Any success with add on electric motors to Conventional Bikes?



T

TBerk

Guest
I ask because I saw two different bikes (with what looked like two
different motors) in one day. Kind of surprising to see two in about
an hour's span.

Seems a good design might place a small motor behind the seat pole
near the back brake area w/ some batteries slim packed into the
triangle above the pedal cranks; keeps it low and if slim enough the
only side affect other than over all weight might be sail effect from
cross winds.


TBerk
 
B

Brian Huntley

Guest
On Apr 26, 11:38 am, TBerk <[email protected]> wrote:
> I ask because I saw two different bikes (with what looked like two
> different motors) in one day. Kind of surprising to see two in about
> an hour's span.
>
> Seems a good design might place a small motor behind the seat pole
> near the back brake area w/ some batteries slim packed into the
> triangle above the pedal cranks; keeps it low and if slim enough the
> only side affect other than over all weight might be sail effect from
> cross winds.


I've never done it myself, but the only truly successful electric add-
ons to conventional bikes I've seen and heard about have been hub
motors, where you basically swap in a new wheel. A bit pricier than a
"Solex" type friction drive, I expect, but they don't chew up your
tires. And the wattages they're available at mean real acceleration
and hill climbing.
 
N

Nate Nagel

Guest
Brian Huntley wrote:
> On Apr 26, 11:38 am, TBerk <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I ask because I saw two different bikes (with what looked like two
>>different motors) in one day. Kind of surprising to see two in about
>>an hour's span.
>>
>>Seems a good design might place a small motor behind the seat pole
>>near the back brake area w/ some batteries slim packed into the
>>triangle above the pedal cranks; keeps it low and if slim enough the
>>only side affect other than over all weight might be sail effect from
>>cross winds.

>
>
> I've never done it myself, but the only truly successful electric add-
> ons to conventional bikes I've seen and heard about have been hub
> motors, where you basically swap in a new wheel. A bit pricier than a
> "Solex" type friction drive, I expect, but they don't chew up your
> tires. And the wattages they're available at mean real acceleration
> and hill climbing.


That would be a GREAT application for some hybrid-car-esque software and
regen braking...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
 
C

Chalo

Guest
Nate Nagel wrote:
>
> Brian Huntley wrote:
> >
> > I've never done it myself, but the only truly successful electric add-
> > ons to conventional bikes I've seen and heard about have been hub
> > motors, where you basically swap in a new wheel.

>
> That would be a GREAT application for some hybrid-car-esque software and
> regen braking...


Some of them are direct drive with high pole count armatures, and
regen makes some sense for those. Geared hub motors use one-way
clutches, just like we do on our pedal drivetrains-- because for a
bike, the ability to coast freely does a lot more for you than the
ability to recapture braking energy.

Chalo
 
C

Chalo

Guest
TBerk wrote:
>
> I ask because I saw two different bikes (with what looked like two
> different motors) in one day. Kind of surprising to see two in about
> an hour's span.


http://crystalyte.com/
http://bionx.ca/
http://www.cyclone-usa.com/
http://www.izipusa.com/
http://goldenmotor.com/

http://ebikes.ca/
http://electricrider.com/

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=3
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/e-motor-assist/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/power-assist/

> Seems a good design might place a small motor behind the seat pole
> near the back brake area w/ some batteries slim packed into the
> triangle above the pedal cranks;


There's not all that much room there, and potential chain lines to a
rear wheel sprocket are likely to foul the frame. I ride a 27"
frame-- just about the largest factory-made size-- and I was unable to
fit a motor with reduction chain drive there when I built my first e-
bike. I eventually mounted the motor just under the bike's downtube,
with the chain running above and below the left side of the bottom
bracket spindle.

Stokemonkey mounts where you suggest, but it drives the crank, and it
only fits an Xtracycle-equipped bike:

http://cleverchimp.com/products/stokemonkey/

Chalo
 
C

Chalo

Guest
TBerk wrote:
>
> I ask because I saw two different bikes (with what looked like two
> different motors) in one day. Kind of surprising to see two in about
> an hour's span.


http://crystalyte.com/
http://bionx.ca/
http://www.cyclone-usa.com/
http://www.izipusa.com/
http://goldenmotor.com/

http://ebikes.ca/
http://electricrider.com/

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=3
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/e-motor-assist/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/power-assist/

> Seems a good design might place a small motor behind the seat pole
> near the back brake area w/ some batteries slim packed into the
> triangle above the pedal cranks;


There's not all that much room there, and potential chain lines to a
rear wheel sprocket are likely to foul the frame. I ride a 27"
frame-- just about the largest factory-made size-- and I was unable to
fit a motor with reduction chain drive there when I built my first e-
bike. I eventually mounted the motor just under the bike's downtube,
with the chain running above and below the left side of the bottom
bracket spindle.

Stokemonkey mounts where you suggest, but it drives the crank, and it
only fits an Xtracycle-equipped bike:

http://cleverchimp.com/products/stokemonkey/

Chalo
 
R

Ryan Cousineau

Guest
In article
<[email protected]m>,
Chalo <[email protected]> wrote:

> TBerk wrote:
> >
> > I ask because I saw two different bikes (with what looked like two
> > different motors) in one day. Kind of surprising to see two in about
> > an hour's span.


> > Seems a good design might place a small motor behind the seat pole
> > near the back brake area w/ some batteries slim packed into the
> > triangle above the pedal cranks;

>
> There's not all that much room there, and potential chain lines to a
> rear wheel sprocket are likely to foul the frame. I ride a 27"
> frame-- just about the largest factory-made size-- and I was unable to
> fit a motor with reduction chain drive there when I built my first e-
> bike. I eventually mounted the motor just under the bike's downtube,
> with the chain running above and below the left side of the bottom
> bracket spindle.


I saw a homebrew with a clever-looking mount: heavy-duty custom rack
carrying an electric motor directly above the rear wheel. Chain drive
from the motor down to the non-drive side of the hub, where there was a
second freewheel for the motor drive.

I believe the rider was using a LHD BMX cog on the hub, and I assume
(with no certainty) he was using some flavor of flip-flop hub.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."
 
D

DougC

Guest
Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> ...
> I saw a homebrew with a clever-looking mount: heavy-duty custom rack
> carrying an electric motor directly above the rear wheel. Chain drive
> from the motor down to the non-drive side of the hub, where there was a
> second freewheel for the motor drive.
>
> I believe the rider was using a LHD BMX cog on the hub, and I assume
> (with no certainty) he was using some flavor of flip-flop hub.
>


Did it really have freewheels on BOTH sides? Or just sprockets on both
sides?... A number of kits use a chain drive on the left side, but the
sprocket on the wheel is just bolted on, literally through the spokes.
The engine drive side normally just spins all the time.

There are people who use a disk brake hub, and bolt a sprocket to the
disk mount. Also at least one company has made a double-drive hub, with
the normal freewheel on the right and a bolted-on "stationary" sprocket
on the left (Staton kits have these).

Motorized-bike people have been wishing for a double-freewheel hub for a
/long/ time, and I'd not heard of any in production. There are flip-flop
BMX hubs that can take freewheels on both sides but I was informed
(here, quite possibly) that the threading is the same direction on both
sides--so the left side can't be used for driving, unless it's flipped
over to the right.
~
 

Dan Burkhart

New Member
Nov 27, 2003
333
0
0
69
TBerk said:
I ask because I saw two different bikes (with what looked like two
different motors) in one day. Kind of surprising to see two in about
an hour's span.

Seems a good design might place a small motor behind the seat pole
near the back brake area w/ some batteries slim packed into the
triangle above the pedal cranks; keeps it low and if slim enough the
only side affect other than over all weight might be sail effect from
cross winds.


TBerk
The easiest conversion is a front hub motor. I installed this one, a Wilderness Energy 450 watt brushless in my wife's bike.
http://i32.tinypic.com/359b7eu.jpg
It worked well. lots of power and range, but I did not care for how it affected the handling of the bike. The weight of the hub seemed to cause a lot of flexing in the fork,and made what had been a nice,light handling bike in to a clumsy tank.
I improved it somewhat by swapping in a cheapo suspension fork.
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2cr2jb9&s=3
I was concerned about the ability of the fork dropouts to withstand the torque of the axle over the long term, so I fabricated these tabs to re-enforce them.
http://i28.tinypic.com/x55he9.jpg
It complicates wheel removal,of course, but it's worth it for a bit of peace of mind.
All in all, it has worked well for the two years she has been using it, the only problem arising from moisture permeating the controller. A good dose of WD40
looked after that.
I know it's not the best system out there, but it's ok for the price.
Dan Burkhart
www.boomerbicycle.ca
 
R

Ryan Cousineau

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
DougC <[email protected]> wrote:

> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > ...
> > I saw a homebrew with a clever-looking mount: heavy-duty custom rack
> > carrying an electric motor directly above the rear wheel. Chain drive
> > from the motor down to the non-drive side of the hub, where there was a
> > second freewheel for the motor drive.
> >
> > I believe the rider was using a LHD BMX cog on the hub, and I assume
> > (with no certainty) he was using some flavor of flip-flop hub.
> >

>
> Did it really have freewheels on BOTH sides? Or just sprockets on both
> sides?... A number of kits use a chain drive on the left side, but the
> sprocket on the wheel is just bolted on, literally through the spokes.
> The engine drive side normally just spins all the time.


I dug up my photos to review the evidence. It's definitely a LHD
freewheel. Indeed, the drive side uses a multi-speed freewheel.

<http://www.flickr.com/photos/rcousine/2448067142/>

> There are people who use a disk brake hub, and bolt a sprocket to the
> disk mount. Also at least one company has made a double-drive hub, with
> the normal freewheel on the right and a bolted-on "stationary" sprocket
> on the left (Staton kits have these).
>
> Motorized-bike people have been wishing for a double-freewheel hub for a
> /long/ time, and I'd not heard of any in production. There are flip-flop
> BMX hubs that can take freewheels on both sides but I was informed
> (here, quite possibly) that the threading is the same direction on both
> sides--so the left side can't be used for driving, unless it's flipped
> over to the right.


Motorized bike people need to pay more attention to obscure BMX parts,
where the Left-Hand Drive exists:

<https://www.jrbicycles.com/storefront/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=6
54>

The purpose of these off-side drives, aside from looking cool, is to let
riders who prefer to do coping grinds on the right-hand side to do so
unimpeded.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."
 

Dan Burkhart

New Member
Nov 27, 2003
333
0
0
69
Ryan Cousineau said:
In article <[email protected]>,
DougC <[email protected]> wrote:

> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > ...
> > I saw a homebrew with a clever-looking mount: heavy-duty custom rack
> > carrying an electric motor directly above the rear wheel. Chain drive
> > from the motor down to the non-drive side of the hub, where there was a
> > second freewheel for the motor drive.
> >
> > I believe the rider was using a LHD BMX cog on the hub, and I assume
> > (with no certainty) he was using some flavor of flip-flop hub.
> >

>
> Did it really have freewheels on BOTH sides? Or just sprockets on both
> sides?... A number of kits use a chain drive on the left side, but the
> sprocket on the wheel is just bolted on, literally through the spokes.
> The engine drive side normally just spins all the time.


I dug up my photos to review the evidence. It's definitely a LHD
freewheel. Indeed, the drive side uses a multi-speed freewheel.

<http://www.flickr.com/photos/rcousine/2448067142/>

> There are people who use a disk brake hub, and bolt a sprocket to the
> disk mount. Also at least one company has made a double-drive hub, with
> the normal freewheel on the right and a bolted-on "stationary" sprocket
> on the left (Staton kits have these).
>
> Motorized-bike people have been wishing for a double-freewheel hub for a
> /long/ time, and I'd not heard of any in production. There are flip-flop
> BMX hubs that can take freewheels on both sides but I was informed
> (here, quite possibly) that the threading is the same direction on both
> sides--so the left side can't be used for driving, unless it's flipped
> over to the right.


Motorized bike people need to pay more attention to obscure BMX parts,
where the Left-Hand Drive exists:

<https://www.jrbicycles.com/storefront/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=6
54>

The purpose of these off-side drives, aside from looking cool, is to let
riders who prefer to do coping grinds on the right-hand side to do so
unimpeded.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

I have a bike on my floor with a left side freewheel driven by a Currie motor. and a 7 speed freewheel on the right.If you have seen the Schwinn e-bike that Canadian Tire sells, it is exactly the same machine with the Mongoose brand on it. I think the reason I have been unable to sell it is the fact that it is such a piece of **** I cannot bring myself to talk it up.
I've offered it cheap just to get rid of it, but it's still here.
Dan Burkhart
www.boomerbicycle.ca
 
N

N8N

Guest
On Apr 27, 10:16 am, Chalo <[email protected]> wrote:
> Nate Nagel wrote:
>
> > Brian Huntley wrote:

>
> > > I've never done it myself, but the only truly successful electric add-
> > > ons to conventional bikes I've seen and heard about have been hub
> > > motors, where you basically swap in a new wheel.

>
> > That would be a GREAT application for some hybrid-car-esque software and
> > regen braking...

>
> Some of them are direct drive with high pole count armatures, and
> regen makes some sense for those.  Geared hub motors use one-way
> clutches, just like we do on our pedal drivetrains-- because for a
> bike, the ability to coast freely does a lot more for you than the
> ability to recapture braking energy.
>
> Chalo


I was envisioning something completely integrated - e.g. redesigned
brake levers incorporating a potentiometer that controls the regen
braking through the first portion of the pull, and then engages the
actual brakes in the second portion of the pull, that would allow the
bike to completely freewheel down hills if you wanted to build up
speed without pedaling. Certainly not cheap nor easy but would be a
cool idea if someone really wanted to work it out.

nate
 
C

Chalo

Guest
N8N wrote:
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > Some of them are direct drive with high pole count armatures, and
> > regen makes some sense for those. Geared hub motors use one-way
> > clutches, just like we do on our pedal drivetrains-- because for a
> > bike, the ability to coast freely does a lot more for you than the
> > ability to recapture braking energy.

>
> I was envisioning something completely integrated - e.g. redesigned
> brake levers incorporating a potentiometer that controls the regen
> braking through the first portion of the pull, and then engages the
> actual brakes in the second portion of the pull, that would allow the
> bike to completely freewheel down hills if you wanted to build up
> speed without pedaling. Certainly not cheap nor easy but would be a
> cool idea if someone really wanted to work it out.


Rabbit Tool made a system with a two-way throttle, which could be
rolled back for acceleration or rolled forward for progressive regen
braking. It was a good idea in principle, but Sanyo opted to put in a
one-way clutch in the design after they bought it rather than using
regen.

http://www.rabbittool.com/

There is enough drag in a permanent magnet motor, even when it's not
under power, that backdriving it amounts to a major energy loss. An e-
bike system therefore would have to include both a one-way clutch and
an on-demand two-way clutch in order to have both regen and free
coasting. As a bonus, the two-way clutch would allow powered reverse
drive, which is useful for a trike.

Electromagnetic braking has the advantage of being inherently anti-
lock in most circumstances.

Chalo
 
J

JennyB

Guest
On Apr 27, 3:56 pm, Chalo <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> Stokemonkey mounts where you suggest, but it drives the crank, and it
> only fits an Xtracycle-equipped bike:
>
> http://cleverchimp.com/products/stokemonkey/
>

The retro-fit market is still rapidly developing and plagued with
supply problems. Cleverchimp have not been taking any more orders for
the last six months. I am very impressed with the concept, and will be
getting an Xtracycle with a view no either ordering one when they
become available again, or else building the equivalent.

Bottom bracket motors will always be tricky to retrofit, but hub
motors work well enough if you don't need extreme gear range. Another
project to watch for is

http://practicalpedal.com/electricbike/
 
J

JennyB

Guest
On Apr 27, 3:56 pm, Chalo <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> Stokemonkey mounts where you suggest, but it drives the crank, and it
> only fits an Xtracycle-equipped bike:
>
> http://cleverchimp.com/products/stokemonkey/
>

The retro-fit market is still rapidly developing and plagued with
supply problems. Cleverchimp have not been taking any more orders for
the last six months. I am very impressed with the concept, and will be
getting an Xtracycle with a view no either ordering one when they
become available again, or else building the equivalent.

Bottom bracket motors will always be tricky to retrofit, but hub
motors work well enough if you don't need extreme gear range. Another
project to watch for is

http://practicalpedal.com/electricbike/
 
R

Ryan Cousineau

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
Dan Burkhart <[email protected]>
wrote:

> Ryan Cousineau Wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > DougC <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > > > ...
> > > > I saw a homebrew with a clever-looking mount: heavy-duty custom

> > rack
> > > > carrying an electric motor directly above the rear wheel. Chain

> > drive
> > > > from the motor down to the non-drive side of the hub, where there

> > was a
> > > > second freewheel for the motor drive.
> > > >
> > > > I believe the rider was using a LHD BMX cog on the hub, and I

> > assume
> > > > (with no certainty) he was using some flavor of flip-flop hub.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Did it really have freewheels on BOTH sides? Or just sprockets on

> > both
> > > sides?... A number of kits use a chain drive on the left side, but

> > the
> > > sprocket on the wheel is just bolted on, literally through the

> > spokes.
> > > The engine drive side normally just spins all the time.

> >
> > I dug up my photos to review the evidence. It's definitely a LHD
> > freewheel. Indeed, the drive side uses a multi-speed freewheel.
> >
> > <http://www.flickr.com/photos/rcousine/2448067142/>
> >
> > > There are people who use a disk brake hub, and bolt a sprocket to

> > the
> > > disk mount. Also at least one company has made a double-drive hub,

> > with
> > > the normal freewheel on the right and a bolted-on "stationary"

> > sprocket
> > > on the left (Staton kits have these).
> > >
> > > Motorized-bike people have been wishing for a double-freewheel hub

> > for a
> > > /long/ time, and I'd not heard of any in production. There are

> > flip-flop
> > > BMX hubs that can take freewheels on both sides but I was informed
> > > (here, quite possibly) that the threading is the same direction on

> > both
> > > sides--so the left side can't be used for driving, unless it's

> > flipped
> > > over to the right.

> >
> > Motorized bike people need to pay more attention to obscure BMX parts,
> > where the Left-Hand Drive exists:
> >
> > <http://tinyurl.com/3kntpc
> > 54>
> >
> > The purpose of these off-side drives, aside from looking cool, is to
> > let
> > riders who prefer to do coping grinds on the right-hand side to do so
> > unimpeded.
> >
> > --
> > Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
> > "In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
> > "In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

>
> I have a bike on my floor with a left side freewheel driven by a
> Currie motor. and a 7 speed freewheel on the right.If you have seen the
> Schwinn e-bike that Canadian Tire sells, it is exactly the same machine
> with the Mongoose brand on it. I think the reason I have been unable to
> sell it is the fact that it is such a piece of **** I cannot bring
> myself to talk it up.
> I've offered it cheap just to get rid of it, but it's still here.
> Dan Burkhart
> www.boomerbicycle.ca


Either you like the rest of your floor stock better, or I'd like a copy
of your closeout catalog! :).

For those curious, here's the Canadian Tire Schwinn:

<http://www.canadiantire.ca/browse/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT<>prd_id
=845524443296291&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=1408474396672077&bmUID=12094308186
69>

It is rather Goldbergian.

Does the LHD motor connect to a freewheel on the hub, or does it
drag/regenerate (fixed cog) when not powering the bike? Any interesting
details about the parts? I assume the hub is some rather underspecified
flip/flop freewheel hub, possibly using a part originally made for a
tandem with a thread-on drum brake.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."
 

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