part doesn't surprise me. The more limited your training time is, the more important it is to focus on intensity not duration. Many cyclists have gotten real fit with a steady diet of really long rides, but they generally had time to do an awful lot of those long rides and time to recover well enough to do them again and again in their weekly schedule. You can develop an awful lot of cycling fitness on five to eight hours per week if you change your focus from distance or hours to working at appropriate intensities.

I recently started looking at miles and hours per week and was shocked to find that I have yet to ride a 200 mile week this season and I typically average 10 hours of training. And I can't remember ever racing this well in April on years when I was getting twice the weekly mileage. I did our local Tuesday night hammerfest this week just to catch up with folks and to get some high speed pack riding. Last year I hung on for dear life and usually lost it after a few hard attacks or on longer climbs. I was amazed to find myself right at the front and ended up off the front with a couple of other guys by the end of the evening. After regrouping and heading home I was one of the few remaining riders willing to pull while everybody else sat in and looked gassed. And this was at the end of a 50 mile ride when I'd done another 25 in the form of a sprint workout that morning. The big change has been a steady diet of threshold and tempo work, fewer long rides and better rest. Half the hours and twice the results, ya gotta love that :)

So what does a typical week look like?
-Dave
Ok sorry about that reply will outline a typical 2 or 3 week training i do. Last yr as i said i was training a lot on hills then when i'd go out with the sunday group i'd be very strong because the group wouldn't go up hills that were as hard as the ones i was training on. But they were only 50 to 60 mile spins with the group, this year the spins are longer but i still seems to be stuck in the 50 or 60 mile zone if u know what i mean ? Below i've done 3 weeks to give u an idea of my work pattern, 3 12 hr shifts, days one week nights the next.

Mon: 30-40 miles on hills
Tue: Rest
Wed: 30-40 miles on hills
Thur: Work nights
Fri: Work nights
Sat: Work nights
Sun: 25 miles on hills
Mon: Rest
Tue: 30-40 miles on hills
Wed: Work days
Thur: Work days
Fri: Work days
Sat: Rest
Sun: 100 miles with group
Mon: Rest
Tue: 25 miles on hill + Work nights
Wed: Work nights
Thur: Work nights
Fri: 25 miles easy
Sat: Rest
Sun: 70 miles with group.

I know the night shifts aren't helping me at all but for the time being i have to do them !

Hope this helps, thanks in advance
 
EasyDoesIt said:
....I know the night shifts aren't helping me at all but for the time being i have to do them !...
Yeah, it's a tough schedule from a recovery standpoint but it's workable.

You look like a good candidate for block training with three potential riding days in a row followed by three forced days off in a row. That depends in part on how much rest you get at work. The whole idea of block training is to dig a fairly deep training hole(you will be tired at the end of the block) and then follow it with enough time for your body to recover and supercompensate. The other key is to manage your intensity during the block so you can actually finish it. From that standpoint it helps to start your block at the highest intensity you plan to work and the shortest duration and then work down day by day so the last day is easiest and longest. That works really nicely from both a mental and physical standpoint since every time you finish a workout you know the following one will be easier.

So a block approach to your schedule might look like:

Mon: 25 miles on hills with steady long 10 to 20 minute climbs as hard as you can do them without blowing up. The key is steady and at least 10 minutes. If you go out too hard and have to back way off then start the next one easier. These aren't easy but they shouldn't kill you either. Breathing should be deep and steady, not ragged and out of control but it should take a lot of concentration to stay at this pace. Rest 5 to 10 minutes between efforts and do as many as fits the terrain and the total time/distance goals. If your hills aren't long enough you can either keep pressure on big gears for the descent if the descents are gradual or do these on flatter terrain but make sure you keep the intensity up for at least 10 minutes per effort.

Tue: 25 - 30 miles same sort of terrain but easier. Climb long hills but more comfortably. You should still be concentrating on holding a good steady pace but your legs should feel pretty good and your breathing deep but comfortable.

Wed: 30-40 miles easy hills or flats at a nice tempo pace. This ride is my favorite when I block train. I feel like I'm going pretty fast but my breathing is totally comfortable and my legs feel great. Don't suffer on this ride just ride a quick steady pace that feels fast and fun. Don't just noodle around and get bored but you shouldn't dread this ride it should feel great.

Thur: Work nights
Fri: Work nights
Sat: Work nights

Sun: I'd rest after three 12 hour night shifts at most I'd do an easy hour of spinning with a minute or two of tempo to wake up the legs.

Mon: Repeat last Monday's ride. This is your day for personal bests at the 10, 15 or 20 minute duration so it's kind of like your own personal mini race day. These need to be steady, but the question is how hard can you do them, stay steady and still finish them.

Tue: Repeat last Tuesday or if you're real tired repeat last Wednesday's tempo ride.

Wed: Work days
Thur: Work days
Fri: Work days

Sat: This one's tough. Ideally you'd do the group ride three days away from your work and rest today followed by a wake up ride tomorrow. Since that's not an option I'd do an easy one hour ride today with a few one to five minute wake up the legs efforts. Jam over a couple of hills, pace quick for a few minutes on the flats but only ride about an hour and don't kill yourself. This ride is pretty important after three days off the bike to get you ready for tomorrow. You need to feel great after this ride so really watch your pace and duration but don't skip it unless life just gets in the way. I would never do my hardest longest events after four days off the bike my legs need the wake up and shake up ride.

Sun: 100 miles with group

Mon: Rest (smart)

Tue: 25 miles on hill + Work nights(maybe back off to 15 to 20 miles on hills and make them your normal Tuesday hard 10-20 minute variety. A hard long workout prior to a 12 hour night shift isn't smart but some riding is probably good. If Sunday really tired you out I'd skip this ride entirely and just rest)

Wed: Work nights
Thur: Work nights

Fri: Rest
Sat: Wake up ride like last week, maybe a bit longer since Sunday is shorter but that's only if you feel great. You still need to feel fresh after this ride but it's better to rest two days before a hard effort and do a wake up ride the day before.

Sun: 70 miles with group.

And so on.........

If you manage your blocks well you can probably do the occasional 3 day blocks listed and should definitely be able to do the more common 2 day blocks in your schedule. The key thing is to work down in intensity and if you can up in duration as your blocks progress.

Anyway your situation is tricky but I think you can get more out of your weekly training and still get good rest. If your night job is really physical or otherwise draining you may have to adjust accordingly. Remember that you need good recovery for supercompensation to work. If you're doing some really physical work that leaves you wasted then you need to be realistic about your training as well.

Good luck and keep us posted,
Dave
 
Ok Dave thanks for the reply, never actually thought of training in blocks will try it and see how it goes. I'm planning on doing a thing called the Wicklow 200 (200 km over the wicklow mountains) next month so hopefully some block training will help before that. In the meantime i've taken a few days off the bike, partly to rest and partly cos i'm a bit ****** at going so bad everytime i go out, but i'll be back in the saddle tomorrow ! Thanks again it's appreciated.
 
Best aid I've found for recovery is a carb/protein drink as soon as possible after the event. Powerbar makes a good one in a box, convenient to take with you and keep on ice in your vehicle. Believe it's got 40 grams of carbs, mostly sugar, and 10 grams of whey protein. At home, I just mix whey powder in a big glass of skim milk.