Are bladed spokes a big deal?

[ecandl]

My AC420s were delivered yesterday. I took off 2 of the 4 stickers on each wheel and will attempt (for the first time) to install the cassette in a couple of days when that is delivered. Must admit that I am a little skeptical of gaining much dropping 160g off of each wheel but am hopeful it will make some difference. I will reply if I love them, hate them, or if something breaks. Wish me luck. I am hoping to gain 2-4 mph and cut 25% off of the local climb.

 

[531Aussie]

The answer depends .........

thanks.

I'm not exactly sure what the spokes are, but they're on an older set of Flash-Point FP60s, with the black spokes (20f/24r), and 2-cross on both. On my crappy verniers, the spokes are ~1.2mm x ~2.3mm, so I assume they're DT Aero Speed

The Flash-Points are my first 'fancy' wheels (not exactly Lews), and I find them a bit flexy, so, out of desperation, I've just rebuilt the front one radially (elbows out) with straight 2mm DTs, hoping that will stiffen it a bit.

It might've been a silly thing to do, but the new ones are radial, although I'm not sure if they use the same hubs. This is mine in the pic. Does the flange look beefy enough for radial lacing? By the way, that's not my smoke butt

 

[daveornee]

The answer depends on the material and what dimension you're referring to on the aero spoke. Actually you need a width and thickness for the aero spoke.

<SNIP>

An example of how little a change in lateral stiffness matters: a few weeks ago, road spooge jammed my rear derailleur, causing my RD hanger to break off (it's a replaceable hanger) and the RD to fly into the spokes of the LEW VT-1 rear. A very cursory (I was on a streak of days with only 2-3 hrs of sleep) glance at the wheel showed it was unharmed, so when I had a new hanger and a new RD (the RD was spliffed), I mounted everything back up and continued riding der wheel......until the wifey, one day while looking at the bike, asked, "Isn't there supposed to be a spoke there?" Yup. One spoke was completely gone. Still with one missing spoke on the rear, the wheel was still true, and I had zero issues with downhill cornering and with climbing: no brake rub, no unfriendly oscillations, <SNIP>.

How do you explain a "true" wheel with one spoke missing?

 

[Dietmar]

I am hoping to gain 2-4 mph and cut 25% off of the local climb.

You are kidding, right?

 

[alienator]

How do you explain a "true" wheel with one spoke missing?

Spokes are installed so that they are under no tension when the wheel is under no load. The spokes are individually bonded in place.

 

[Camilo]

My AC420s were delivered yesterday. I took off 2 of the 4 stickers on each wheel and will attempt (for the first time) to install the cassette in a couple of days when that is delivered. Must admit that I am a little skeptical of gaining much dropping 160g off of each wheel but am hopeful it will make some difference. I will reply if I love them, hate them, or if something breaks. Wish me luck. I am hoping to gain 2-4 mph and cut 25% off of the local climb.

For what it's worth, installing a cassette is dead easy - nothing on a bike is much easier. You need a lockring tool (cheap, readily available) and a wrench big enough to fit it. It's nice to have a torque wrench and appropriate socket, but not absolutely necessary if you have common sense and some experience in tightening stuff. While you're at it, you might as well get a chain whip because you'll need one to remove a cassette- again, pretty cheap and easy to find on line or in bike shops.

Before I got my torque wrench, I just used an adjustable jaw (AKA Crescent) wrench and just tightened it "good and tight" - not as tight as I possibly could get it, but did put a little oomph into it. It really isn't a high tech or fragile fastener situation like a gasket or an alloy or carbon piece, and I think a little common sense will tell you if you've got it on there.

Now that I have a torque wrench (I use a Sears 0-75 ft lbs to get to the spec'd 40 nm ~30 ft lbs ~360 inch lbs), I use a large socket wrench. If you don't want to buy one and don't feel comfortable with going by feel, this is definitely a torque wrench you should be able to borrow or rent as it is a common size (as opposed to the much less common, low range torque wrenches used for a lot of other bike jobs such as stems and seat posts). Plus, a simple beam type is only $25-30 at your local Sears or equivalent.

Incidently, I found I was a little low on my "guess" (probably around 25-30nm). For fun, I checked another wheel whose cassette was installed by a reputable bike mechanic was also at about 30 nm.

As for performance, you're right in your about gaining so much, but I wouldn't be surprised if you were happy with the "feeling" or placebo effect. I lost a full 2 lbs from my old wheels, skewers, tires and tubes to my new set up. The new wheels definitely "feel" quicker, and I "feel" that the 20 pedal catch-up sprinting we all do from time to time is quicker, but of course I have no idea if they make a bit of difference in overall 20-50 mile speed. I can't tell you I've gained a rear sprocket in the hills, I still get whipped when I try to keep up with stronger riders, and still ride comfortably with the same riders I rode with before. I don't race though. I'm happy because of the "feeling" and increased fun factor though.

 

[Camilo]

My AC420s were delivered yesterday. I took off 2 of the 4 stickers on each wheel and will attempt (for the first time) to install the cassette in a couple of days when that is delivered. Must admit that I am a little skeptical of gaining much dropping 160g off of each wheel but am hopeful it will make some difference. I will reply if I love them, hate them, or if something breaks. Wish me luck. I am hoping to gain 2-4 mph and cut 25% off of the local climb.

You are kidding, right?

I think the is a hint

 

[Dietmar]

Spokes are installed so that they are under no tension when the wheel is under no load. The spokes are individually bonded in place.

Those things are about $7k for the wheelset, so you might well expect miracles from them...

 

[Dietmar]

I think the is a hint

Yeah, so I hoped

 

[daveornee]

Spokes are installed so that they are under no tension when the wheel is under no load. The spokes are individually bonded in place.

OK, I understand & I am taking this even further OT by asking this:
What is the process and costs for replacing a spoke?
This is idle curiosity, because what ever it is I can not afford the wheels you have.

 

[alienator]

OK, I understand & I am taking this even further OT by asking this:
What is the process and costs for replacing a spoke?
This is idle curiosity, because what ever it is I can not afford the wheels you have.

Well, I can't afford them either. They're wheels that I'm running some tests on for Lew. I can't remember the exact cost of replacing a spoke, but it's around $200 or so....I think. As for the process, Lew doesn't say specifically. The spokes are bonded in place, so if must involve de-bonding the old and bonding the new. A wheel can lose 2-3 spokes before it has noticeable issues. Should there be any trueness issues, the bonding process that Lew uses allows the wheels to be "trued" at the factory.

 

[swampy1970]

For what it's worth, installing a cassette is dead easy - nothing on a bike is much easier. You need a lockring tool (cheap, readily available) and a wrench big enough to fit it. It's nice to have a torque wrench and appropriate socket, but not absolutely necessary if you have common sense and some experience in tightening stuff. While you're at it, you might as well get a chain whip because you'll need one to remove a cassette- again, pretty cheap and easy to find on line or in bike shops.

Before I got my torque wrench, I just used an adjustable jaw (AKA Crescent) wrench and just tightened it "good and tight" - not as tight as I possibly could get it, but did put a little oomph into it. It really isn't a high tech or fragile fastener situation like a gasket or an alloy or carbon piece, and I think a little common sense will tell you if you've got it on there.

Now that I have a torque wrench (I use a Sears 0-75 ft lbs to get to the spec'd 40 nm ~30 ft lbs ~360 inch lbs), I use a large socket wrench. If you don't want to buy one and don't feel comfortable with going by feel, this is definitely a torque wrench you should be able to borrow or rent as it is a common size (as opposed to the much less common, low range torque wrenches used for a lot of other bike jobs such as stems and seat posts). Plus, a simple beam type is only $25-30 at your local Sears or equivalent.

The American Classic's have a shim kit for Dura Ace and another for Ultegra/105 cassettes. It's a little fiddly but nothing that shouldn't take more than five minutes.

I've had a pair of 420's with Sapim spokes for a couple of years. The only thing that I've done to them is regular maintenance and perform the "recall" service for the freehub - which was really easy and I wasn't sure if the previous owner had done it. A.C. provided the bits free of charge anyway. The titanium QR skewers are great. Damned reliable and pretty bombproof. The only thing that I don't care for is the back wheel is slightly too flexy for my liking as I like my brakes set pretty close to the rim.

 

[ecandl]

For what it's worth, installing a cassette is dead easy - nothing on a bike is much easier. You need a lockring tool (cheap, readily available) and a wrench big enough to fit it. It's nice to have a torque wrench and appropriate socket, but not absolutely necessary if you have common sense and some experience in tightening stuff. While you're at it, you might as well get a chain whip because you'll need one to remove a cassette- again, pretty cheap and easy to find on line or in bike shops.

Just for fun, I tried to put my cassette on without any instructions. I took the Ultegra cassette out ( I ordered Ultegra, some of the black spacer have 105 on them?) and fit the rings on. I found that each piece had to go on in a certain way. I couldn't get the tightener or final piece to engage the threads. There was also quite a bit of play in the cassette. I don't know if the final piece will tighten things up or not or if I am missing something? I know the cassette on my old wheels doesn't have any play. What do I do from here? I have looked online for step by step instructions but have not found anything. I purchased a repair book sometime ago but they only tell how to remove a cassette, not install it. I want to figure out basic repairs but also want to make sure it is right. Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

 

[dsschanze]

I think the difference is very small and probably not noticable unless you had a power meter that could give watt readings with a few decimal places out. If you are that considered about aero advantage, since you are pretty light, go with as low of a spoke count as possible, as that will definitely reduce drag.

 

[ecandl]

Just for fun, I tried to put my cassette on without any instructions. I took the Ultegra cassette out ( I ordered Ultegra, some of the black spacer have 105 on them?) and fit the rings on. I found that each piece had to go on in a certain way. I couldn't get the tightener or final piece to engage the threads. There was also quite a bit of play in the cassette. I don't know if the final piece will tighten things up or not or if I am missing something? I know the cassette on my old wheels doesn't have any play. What do I do from here? I have looked online for step by step instructions but have not found anything. I purchased a repair book sometime ago but they only tell how to remove a cassette, not install it. I want to figure out basic repairs but also want to make sure it is right. Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

Thought I would pass on a great site. Bicycletutor.com had a great video on switching out cassettes. My cassettes are on and it is easy -when you know how. Several other videos as well that are very good.

 

[ecandl]

My AC420s were delivered yesterday. I took off 2 of the 4 stickers on each wheel and will attempt (for the first time) to install the cassette in a couple of days when that is delivered. Must admit that I am a little skeptical of gaining much dropping 160g off of each wheel but am hopeful it will make some difference. I will reply if I love them, hate them, or if something breaks. Wish me luck.

I have put a few hundred miles on my AC420s including 2 races - a hillclimb and a criterium. I have had no problems at all. I have not noticed much difference in performance. My bike feels noticeably lighter when I pick it up and feels a little lighter as I ride. The front wheel does spin forever. I had it on the back of my car, ordered some fast food, looked out the window, and the wheel was still spinning. I don't know if that translates to improved performance or not. I get a little twitch in crosswinds but not noticeably more than other wheels and not enough to worry me. I'll let you know if I have any problems.

 

[flanman]

Just for fun, I tried to put my cassette on without any instructions. I took the Ultegra cassette out ( I ordered Ultegra, some of the black spacer have 105 on them?) and fit the rings on. I found that each piece had to go on in a certain way. I couldn't get the tightener or final piece to engage the threads. There was also quite a bit of play in the cassette. I don't know if the final piece will tighten things up or not or if I am missing something? I know the cassette on my old wheels doesn't have any play. What do I do from here? I have looked online for step by step instructions but have not found anything. I purchased a repair book sometime ago but they only tell how to remove a cassette, not install it. I want to figure out basic repairs but also want to make sure it is right. Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

I'm not sure what kind of a freehub body you have. If it's a shminao 10 speed specific freehub then this could be responsible. Note that there is a 1 mm spacer that may or may not be necessary to use between cassette and freehub, goes on the spoke side.

The smallest sprocket, either an 11 T or 12 T, can be a tight fit. Make sure that you have it aligned properly and then push it down hard with your hand and it will slide onto the hub, probably with some scratching noises. You could try sliding it on first without the rest of the sproclkts to see if it works, then remove it, slide on all the sprockets and push on again. The 10 speed-specific freehubs have higher grooves that end a few mm before the edge of the freehub body.

That's my experience, anyway.

 

[531Aussie]

I recently saw this on the Zipp site. They compare the drag of different shape spokes. It says in the last bit that bladed spokes make about 10w drag difference, compared to round spokes, on a 46mm-deep rim

Who knows, maybe they're in bed with Sapim?


http://www.zipp.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=qzF0U9s4egA=&tabid=140

 

[mikesbytes]

So how much do cx ray spokes cost?

 

[daveornee]

So how much do cx ray spokes cost?

Around $2 US each