"Anyone riding a bicycle on Market St. will be arrested."



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John David Galt <[email protected]> wrote:
>Nothing wrong with using bicycles for transportation, but when they're being used in large numbers
>for the purpose of blocking traffic, the police are not only entitled but REQUIRED to arrest the
>perps. I'm glad they're finally doing their job.

And how do you determine the purpose? Are you saying we should start arresting motor vehicle drivers
if they get stuck in a traffic jam?
--
Steven O'Neill [email protected] The bicycle is the true automobile. www.bridgetolls.org
 
"Steven M. O'Neill" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> John David Galt <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Nothing wrong with using bicycles for transportation, but when they're being used in large
> >numbers for the purpose of blocking traffic, the police are not only entitled but REQUIRED to
> >arrest the perps. I'm glad they're finally doing their job.
>
> And how do you determine the purpuse? Are you saying we should start arresting motor vehicle
> drivers if they get stuck in a traffic jam?

Nope, just the moron cyclists blocking traffic and only after giving them a knock on the head (to
first get their attention) with a police baton!
 
"Steven M. O'Neill" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> John David Galt <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Nothing wrong with using bicycles for transportation, but when they're being used in large
> >numbers for the purpose of blocking traffic, the police are not only entitled but REQUIRED to
> >arrest the perps. I'm glad they're finally doing their job.
>
> And how do you determine the purpose? Are you saying we should start arresting motor vehicle
> drivers if they get stuck in a traffic jam?

Nope, just the idiot cyclists blocking traffic.
 
"Steven M. O'Neill" wrote:
>
> John David Galt <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Nothing wrong with using bicycles for transportation, but when they're being used in large
> >numbers for the purpose of blocking traffic, the police are not only entitled but REQUIRED to
> >arrest the perps. I'm glad they're finally doing their job.
>
> And how do you determine the purpose?

Because the ads and flyers that solicit people to come out and ride say so. As do the leaders when
interviewed on news programs. It's not rocket science.
 
This is the mentality that led to the Kent State incident. Result, none of those shot were invovled
in the protest. The nature of cycling in SF on a given day means that you are participating in
Critical Mass? Those of us who cycle to work each day would be as likely to use the same streets,
regardless of whether we support CM as a concept or not. Personally, I don't believe that such
tactics accomplish anything and it is merely an excuse to have some strange concept of a party, but
we do have the right to protest in our society and, considering that SF traffic moves slower than
cyclists do (at least individually), and the city is routinely blockaded by one event or another (no
city seems to have more parades and the like), I don't believe the police response is at all
reasonable.

Rick

"John David Galt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Steven M. O'Neill" wrote:
> >
> > John David Galt <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >Nothing wrong with using bicycles for transportation, but when they're being used in large
> > >numbers for the purpose of blocking traffic, the police are not only entitled but REQUIRED to
> > >arrest the perps. I'm glad they're finally doing their job.
> >
> > And how do you determine the purpose?
>
> Because the ads and flyers that solicit people to come out and ride say so. As do the leaders when
> interviewed on news programs. It's not rocket science.
 
>> And how do you determine the purpose?
> Because the ads and flyers that solicit people to come out and ride say so.

=v= Certainly there are anti-war protesters out there, on foot or on bike, intending to delay
traffic. That's not the same thing as the topic as described right up there, in plain (or even
remedial) English, on the "Subject:" line.

=v= Unless, of course, you think "anyone riding a bicycle" is sufficient grounds for
"probable cause."

> As do the leaders when interviewed on news programs. It's not rocket science.

=v= Speaking of not rocket science, are you ever going to figure out that these things have no
leaders? <_Jym_
 
Jym Dyer wrote:
>
> >> And how do you determine the purpose?
> > Because the ads and flyers that solicit people to come out and ride say so.
>
> =v= Certainly there are anti-war protesters out there, on foot or on bike, intending to delay
> traffic. That's not the same thing as the topic as described right up there, in plain (or even
> remedial) English, on the "Subject:" line.
>
> =v= Unless, of course, you think "anyone riding a bicycle" is sufficient grounds for
> "probable cause."

"Anyone riding a bicycle" at the time and place announced for CM is indeed probable cause, IMO,
although I'd go along with having the police first give an order to disperse (as for other riot-like
activities) and exempt those who comply from prosecution.

>> As do the leaders when interviewed on news programs. It's not rocket science.

> =v= Speaking of not rocket science, are you ever going to figure out that these things have no
> leaders?

The criminal strategy of no one ever admitting membership or leadership in the organization (also
used by Earth First! and similar terrorist groups) does not imply that there aren't actually members
or leaders -- only that they are also liars.
 
John David Galt <[email protected]> wrote:
>"Anyone riding a bicycle" at the time and place announced for CM is indeed probable cause, IMO,
>although I'd go along with having the police first give an order to disperse (as for other
>riot-like activities) and exempt those who comply from prosecution.

Would a CM for motor vehicles be illegal? And if so, how would you know which motorists in the area
were participating and which were just passing through?
--
Steven O'Neill [email protected] The bicycle is the true automobile. www.bridgetolls.org
 
> "Anyone riding a bicycle" at the time and place announced for CM is indeed probable cause ...

=v= First of all, it's not CM we're talking about here.

=v= Secondly, why? The streets are filled with bike riders every day. If Cyclists A-M announce a
street protest where Cyclists N-Z are riding anyhow, it's bad law enforcement (indeed, extremely
oppressive police state tactics) to bust Cyclists A-Z.

> ... although I'd go along with having the police first give an order to disperse (as for other
> riot-like activities) and exempt those who comply from prosecution.

=v= Your "other riot-like activities" rhetoric is, of course,
B.S. Your overly-optimistic scenario doesn't match S.F.P.D. behavior, either: in general, the
required order to disperse is either not made, inaudible, or announced after the police
surround a group, thereby making it impossible to comply. Often those who *do* comply are
arrested anyhow.

> The criminal strategy of no one ever admitting membership or leadership in the organization (also
> used by Earth First! and similar terrorist groups) does not imply that there aren't actually
> members or leaders -- only that they are also liars.

=v= Your "criminal strategy" rhetoric is setting off the B.S. detector again. Ditto for your use of
"terrorist." Get a grip. Regardless of the labels you like to use, it remains true that Critical
Mass *is* leaderless, as was proven pretty decisively on 25-Jul-1997. Whether or not you believe it
qualifies as traffic, it certainly works as if it's traffic: not leadable. <_Jym_>
--
Bikes Not Bombs: http://www.scorcher.org/bnb/

Critical Mass Screed: http://www.scorcher.org/screed/

Jym Dyer ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: __Q ::: [email protected] ::::::::::::::::: "My
other car is :: ==`\(x :: http://www.things.org/~jym/ :::: also a bicycle." :: O-/ `O ::
 
> John David Galt <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Anyone riding a bicycle" at the time and place announced for CM is indeed probable cause, IMO,
>> although I'd go along with having the police first give an order to disperse (as for other
>> riot-like activities) and exempt those who comply from prosecution.

"Steven M. O'Neill" wrote:
> Would a CM for motor vehicles be illegal?

You mean, a deliberate road-blocking action? Yes, it would be.

> And if so, how would you know which motorists in the area were participating and which were just
> passing through?

You'd have to see them stop when the road is open for them to go. Then you'd have to give a "get
moving" order, and start making arrests of non-compliers from the front of the group backward, since
you can't expect someone to get moving until the other vehicles blocking him have been removed.
 
"Steven M. O'Neill" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> John David Galt <[email protected]> wrote:
> >"Anyone riding a bicycle" at the time and place announced for CM is
indeed
> >probable cause, IMO, although I'd go along with having the police first
give
> >an order to disperse (as for other riot-like activities) and exempt those who comply from
> >prosecution.
>
> Would a CM for motor vehicles be illegal? And if so, how would you know which motorists in the
> area were participating and which were just passing through?

Yes. I can think of all sorts of "no cruising" ordinances passed by many cities. And the
police don't seem to have all that much trouble figuring out who to stop (partly by age,
partly by demeanor)

Nick Byram (Bay Area Exile) Antelope, CA In 1959, Nikita Khrushchev saw his first U.S. interstate
freeway and said he was shocked by the waste of time, money, and effort. In his country, "there was
little need for such roads because the Soviet people lived close together, did not care for
automobiles, and seldom moved."
 
"Rick Donnelly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> This is the mentality that led to the Kent State incident. Result, none of those shot were
> invovled in the protest.

Actually, according to the commission that followed, two of those shot were actual vandals and
arsonists, the other two were unfortunate victims who happened to be in the wrong place at the
wrong time.

>The nature of cycling in SF on a given day means that you are participating in Critical Mass?
>Those of us
who
> cycle to work each day would be as likely to use the same streets, regardless of whether we
> support CM as a concept or not.

I would think that you would be more likely to prudently avoid the streets that "Critical Mass" was
making trouble on, and take parallel streets (not hard to do in grid-like San Francisco). If that
inconvenience bothers you, blame the Critical Mass creeps; I am sure you would do better bike time
in their absence.

Nick Byram (Bay Area Exile) Antelope, CA

In 1959, Nikita Khrushchev saw his first U.S. interstate freeway and said he was shocked by the
waste of time, money, and effort. In his country, "there was little need for such roads because the
Soviet people lived close together, did not care for automobiles, and seldom moved."
 
On Wed, 16 Apr 2003 00:34:30 GMT in rec.bicycles.soc, "Nicholas Byram" <[email protected]> wrote:

> > Would a CM for motor vehicles be illegal? And if so, how would you know which motorists in the
> > area were participating and which were just passing through?
>
> Yes. I can think of all sorts of "no cruising" ordinances passed by many cities.

which are, of course, completely unconstitutional. just because a law is passed doesn't make it
either legal or enforceable.
 
In article <[email protected]>, "Rick Donnelly"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> This is the mentality that led to the Kent State incident. Result, none of those shot were
> invovled in the protest.

To correct this information slightly...it is not so. Although two of the students who died were not
involved with the protest at all, many of those who were shot (and two of those who died) were.

That's not to say any of them deserved to be shot, regardless. It's just a correction of fact.

> The nature of cycling in SF on a given day means that you are participating in Critical Mass?
> Those of us who cycle to work each day would be as likely to use the same streets, regardless of
> whether we support CM as a concept or not. Personally, I don't believe that such tactics
> accomplish anything and it is merely an excuse to have some strange concept of a party, but we do
> have the right to protest in our society and, considering that SF traffic moves slower than
> cyclists do (at least individually), and the city is routinely blockaded by one event or another
> (no city seems to have more parades and the like), I don't believe the police response is at all
> reasonable.
>
> Rick

I have to agree. Except to do what they can to keep traffic moving in general...which is what I
would expect them to do with motorized traffic as well. I would not expect them to single out
cyclists and blame them alone for a traffic jam.
--
Trudi Proud Member of the Coalition of the Frustrated and Syracuse Alumna Declaring a one-year
moratorium on her hatred of basketball :)
____
Say NO to secret judging and corruption in skating -- support SkateFAIR! http://www.skatefair.org
 
> Actually, according to the commission that followed, two of those shot
were
> actual vandals and arsonists, the other two were unfortunate victims who happened to be in the
> wrong place at the wrong time.
>
http://www.mohonasen.org/staffdev/mhistory/Summersell2/mhwor60kent.htm

"The Ohio National Guardsmen were equipped with tear gas, grenade launches to help fire the tear
gas, and fire arms. They were also provided with bayonets. The students knew they would need to
defend themselves, so they retaliated. As they were retreating up Blanket Hill they lobbed tear gas
canisters back at the guardsmen along with rocks and other sharp objects. They also charged with
torches. Between sixty-one and sixty-seven shots were fired in thirteen seconds without order or
warning. The outcome, four American students dead along with nine others injured. The four students
shot and killed were Allison Krause, William (Bill) Shroeder, Sandra Scheuer, and Jeffrey (Jeff)
Miller. Allison Krause was hit by a shot penetrating the left side of her body (through her arm and
chest) about three hundred and fifty yards away. Bill was shot in the back four hundred feet away.
Sandra was also shot about four hundred feet about but through her throat. Jeff was shoot in his
mouth nearly two hundred and seventy-five feet away. A memorial for these students has been erected
on the site where they died."

At 350 yards away, Krause was a former participant and was leaving the scene. Scheuer, was walking
to class and was a total innocent. Shroeder was shot in the back and we can assume that he was in
the process of leaving the situation. This leaves Miller, who, though part of the crowd, was not, by
any account I've read, an "arsonist" (since the fires were set the day before, the point is moot,
anyway since the guardsmen were not shooting with knowledge of this. I won't deny that they were
provoked and frightened before they opened fire). http://dept.kent.edu/sociology/lewis/lewihen.htm

"Nine other students were injured. Including Alan Canfora, John Cleary, Thomas (Tom) Grace, Dean
Kahler, Joseph (Joe) Lewis, Scott Mackenzie, James (Jim) Russel, Robert (Robby) Stamps, and Douglas
(Doug) Wrentmore. Of the thirteen shots that connected, seven were in the sides of the backs of
students showing they were not advancing toward the Ohio National Guardsmen, they were fleeing.
Therefore, not every student that congregated as the common was a participant in the peaceful
demonstration that turned into a bloody murder scene. Some were walking to and from their classes,
other were just spectators of the scene. The University was ordered closed immediately, first by
President Robert White and then indefinitely by Portage County Prosecutor Ronald Kane under an
injunction from Common Please Judge Albert Caris. Classes did not resume until the summer of 1970,
and faculty members engaged in a wide variety of activities through the mail and off-campus meeting
that enabled Kent State students to finish the semester."
http://www.mohonasen.org/staffdev/mhistory/Summersell2/mhwor60kent.htm

> >The nature of cycling in SF on a given day means that you are participating in Critical Mass?
> >Those of us
> who
> > cycle to work each day would be as likely to use the same streets, regardless of whether we
> > support CM as a concept or not.
>
> I would think that you would be more likely to prudently avoid the streets that "Critical Mass"
> was making trouble on, and take parallel streets (not hard to do in grid-like San Francisco). If
> that inconvenience bothers you, blame the Critical Mass creeps; I am sure you would do better bike
> time in their absence.
>

Frankly, I wouldn't know what streets they were using, when they were going to cycle, and I
wouldn't plan my life around this. I ride because I ride pretty much when and where I want to. Slow
cycling, just like slow traffic, is infuriating and I would probably adjust for that, as you point
out, but, again, why and how does this excuse the police of following due process? Their suspicious
nature aside, there is no real crime here, just inconvenience. Their response is unjustifyable and
out of line.

Should I go cycling in SF, and, as always, obey the laws and not cause problems, do you think they'd
alter their behavior accordingly? Of course not. This should be a serious concern for anyone who
values their civil rights. Perhaps you, like certain individuals in public office today, like the
idea of a police state?

Rick
 
On 4/15/2003 5:34 PM Nicholas Byram spake thus:

> "Steven M. O'Neill" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> John David Galt <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >"Anyone riding a bicycle" at the time and place announced for CM is
> indeed
>> >probable cause, IMO, although I'd go along with having the police first
> give
>> >an order to disperse (as for other riot-like activities) and exempt those who comply from
>> >prosecution.
>>
>> Would a CM for motor vehicles be illegal? And if so, how would you know which motorists in the
>> area were participating and which were just passing through?
>
> Yes. I can think of all sorts of "no cruising" ordinances passed by many cities. And the police
> don't seem to have all that much trouble figuring out who to stop (partly by age, partly by
> demeanor)

Sheesh, if I didn't know better, I'd accuse you of committing a tautology: "If the police stop
someone, it must be for a good reason".

Maybe you want to restate this, or better yet, rethink this.

--
As for lean, these grossly, grossly, grossly overweight all-American lard-ass behemoths come in at
155% of the mass (293,500 lbs vs 86 t) and 42% of the power (3600 hp vs 6.4 MW) of your typical
contemporary Euro-weenie locomotve. A good thing extreme measures are being taken to keep oil cheap.

- Richard Mlynarik, spot-on as usual, comparing Made-in-U.S.A. to European railroad equipment in
ba.transportation
 
> I can think of all sorts of "no cruising" ordinances passed by many cities. And the police don't
> seem to have all that much trouble figuring out who to stop (partly by age, partly by demeanor)

=v= If by "demeanor" you mean "race," you're correct. Too bad it's a violation our civil rights to
equal protection (as per the 14th Amendment to the Constitution). <_Jym_
 
> Frankly, I wouldn't know what streets they were using, when they were going to cycle, and I
> wouldn't plan my life around this.

Frankly, you can't, for the same reason drivers can't: CM's organizers have always refused to
preselect a route, saying the whole point is to get in the way of drivers and not be avoidable.

> I ride because I ride pretty much when and where I want to. Slow cycling, just like slow traffic,
> is infuriating and I would probably adjust for that, as you point out, but, again, why and how
> does this excuse the police of following due process?

Because there's no other way to stop this repeated crime, and it must be stopped at any cost.

> Their suspicious nature aside, there is no real crime here, just inconvenience. Their response is
> unjustifyable and out of line.

Yes, there is a real crime here. When inconvenience becomes deliberate it ceases to be minor or
acceptable.
 
Loren Petrich wrote:
>
> Actually, many car drivers stage their own version of "Critical Mass" on a very regular basis.
>
> These "Critical Mass" demonstrations are more usually known as "traffic jams".

Not deliberate therefore not comparable, and you know it. End of topic.
 
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