Anyone here built their own wheels?

[ritcho]

I'd like to give it a go. I'm good enough at replacing spokes and truing after a repair. I think I can follow directions and I'm not in a rush.

I need to know things like:
What components are ok?
Where did you buy 'em?
How much did it cost? Looking at some online shops suggests ready-made wheels are pretty competitive in price. Maybe some readers out there know where a better deal can be found.

The proposed wheel would be a 700c road wheel to take a 20-23mm tyre.

Just a thought...

Ritch

 

[flyingdutch]

Originally posted by ritcho
I'd like to give it a go. I'm good enough at replacing spokes and truing after a repair. I think I can follow directions and I'm not in a rush.

I need to know things like:
What components are ok?
Where did you buy 'em?
How much did it cost? Looking at some online shops suggests ready-made wheels are pretty competitive in price. Maybe some readers out there know where a better deal can be found.

The proposed wheel would be a 700c road wheel to take a 20-23mm tyre.

Just a thought...

Ritch

hmmm. dark arts stuff

i think SuzyJ and BikeSpoiler may have been referred to as holders of such wizadry...

 

[Shane Stanley]

In article <M%[email protected]>,
flyingdutch <[email protected]> wrote:

> hmmm. dark arts stuff

Not at all (he says, not having done it himself yet, mind).
All you need to know is at somewhere like
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html, or better
still, get hold of Jobst's 'The Bicycle Wheel'.

--
Shane Stanley

 

[K&C Russell]

"ritcho" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> I'd like to give it a go. I'm good enough at replacing
> spokes and truing after a repair. I think I can follow
> directions and I'm not in a rush.
>
> I need to know things like: What components are ok? Where
> did you buy 'em? How much did it cost? Looking at some
> online shops suggests ready- made wheels are pretty
> competitive in price. Maybe some readers out there know
> where a better deal can be found.
>
> The proposed wheel would be a 700c road wheel to take a
> 20-23mm tyre.
>
> Just a thought...
>
> Ritch
>
>
>
> --
>
Hi Ritch,

I have built them and raced on them and not had to true
them. I dont think you are going to save much money building
the wheels but there is something special about
riding/racing your own wheel.

I think you need to be patient and able to follow directions
(Sheldon Brown or Jobst Brandt "The Bicycle Wheel"). Cost
will vary with the quality of components and shopping around
will save $$$. My 700C wheels use butted spokes ($70), Open
Pro rims ($180) and Ultegra hubs (A$100 ex USA on special).
This cost around $350 for the pair and extra $100 for 2 Pro
Race tyres/tubes.

In addition it helps to have a wheel jig and dishing
tool (~$100) but you can build without them in the frame
or an old fork.

Once you understand the process, you can build different
patterns, disk brake MTBs etc without too much trouble.

It is not as difficult as you might think.

Kevin

 

[John Henderson]

"K&C Russell" wrote:

> I think you need to be patient and able to follow
> directions (Sheldon Brown or Jobst Brandt "The Bicycle
> Wheel").

I've been building my own wheels (infrequently, as the need
has arisen) for 25 years.

But having read many of Jobst's articles, I'd really like to
get a copy of his book. Does anyone know of someone with
stock of /The Bicycle Wheel/ (preferably Australian)?

John

 

[Shane Stanley]

In article <[email protected]>,
John Henderson <[email protected]> wrote:

> Does anyone know of someone with stock of /The Bicycle
> Wheel/ (preferably Australian)?

I couldn't find an Australian stockist. Ended up going to
amazon.com.

--
Shane Stanley

 

[mfhor]

Originally posted by John Henderson
"K&C Russell" wrote:

> I think you need to be patient and able to follow
> directions (Sheldon Brown or Jobst Brandt "The Bicycle
> Wheel").

I've been building my own wheels (infrequently, as the need
has arisen) for 25 years.

But having read many of Jobst's articles, I'd really like to
get a copy of his book. Does anyone know of someone with
stock of /The Bicycle Wheel/ (preferably Australian)?

John

I got a copy off a friend, and I have to say, he's incredibly opinionated. There are better manuals for those of us who are just starting out. Rob Van der Plas is a good author to start with, Sheldon Brown is fun (but also a bit opinionated), and if you can get hold of Ian Christie's crusty old hand-illustrated tome, that's where I first cut my teeth.

The most important thing in building good wheels is trying to get EVEN SPOKE TENSION. Say that five times before you go to bed, and you'll have got it. DT and others make a very expensive spoke tension gauges, but they are not necessary for the occasional set of wheels. Al the below suggestions may help you get more even spoke tension in the rear wheel, critical for longevity and low spoke breakage.

For your first set, 32 spokes per wheel, 3 cross pattern is an uncomplicated beginning. Get good spokes - DT, Sapim, Wheelsmith are readily available in Oz. Use Damon Rinard's online spoke calculator (or download his freeware Excel spreadsheet) for lengths, round them down to the nearest even mm.
DT online calculator is a disaster, which is a shame, because they are my favourite spokes.

Don't use ultra thin D/B or bladed spokes for your first wheels, tho' 2/1.8/2 mm spokes are great for ride quality and spoke longevity.

Good rims are stiff and true out of the box. 420 grams is a good weight. Eyelets, with today's alloys, aren't strictly necessary. OCR, or OSB for the rear rim, especially if you are heavy, powerful, is a good idea. Check Ritchey/Velocity/Bontrager website for details. Ritchey catalogue is a .pdf download with good information.

Ritchey Zero system hubs are also a really good idea for keeping the back wheel true, esp. if you use Campag drivetrains with their radical dishing of the rear wheel.

I am not an ad for Ritchey, although I really like their product. I also really like DT spokes and hubs (Hugi is now incorporated). Mavic rims are good, but their lighter ones crack a bit more often then I'd like.

Use really good rimtape. Velox/Zefal cloth sticky tape seems to be the best.

Lube both the heads and threads of the nipple with chainlube after you have laced the wheel up, in the truing jig. Others use DriLube, or Spoke Prep, but all seem to work equally well.

Dish the wheel (front and back), tighten, true, destress, check dish, tighten, true, destress, true, destress, final true is the rough order I use when building, then put the rimtape/tyre/tube/cassette on and go for a short ride. Have another look at the tension and roundness of the wheel after this. Retrue if necessary - you don't need to take the tyre off unless it is radically out of round.

Tighten nipples up with a close fitting spoke-key. If you need to take them to a shop post first attempt, you will annoy the mechanic no end with rounded nipples. You may need to do this. Don't be bashful - we all need bailing out of our technical malfeasances at some stage

Good on you for having a go.

MH

 

[suzyj]

Originally posted by ritcho:
> I'd like to give it a go.

Good deal. It's not nearly as hard to do as you'd think.

> What components are ok?

My standard hubs are Campy Chorus. You'd prolly be best with Shimano 105 or Ultegra. I've always had joy sticking with major manufacturer hubs, as they generally use better bearings.

Can't go past bog standard Mavic Open-pro rims (in silver). Tough, relatively light, not especially expensive, and good to build with. Failing them, any eyeletted rim is good.

I like 14/15 guage DT stainless spokes. I've also enjoyed using Sapim. Go for butted spokes though, as they actually make a tougher (more fatigue resistant) wheel than straight guage, and are lighter to boot.

> Where did you buy 'em?

Hubs: Mailorder from UK or US. I like Deeside cycles in the UK, Sheldon (Harris) and Peter Chisholm (Vecchios) in the US. Generally the UK is cheaper, but the US guys can get obscure stuff for you (like my Suzue fixed hubs).

I buy my rims and spokes locally, either from the LBS (Cheeky Monkey are good eggs) or somewhere like Dean Woods or Phantom Cycles. Postage can hurt on rims.

> How much did it cost?

Hubs are from $150 to $400 odd for the pair. Rims are around $220 for the pair, spokes about $100 odd for both wheels.

> Looking at some online shops suggests ready-made wheels are
> pretty competitive in price.

Ready made wheels typically have either not enough spokes (makes them cheaper to assemble) or poorly tensioned spokes. Hand made is _much_ better for wheels.

I have all the kit required; truing stand, linseed oil, spoke keys, etc. plus have done perhaps twenty wheels over the years. If you like I can help you assemble them.

Regards,

Suzy

 

[Hippy]

"mfhor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

<snip mfhor's cool wheel building tips>

Kingsley, do you think this should go in the faq?

hippy

 

[mfhor]

Originally posted by suzyj

Good deal. It's not nearly as hard to do as you'd think.

> What components are ok?

My standard hubs are Campy Chorus. You'd prolly be best with Shimano 105 or Ultegra. I've always had joy sticking with major manufacturer hubs, as they generally use better bearings.

Just be really careful with hubs. Campag (only Septics say Campy - sounds like Queer Eye for the Straight Bike) are NOT, NEVER HAVE, AND WILL NEVER BE (and proud of it too) compatible with Shimano, except by accident (viz 9-speed wheels). Mavic hubs in their built-up wheels will allow a cassette body swapover, as will a few other brands. Check before purchase.

Can't go past bog standard Mavic Open-pro rims (in silver). Tough, relatively light, not especially expensive, and good to build with. Failing them, any eyeletted rim is good.

And some non-eyeletted: Ritchey, some Velocity, Ambrosio, Vuelta etc., Torricelli in the US are getting a good rap.

I like 14/15 guage DT stainless spokes. I've also enjoyed using Sapim. Go for butted spokes though, as they actually make a tougher (more fatigue resistant) wheel than straight guage, and are lighter to boot.


> Where did you buy 'em?

Hubs: Mailorder from UK or US. I like Deeside cycles in the UK, Sheldon (Harris) and Peter Chisholm (Vecchios) in the US. Generally the UK is cheaper, but the US guys can get obscure stuff for you (like my Suzue fixed hubs).

I buy my rims and spokes locally, either from the LBS (Cheeky Monkey are good eggs) or somewhere like Dean Woods or Phantom Cycles. Postage can hurt on rims.

> How much did it cost?

Hubs are from $150 to $400 odd for the pair. Rims are around $220 for the pair, spokes about $100 odd for both wheels.

> Looking at some online shops suggests ready-made wheels are
> pretty competitive in price.

Ready made wheels typically have either not enough spokes (makes them cheaper to assemble) or poorly tensioned spokes. Hand made is _much_ better for wheels.

Have to disagree with you there. A 16/20/24 spoke setup, or combination of the above patterns has to be built spot-on to survive. I normally recommend that anything less than 28 spokes only be used for weekend riding - racing or posing, whichever takes your fancy. Some of the high-end (expensive) ready-made wheels have been done on state of the art building machines, and finished off by hand by v.experienced builders.
Seems like the Ritchey and Wheelcraft (Dirtworks) wheels are good value - performance for money (weight, wind resistance, build integrity, lack of brand-name ********).

Mid-price off the shelf wheels can be good value, if the components are OK - but they need to be retensioned before sale for maximum life.

MH

BTW - Spoke lube: linseed oil? Yuk. Not enough shear strength under compression loading. IM(H?)O.

MH

 

[suzyj]

Originally posted by mfhor:

> Just be really careful with hubs. Campag are NOT,
> NEVER HAVE, AND WILL NEVER BE (and proud of it
> too) compatible with Shimano, except by accident
> (viz 9-speed wheels).

9 speed Campy and 9 speed Shimano are pretty close to the same spacing. I've known people with Shimano drivetrains who run Campy wheels, simply because they prefer them. Using a few Shimano 9 or Campy 10 speed spacers in the stack gets the sprocket spacing to Shimano spec.

> And some non-eyeletted: Ritchey, some Velocity,
> Ambrosio, Vuelta etc., Torricelli in the US are getting
> a good rap.

Eyelets are good. The only reason not to use them is to make the rim cheaper to assemble. They make truing the wheel considerably easier, as they act as a hard bearing surface under the nipple.

> Have to disagree with you there. A 16/20/24
> spoke setup, or combination of the above patterns
> has to be built spot-on to survive.

Dunno what you're disagreeing with. I agree that low spoke count wheels have to be built well with very high spoke tension. Trouble is, to sustain the high spoke tension you need heavier rims, so there's no advantage, except for lower assembly costs. The disadvantages are considerable. I've seen a number of people with low spoke count wheels stop riding because of a broken spoke.

> BTW - Spoke lube: linseed oil? Yuk. Not enough
> shear strength under compression loading. IM(H?)O.

Sounds like garbage to me. Linseed is very useful for oiling spoke threads and nipple seats. It provides good lubrication while you're truing the wheel, then sets slightly tacky, to prevent nipples loosening off if you're slack and don't keep your wheels properly tensioned. It needs no shear strength at all, especially under compressive loading, as it's acting as a lubricant.

And even better than that, a bottle of Linseed oil costs a few dollars from any old arts supply house, and is enough to keep you going all your life, unlike the magic voodoo spoke prep products that bike shops sell.

Regards,

Suzy

 

[mfhor]

Originally posted by suzyj
Originally posted by mfhor:

> Just be really careful with hubs. Campag are NOT,
> NEVER HAVE, AND WILL NEVER BE (and proud of it
> too) compatible with Shimano, except by accident
> (viz 9-speed wheels).

9 speed Campy and 9 speed Shimano are pretty close to the same spacing. I've known people with Shimano drivetrains who run Campy wheels, simply because they prefer them. Using a few Shimano 9 or Campy 10 speed spacers in the stack gets the sprocket spacing to Shimano spec.

And how do you determine that? Suck it and see? You can waste a lot of time doing that, unless you've got an up to date copy of Sutherland's close by, or an easier solution, like getting the right hubs for the right drivetrain. And why would they prefer them? Coz they didn't want to stump up for new wheels? Dishing asymmetry is much less in Shimano hubs. It's a problem to eliminate shifting glitches in drivetrains at the best of times, and jerry-rigging your own cassette stack with combinations of 8/9/10-spd is a fairly hit and miss affair. Even the cog thicknesses are different, and as I said, sometimes the gaps co-incide closely enough to allow them to work together, but often, over the total width of a stack, the resulting .2 or .3 mm difference can make the choice and maintenance of the rest of the drivetrain frustrating.

> And some non-eyeletted: Ritchey, some Velocity,
> Ambrosio, Vuelta etc., Torricelli in the US are getting
> a good rap.

Eyelets are good. The only reason not to use them is to make the rim cheaper to assemble. They make truing the wheel considerably easier, as they act as a hard bearing surface under the nipple.

And not all non-eyelets are bad. Thin pressed steel is about as hard as anodised alloy, as the head of the nipple sees it. As I said, newer, harder, stronger alloys don't deform or crack at spoke holes like older alloys you may be familiar with do. Yes, eyelets are good for thin rim walls, but thin rim walls are prone to cracking at the eyelets anyway.

> Have to disagree with you there. A 16/20/24
> spoke setup, or combination of the above patterns
> has to be built spot-on to survive.

Dunno what you're disagreeing with. I agree that low spoke count wheels have to be built well with very high spoke tension. Trouble is, to sustain the high spoke tension you need heavier rims, so there's no advantage, except for lower assembly costs. The disadvantages are considerable. I've seen a number of people with low spoke count wheels stop riding because of a broken spoke.

Not necessarily heavier, but stiffer for a given section of rim arc. The key is the ability to withstand high tension is superior material properties (stiffness), and EVEN SPOKE TENSION. Off Centre Rims. Respaced hub flanges. Better design and quality control of spokes. No black art. Just materials science.

Fewer spokes do NOT mean lower assembly costs. You have to take time to incrementally tension LSC (low spoke count ) wheels, rather than in just 2 or 3 goes. If you do lots of riding on LSC wheels, you're asking for trouble, unless you have a spares vehicle somewhere behind you. They're not for that. They're for racing and posing, as I said.

What about rotating weight (accelaration), and wind resistance? This is the whole reason why low spoke count wheels exist. No good for plugging over potholes, but great for a fast 90km slug into a side/headwind.

> BTW - Spoke lube: linseed oil? Yuk. Not enough
> shear strength under compression loading. IM(H?)O.

Sounds like garbage to me. Linseed is very useful for oiling spoke threads and nipple seats. It provides good lubrication while you're truing the wheel, then sets slightly tacky, to prevent nipples loosening off if you're slack and don't keep your wheels properly tensioned. It needs no shear strength at all, especially under compressive loading, as it's acting as a lubricant.

And even better than that, a bottle of Linseed oil costs a few dollars from any old arts supply house, and is enough to keep you going all your life, unlike the magic voodoo spoke prep products that bike shops sell.

Hang on, you're showing your biases. Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it's garbage. Why be rude?

All the last 40 years of lubrication chemistry is voodoo? Wasn't it you who was praising name brand hubs because their bearings are good - including, not least importantly, the excellent grease they put in them nowadays?

If a load is applied to a metal object, pushing it against another, then friction results if the two metal objects are forced to slide over one another, yes? This is compression, yes? Shear is the sideways loading on the liquid membrane between the two. The vegetable oils in Linseed oil are not very resistant to the shear applied by the nipple head via the oil to the rim, or the nipple via the oil to the spoke thread, the membrane breaks down, and metal to metal contact results, leading to binding (micro-welding) of the two parts.

Linseed oil is full of non-slippy particles that eventually form the gluey residue. Even this is not a good thread-locker.
When the volatile parts of the oil have evaporated, leaving behind the rest, the glug is there for life. It makes subsequent truing of the wheel very hit and miss, especially if it gets hot, as the residue breaks down into a powdery mess, and there is no more of the slippery fraction of the oil left. And you can't apply any more lube if you want to retrue later, 'coz the glug has taken up all the capilliary space for the new lube to get into. I prefer something a bit more reliable, and you can buy DriLube from the hardware for $2.20 a stick.

You wouldn't have an ancestor called Ned, would you? N. Ludd, esq.?

Not all new stuff is bad. If it were, we'd still be riding screw-on 5 speed 36/40 hole solid axle wheels. With linseed oil as nipple lube.

Regards,

Suzy

Mark "tried and true is good, but intelligently engineered is better" Horner

 

[suzyj]

Originally posted by mfhor:

> And how do you determine that? Suck it and see?

Aren't we gunning for a fight? For "has anyone got a wheel" use, like you get in races when someone punctures, the 0.2mm difference per sprocket is small enough that the guy riding probably won't notice it's different.

Otherwise, a quick glance at Sheldon Browns website tells you that the spacing for Campy 9 is 4.55, whereas that for Shimano 9 is 4.34, so knocking 0.2mm per spacer off will make a Campy cassette mesh perfectly on a Shimano derailleur.

Or in simple English, substitute a few 10 speed spacers in the stack. There's about 1mm play in the upper derailluer pulley anyway, so it will work nicely.

> And not all non-eyelets are bad. Thin pressed steel is about as hard as
> anodised alloy, as the head of the nipple sees it. As I said, newer, harder,
> stronger alloys don't deform or crack at spoke holes like older alloys you may
> be familiar with do. Yes, eyelets are good for thin rim walls, but thin rim
> walls are prone to cracking at the eyelets anyway.

Why _not_ use an eyelet, except for reducing cost? Eyelets spread the load over a greater section of rim, allowing a thinner rim to be used with higher spoke tension. That means the rim weighs less, so the wheel then weighs less.

> The key is the ability to withstand high tension is superior material
> properties (stiffness), and EVEN SPOKE TENSION. Off Centre Rims.
> Respaced hub flanges. Better design and quality control of spokes. No black
> art. Just materials science.

I agree 100%. The difference in tension between drive and non-drive spokes in a 9 or 10 speed wheel is crazy. I reckon we should go back to seven speed. That was plenty. Even better, my fixed wheel bikes have perfectly even spoke tension right and left.

> All the last 40 years of lubrication chemistry is voodoo?

If I for a moment believed that chemistry went into the stuff that the LBS sells, both for oiling your chain and for more obscure applications like oiling spoke threads, then I'd agree. However I'll remain comfortable in the knowledge that marketing hype is the main ingredient in pretty much all these things.

Linseed oil works extremely well, is environmentaly friendly, easily obtainable, and cheap.

> You wouldn't have an ancestor called Ned, would you? N. Ludd, esq.?

> Not all new stuff is bad. If it were, we'd still be riding screw-on 5 speed
> 36/40 hole solid axle wheels. With linseed oil as nipple lube.

Stuff that. Both my nicest bikes are fixed wheel. One even has 32 spokes in the front and 40 in the rear.

Cheers,

Suzy

 

[Graeme]

suzyj <[email protected]> wrote in news:T%rEc.86174$HT5.50379
@fe43.usenetserver.com:

> Linseed oil works extremely well, is environmentaly
> friendly, easily obtainable, and cheap.

Not tried that, but I use chainsaw oil on all the relevant
bits of my bike. Also pretty cheap and you're not paying for
marketing hype. Environmentally friendly? Hmmm... maybe if
all the cyclists switched to using chainsaw oil there'd be a
world shortage meaning no more logging of old growth forests
due to gummed up chainsaws ;-)

Graeme

 

[K&C Russell]

"Shane Stanley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, John Henderson
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Does anyone know of someone with stock of /The Bicycle
> > Wheel/ (preferably Australian)?
>
> I couldn't find an Australian stockist. Ended up going to
> amazon.com.
>
> --
> Shane Stanley

I picked up my copy at the Tech Bookshop in Swanston St
Melbourne. http://www.techbooks.com.au/ This indicates that
it is no longer available, it may still be worth a call as
they may be able to order it in.

Kevin

 

[mfhor]

Originally posted by suzyj
Originally posted by mfhor:

> And how do you determine that? Suck it and see?

Aren't we gunning for a fight? For "has anyone got a wheel" use, like you get in races when someone punctures, the 0.2mm difference per sprocket is small enough that the guy riding probably won't notice it's different.

That's in ideal circumstances. What about cassette stack offset from the locknut, i.e., where the 11 or 12 tooth cog is relative to where the derailleur starts its swing? Anyway, when I race/d, it's usually your own spare wheels you're pulling out of the spares van.

Otherwise, a quick glance at Sheldon Browns website tells you that the spacing for Campy 9 is 4.55, whereas that for Shimano 9 is 4.34, so knocking 0.2mm per spacer off will make a Campy cassette mesh perfectly on a Shimano derailleur.

Yes, but the difference is cumulative all the way up the stack, so what starts off as .2 mm down the bottom turns into 1 or 2 mm at the top. Most drivetrains, except old Suntour ones retrofitted with Shimano jockey wheels (you can have that one for nothing ) won't tolerate the difference and shift consistently well.

Or in simple English, substitute a few 10 speed spacers in the stack. There's about 1mm play in the upper derailluer pulley anyway, so it will work nicely.

From acceptably under ideal conditions (i.e. no mud, rain, lack of lube, bent derailleur hanger, sticky cables, worn chain/cogs etc.) to very hit and miss, in my experience. I don't recommend it to anyone starting from scratch. Get the right hubs for the right drivetrain. You'll save all these semi-circular arguments.

> And not all non-eyelets are bad. Thin pressed steel is about as hard as
> anodised alloy, as the head of the nipple sees it. As I said, newer, harder,
> stronger alloys don't deform or crack at spoke holes like older alloys you may
> be familiar with do. Yes, eyelets are good for thin rim walls, but thin rim
> walls are prone to cracking at the eyelets anyway.

Why _not_ use an eyelet, except for reducing cost? Eyelets spread the load over a greater section of rim, allowing a thinner rim to be used with higher spoke tension. That means the rim weighs less, so the wheel then weighs less.

It's swings and roundabouts. Cost/weight/stiffness tradeoff. The actual manufacturing process of inserting the eyelets into the rim applies stress to the spoke hole, especially in heat-treated alloys, possibly causing stress risers in the material. Eyelets weigh grams, especially the extended Mavic ones. If it's a midprice rim, the inside double eyelet (if fitted) will not be stainless steel, and will corrode, and have the effect of seizing the head of the nipple to the eyelet in watery circumstances. Yes, you have to put more material in the spoke bed area, but if you don't eyelets wont stop it cracking. i've seen some nifty computer stress diagrams of different rims. You'd be surprised as to which loaded up the best - it wasn't the heaviest ones, or the most expensive. As Mavic are finding, reducing the rim wall thickness and using slightly more brittle alloy to get the required stiffness, the eyelets in the rims are where the cracks start anyway. What is achieved by the use of eyelets?

> The key is the ability to withstand high tension is superior material
> properties (stiffness), and EVEN SPOKE TENSION. Off Centre Rims.
> Respaced hub flanges. Better design and quality control of spokes. No black
> art. Just materials science.

I agree 100%. The difference in tension between drive and non-drive spokes in a 9 or 10 speed wheel is crazy. I reckon we should go back to seven speed. That was plenty. Even better, my fixed wheel bikes have perfectly even spoke tension right and left.

As Desgranges said, there is no need to use a multispeed drivetrain, it just makes you soft

> All the last 40 years of lubrication chemistry is voodoo?

If I for a moment believed that chemistry went into the stuff that the LBS sells, both for oiling your chain and for more obscure applications like oiling spoke threads, then I'd agree. However I'll remain comfortable in the knowledge that marketing hype is the main ingredient in pretty much all these things.

Linseed oil works extremely well, is environmentaly friendly, easily obtainable, and cheap.

Sounds like you're just sticking with what you know. Did Uncle Reg swear blind back in the '60s that linseed oil was the best nipple lube ever?

I'm as leery of marketing hype as the next impoverished wannabe roadie. But I've tried all the well-reputed spoke lube nostrums, and have come back to good-quality oil-based chain lube as the thing which gets you most consistent spoke tension, as measured across several different spoke/rim combinations. So there.

BTW, I don't wear my wool knicks anymore. I found, through experiment and and a vague, nagging dissatisfaction, that lycra is just so much less prickly. I have some very nice wool jerseys. Great for wet weather.

> You wouldn't have an ancestor called Ned, would you? N. Ludd, esq.?

> Not all new stuff is bad. If it were, we'd still be riding screw-on 5 speed
> 36/40 hole solid axle wheels. With linseed oil as nipple lube.

Stuff that. Both my nicest bikes are fixed wheel. One even has 32 spokes in the front and 40 in the rear.

You ride those to get the groceries and go long distance touring? Or to make a breakaway into a headwind? My fixedie is great for riding to the movies on, where I can leave it locked up with no fear of any of the (cheap-ass) bits of it going missing. BTW, the 'Triplets of Belleville' is one strange, spaced out film. The slowly bobbing heads of the non-Anquetil cyclists are a sure indication of lack of oxygen to the brain going on somewhere there.

Cheers,

Suzy

Handclaps,

MH