Anyone doing just L4 rides?

[Quadsweep]

I am wondering how many of you are doing only L4 riding, not counting warm ups/cool downs?
Due to very limited training time I been doing only L4 for the last month with pretty good success in increasing my FTP. I am them in block fashion, riding 3 days in a row followed by 2 days off. Almost all of it is on the trainer

and I am actually enjoying it

 

[RapDaddyo]

I am wondering how many of you are doing only L4 riding, not counting warm ups/cool downs?
Due to very limited training time I been doing only L4 for the last month with pretty good success in increasing my FTP. Most of it is on the trainer

and I am actually enjoying it

I was doing L4 only for trainer rides for the last 6 weeks or so (not counting warmup, cooldown, recovery between L4 efforts). But, I have recently added L5-L6 efforts to my trainer rides because I have begun to ramp up for a target event. On the road, I almost always do some L5 & L6 efforts because my courses have a number of short climbs followed by descents where it's difficult to maintain an L4 intensity. So, it seems a waste to ride them at L4. Plus, in a race they will almost always require at least L5 pace, if not L6.

 

[wiredued]

I'm an L4 purist on the trainer did I mention I gained 25 watts FTP in two months on the RD double your power in six months plan. I also commute to work in a very subdued winter mode.

 

[whoawhoa]

I am wondering how many of you are doing only L4 riding, not counting warm ups/cool downs?
Due to very limited training time I been doing only L4 for the last month with pretty good success in increasing my FTP. Most of it is on the trainer

and I am actually enjoying it

Do you have a PM?

 

[Quadsweep]

Do you have a PM?

Yup....I have a Kurt Kinetic trainer and it's power meter. My buddy tested the power meter with his power tap and it's dead on with the tap with wattage above 100.

 

[Pureshot78]

Here are some of my recent rides.

 

[watts4speed]

Same here. Only L4 and only on trainer for the last month. About 50% of my total bike time is at L4. Last weekend I went out to a local hill. It's hard to come back to the trainer, or I'm still digging my self out of a hole recovery wise. I rode 90min of L4 on the hill, 3rd day of of a 3 day L4 block. My threshold has gone up steadly for the last month.

 

[TiMan]

Same here. Only L4 and only on trainer for the last month. About 50% of my total bike time is at L4. Last weekend I went out to a local hill. It's hard to come back to the trainer, or I'm still digging my self out of a hole recovery wise. I rode 90min of L4 on the hill, 3rd day of of a 3 day L4 block. My threshold has gone up steadly for the last month.

How are you finding the three days in a row of L4 anyway? Getting better results block training L4 than training in a more conventional manner?
Remember, after three days in a row of L4 you need to take a couple days off to recover.

 

[fastcat]

With the exception of one long group ride a week, all the rest of my training is on a trainer or gym bike doing L4 intervals at the moment.

Which is mainly a function of the short days in this part of the world at this time of year. I don't like these short cold days, but I guess the silver lining is that they are forcing me into some fairly efficient training.

 

[frenchyge]

Remember, after three days in a row of L4 you need to take a couple days off to recover.

Really? What if they are 2x20 workouts, which only generate about 75 TSS each?

With the new ways to measure and objectively analyze training loads, I think it's a good idea to challenge or at least clarify some of the older wisdom like that quoted above. Back in the day it was probably a good idea to be overly conservative, but the newer tools give us a basis to push the envelope a bit more.

 

[watts4speed]

How are you finding the three days in a row of L4 anyway? Getting better results block training L4 than training in a more conventional manner?
Remember, after three days in a row of L4 you need to take a couple days off to recover.

I don't have enough experience to say I'm getting better results or not. Right now I'm trying to find my limit for LL4 hours/week training and see how I respond to it. I seem to get a noticable response to ~60min of 0.91-0.95 sessions, but seem to respond less well to 2x20min at 0.95-1.05 which reduces my total weekly L4 time and makes my legs feel baked. My 3 day LL4 block last week resulted in fatague spilling into this week and I also moved my levels up again based on a new CP test so I'm down by about 1/3 L4 this week.

My impression is I do better with blocks. If I remember correctly Andy C. explained that you can better assure your getting a maximum training impulse before recovering. I also know that if I'm feeling recovered on Friday then I get more training in if I do a 3 day block and start recovering on Monday, since it's easier to push myself to generate the needed power on the weekend for me. Nothing worse than waisting a good rested Friday waiting for the weekend. I'm of course not racing, and building my threshold is my #1 priority, so being fresh Sat/Sun is not a concern right now. I'm also not following a plan that is weekly based, I follow how recovered I feel. I know approximately when I'll be recovered and if I start a planned workout and I'm to tired to get in at least 30min of LL4 I bag it. I don't see this as better than other plans, it's just something that fits me, and the demands for my time.

 

[watts4speed]

Really? What if they are 2x20 workouts, which only generate about 75 TSS each?

With the new ways to measure and objectively analyze training loads, I think it's a good idea to challenge or at least clarify some of the older wisdom like that quoted above. Back in the day it was probably a good idea to be overly conservative, but the newer tools give us a basis to push the envelope a bit more.

One observation I've made recently after using the "new tools" is that if I do L4 sessions that start to generate DOMS (not a major case), I seem to need more recovery than what the TSS would indicate.

As an example, lets say I do an L4 session that totals 230 TSS, I'll start getting sore at the end of the next day and might not be recovered enough to ride L4 even the following day. It's almost like any workout done with significant DOMS generates more real fatague per TSS point in my experience.

Contrast that with the 3 day block of L4 with 145, 85, 197 TSS where I got 3.3 hours of L4 since I was able to avoid a case of DOMS the first two days. The 2nd day while at L4 was effectively a recovery day. If I had switched the order of the days and done 197 85 145 I don't believe I could have done this block even though the TSS was the same.

Unfortunately when I'm having fun racking up L4 (it happens) it's hard to stop and I blow past my limit and then it's time to take a few days off.

 

[TiMan]

Really? What if they are 2x20 workouts, which only generate about 75 TSS each?

With the new ways to measure and objectively analyze training loads, I think it's a good idea to challenge or at least clarify some of the older wisdom like that quoted above. Back in the day it was probably a good idea to be overly conservative, but the newer tools give us a basis to push the envelope a bit more.

I was referring to Watts4speed and his training. He isn't doing just 2 X 20 at FTP .....in his example he did 90 minutes of L4 on a hill on day three of a three day L4 block. That's quite a good bit I think.....and if he is doing this much on day 3 then he is very likely to be doing at least that much on day 1-2 IF he is indeed "block training L4".

So lets just say he did 90 minutes of L4 three days in a row then he is going to need a couple days to recover. He might be able to get away with one day for a while, if he is very young and in really good condition, but even then the load will catch up to him AND BURY HIM in a few weeks.

Besides Frenchygye, you can't just look at TSS alone when figuring recoverfy time needed...... you have to consider the training stress from of multiple days of L4 training in a row....and it's not linear in it's affect. TSS recovery scale from "The Book" does not factor this into the equation.
If you are doing a lot of L4, which it seems Watts4speed is doing, and doing three days in a row you are going to need a couple days of recovery riding or off days in order to recover and get stronger. It is always better to on the conservative side when it comes to recovery, especially when block training.
This is where "performance Manager" would come in handy even for those that are "in tune" with their body signals.

 

[zaskar]

Are you inside his body knowing what it needs? i think the true test if you need recovery or not is to look at the power meter. if you cant hold your target power for the work out, go home and rest. if you can, why rest?

 

[TiMan]

Are you inside his body knowing what it needs? i think the true test if you need recovery or not is to look at the power meter. if you cant hold your target power for the work out, go home and rest. if you can, why rest?

That's not a good idea UNLESS you are extremely "in tune" with your body.
WHY?>>>>because the mind can force the body, especially at L4 intensity, and if done frequently you WILL over train. IF you stopped training AS SOON AS you felt you could not hold the power without a great deal on "mind power" then you would probably be safe BUT you better admit to yourself that "you are done" and in need of recovery time. It has been my experience with my clients that they will force the ride way beyond this point and especially with L4 work.

It's a lot safer to do what you suggest with L5 work.... easier to SEE your limit with L5 work and STOP when the power is a problem but not with L4 work. Push past this point once or twice and you might be fine...do it frequently and you'll be toast and go backwards. If it has been a three day block and you pushed it to the this point then you will need more than one day to recover for sure.

I was taking into consideration that Watts4speed did a three day L4 block and on his last day he did 90 minutes at L4 climbing, which was probably at at least 95% FTP since this is how most of us train climbs. So as I said in the above post his day 1 and 2 were most likely pretty high in L4 volume too, IF he is indeed block training since in block training you don't increase the load on each successive day...at most you leave it the same and usually decrease load a bit.

 

[frenchyge]

Besides Frenchygye, you can't just look at TSS alone when figuring recoverfy time needed...... you have to consider the training stress from of multiple days of L4 training in a row....and it's not linear in it's affect.

Ok, this is a silly question, but what is the non-linear nature of the training stress of multiple days of L4 training in a row? IOW, what model do you use to describe the training stress of multiple L4 training sessions in a row?

It's easy to say don't ride when one's legs feel tired, but I can still perform quality L4 or L5 workouts when my legs feel tired. If I listened to that little sluggish feeling then I'd be missing out on some good training.

It is always better to on the conservative side when it comes to recovery, especially when block training.

Sure, but how conservative should we be? Should we take a couple days off 'just in case' and 'better safe than sorry', or should we try to assess how much stress we've acquired and how much our bodies can recover in a day?

I understand that proper recovery is important, but I'd bet that most of the riders who post here are getting *plenty* of recovery just in their normal workout routine. Now, if there are people here pushing 800+ TSS/wk on a regular basis, then they may want to be a little more mindful than I'm suggesting. But for those who are below that level, I don't think it makes a hill of beans whether they're working in L4, L5, blocking their workouts, etc. There's plenty of recovery time already built into the rest of their week.

This is where "performance Manager" would come in handy even for those that are "in tune" with their body signals.

FYI, Performance Manager just looks at TSS.

 

[TiMan]

Ok, this is a silly question, but what is the non-linear nature of the training stress of multiple days of L4 training in a row? IOW, what model do you use to describe the training stress of multiple L4 training sessions in a row?

Everything doesn't need a model bro. My model here .....30 years of racing.....13 years national Cat 1 and 10 years professional coaching.

It's easy to say don't ride when one's legs feel tired, but I can still perform quality L4 or L5 workouts when my legs feel tired. If I listened to that little sluggish feeling then I'd be missing out on some good training.

It has little to do with legs feeling fatigued.....it has to do with systemic stress. The idea IS to actually over reach, to feel fatigued by the end of a block, but not to go too far. Trouble is few men know when to stop when they are "on a roll".
Physiologist David Morris, who is a guru of block training, recommends that one take 2-3 days off or 2-3 days of L1 riding after a three day block. That assumes that you are pushing the envelope as you should when block training. From his "studies" he found that elite Cat 1 riders could ride 3-4 days in a block before needing to take recovery days. The number of recovery days needed for these men where equal to or almost equal to the block itself.
This is his recommendation for all riders block training and it is based on "feel" but you certainly need at least two days off after a hard three day block...again, if you indeed stressing yourself well.

Sure, but how conservative should we be? Should we take a couple days off 'just in case' and 'better safe than sorry', or should we try to assess how much stress we've acquired and how much our bodies can recover in a day?

Yes, you are right BUT most guys don't do that well...this has been my experience. The mind often forces you out the door to train when you should be resting. It's pretty smart to take a couple days off after a hard three day block...hard for you individually that is.
The idea is to recover totally from the block, or damn close, so the body can totally supercompensate from the training stress and get stronger.

I understand that proper recovery is important, but I'd bet that most of the riders who post here are getting *plenty* of recovery just in their normal workout routine. Now, if there are people here pushing 800+ TSS/wk on a regular basis, then they may want to be a little more mindful than I'm suggesting. But for those who are below that level, I don't think it makes a hill of beans whether they're working in L4, L5, blocking their workouts, etc. There's plenty of recovery time already built into the rest of their week.

Most men over train bro...the problem with trainees is not effort it is recovery. I bet most guys on this forum would be on the trainer at 4 am if they had to....it's not lack of effort that is missing it is inadequate recovery time coupled with genetics that is the issue. Can't do anything about genetics but you can do something about recovery.
A relatively low weekly TSS can be tough on some guys...depends on their general fitness level as well as all the other stress in their life such as a wife, kids, physical job etc etc.

FYI, Performance Manager just looks at TSS.

Sure.....and regarding recovery
"the scale doesn't take into consideration the impact of multiple days of training in a row (and as such has really been superseded by the Performance Manager, which was the aim of TSS all along"
Andrew Coggan

 

[watts4speed]

Physiologist David Morris, who is a guru of block training, recommends that one take 2-3 days off or 2-3 days of L1 riding after a three day block. That assumes that you are pushing the envelope as you should when block training. From his "studies" he found that elite Cat 1 riders could ride 3-4 days in a block before needing to take recovery days. The number of recovery days needed for these men where equal to or almost equal to the block itself.

A little more data on the 3 day block I did and the subsequent recovery time. It does seem to fit the Morris guidelines above.

The first day of the block started with a Max 20min test (Ugg, 22 minutes actually). Then 20min and 25min at 95% CP. Total 145 TSS

2nd day I felt near the edge so I did 35 min. total at 92% CP. Total 85 TSS

3rd day felt better so I did an hour at 95% then another 37 min at 92%. Stopped because I wasn't able to maintain the power in the L4 range any more. Total 197 TSS

It then took about 3 days before I felt normal again and the pedals were easy to turn during L4.

This does seems to fit the Morris model of training. I'm not an expert by far but this seems to work as long as I don't dig too deep in the middle of a block such that my DOMS kicks in. I'm in that state right now :-(. This training thing seems to require a bit of self control, all of which I loose when I ride out doors. Too much fun, too much fun

 

[TiMan]

A little more data on the 3 day block I did and the subsequent recovery time. It does seem to fit the Morris guidelines above.

The first day of the block started with a Max 20min test (Ugg, 22 minutes actually). Then 20min and 25min at 95% CP. Total 145 TSS

2nd day I felt near the edge so I did 35 min. total at 92% CP. Total 85 TSS

3rd day felt better so I did an hour at 95% then another 37 min at 92%. Stopped because I wasn't able to maintain the power in the L4 range any more. Total 197 TSS

It then took about 3 days before I felt normal again and the pedals were easy to turn during L4.

This does seems to fit the Morris model of training. I'm not an expert by far but this seems to work as long as I don't dig too deep in the middle of a block such that my DOMS kicks in. I'm in that state right now :-(. This training thing seems to require a bit of self control, all of which I loose when I ride out doors. Too much fun, too much fun

Here's some more specifics from Morris.

Block volume normally decreases each successive day.
Interval length often is decreased. This gives a mental break.
With the decreased interval length Morris does like some of his guys to increase power a bit with L4 work and always more so with L5 block work.
On the third day a climb is helpful for L4 blocks as this helps you keep the power up and is mentally easier.

Morris says that the biggest mistake you can make is not allowing for enough recovery ride days and or off days following a block. Three hard days need at least 2 days of recovery riding or off days...and most of the time three days are needed to fully recover and supercompensate.

However, you also have to "push the envelope" as I mentioned before.....you need to be over reaching a bit by the end of the block.


For you try this.....for starters.
day one.....3 X 30 at 95% FTP
day two.........3 X 20 at 95%
day three....2-3 X20 at 95-98%....maybe a 20 minute climb if you have one.


I have a top Cat 1 rider doing the following with great results.
day one 4 X 25 at 95%
day two 3 X30 at 95%
day three 2 X 30 and 1 X 20 at 95-98%
day four...optional, based on fatigue level...1 hour at high L2 and 45 minutes L3.

Then the first day after the block he does 60 minutes low L1, then the next day he does 45 minutes L1 and the next day he is off the bike. He normally likes to take three days to recover and always three if he does a forth day in the block.