Are radial tubeless tires used today in cycling? Lo-resistance!

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Jeff Potter, Oct 20, 2003.

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  1. Jeff Potter

    Jeff Potter Guest

    I've heard there a quite a few tubeless tires around these days. Are any of them radials? A famous
    bike inventor from East Germany in the 50's invented the radial tire and found that they rolled
    much better than tubed-tires. Have cyclists done much with this knowledge since then? Are they
    using it now?

    Here's a related quote from a book that I publish, "The Recumbent Bicycle," by Gunnar Fehlau:

    "[Rinkowski] secured his research with a GDR economic patent in 1954. Rinkowski's radial tire for
    bicycles was determined to be superior to the diagonal tire. He developed the radial tire long
    before it entered the automobile industry. Tests showed that two-tube tires of ordinary construction
    and size had a rolling resistance of 6 Newtons. To overcome the resistance of Rinkowski's tires only
    required 3 Newtons. He himself stated the following figures: 'The patented recumbent bicycle tires
    under burden have a resistance of about 240 grams, while a pair of tube tires has a resistance of at
    least 420 grams. I know this so accurately because I have developed a rolling-resistance measuring
    device that is now the property of the DHFK-Academic Sports Club in Leipzig.' "Rinkowski's design
    resulted in 1.5 miles more per hour in practice compared with a racing upright, if the bikes were
    powered with 60 watts (which equals riding 12-14 mph on an upright). This includes the general
    advantage of the improved aerodynamics of the recumbent position."

    --

    Jeff Potter
    ****
    *Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself
    culture... ...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies... ...rare books on ski,
    bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller about smalltown smuggling ... more radical novels
    coming up! ...original downloadable music ... and articles galore! plus national "Off the Beaten
    Path" travel forums! HOLY SMOKES!
     
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  2. Jeff Potter wrote:

    > I've heard there a quite a few tubeless tires around these days. Are any of them radials?

    Plenty of tubeless tyres, yes (mostly on the MTB world but gradually filtering onto the roads), but
    AFAIK none is a radial. A Japanese manufacturer (Panaracer? Jeff Wills, comment please!) did market
    a radial in the late seventies. Rolling resistance was reportedly good, but the design meant that
    the sidewalls were not very stiff, thus allowing the tyre to squirm and give the general impression
    that it was going soft. They didn't remain on sale long.

    Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
    ===========================================================
    Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
    http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
    ===========================================================
     
  3. Bruni

    Bruni Guest

    When motorcycles went this route, they found it was necessary to use rims as wide as the tire and
    short sidewalls to control the lateral flex . I suspect the changes would work on bikes, but produce
    a hard riding, heavy system. Maybe ok for flat TTs, but little else, IMHO. Tom

    --
    Bruni Bicycles "Where art meets science" brunibicycles.com
    410.426.3420 Dave Larrington <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Jeff Potter wrote:
    >
    > > I've heard there a quite a few tubeless tires around these days. Are any of them radials?
    >
    > Plenty of tubeless tyres, yes (mostly on the MTB world but gradually filtering onto the roads),
    > but AFAIK none is a radial. A Japanese manufacturer (Panaracer? Jeff Wills, comment please!) did
    > market a radial in the late seventies. Rolling resistance was reportedly good, but the design
    > meant that the sidewalls were not very stiff, thus allowing the
    tyre
    > to squirm and give the general impression that it was going soft. They didn't remain on sale long.
    >
    > Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
    > ===========================================================
    > Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
    > http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
    > ===========================================================
     
  4. Jeff Wills

    Jeff Wills Guest

    "Dave Larrington" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > Jeff Potter wrote:
    >
    > > I've heard there a quite a few tubeless tires around these days. Are any of them radials?
    >
    > Plenty of tubeless tyres, yes (mostly on the MTB world but gradually filtering onto the roads),
    > but AFAIK none is a radial. A Japanese manufacturer (Panaracer? Jeff Wills, comment please!) did
    > market a radial in the late seventies. Rolling resistance was reportedly good, but the design
    > meant that the sidewalls were not very stiff, thus allowing the tyre to squirm and give the
    > general impression that it was going soft. They didn't remain on sale long.
    >

    You mean the Miyata tire? The Greenspeed tests showed that it was only average in terms of rolling
    resistance where the Michelin solar car tires were superior.

    I don't know if I'd want a radial bike tire. My experience with Panaracer Pasela tires' flexible
    sidewalls leads me to believe that they'd have low rolling resistance but feel very unsettled while
    cornering.

    Tubeless radial tires would have an advantage in top-speed HPV racing. You could take all the
    material that makes up the tube and plate it on the sidewall to prevent the kind of blowout that
    caused Sam Whittingham's 82mph crash at Battle Mountain.

    Jeff
     
  5. Jeff Potter wrote:

    > I've heard there a quite a few tubeless tires around these days. Are any of them radials? A famous
    > bike inventor from East Germany in the 50's invented the radial tire and found that they rolled
    > much better than tubed-tires. Have cyclists done much with this knowledge since then? Are they
    > using it now?

    No, they few tubeless tyres that are available (mainly for downhill MTB) are cross-ply. Radials
    squirm too much in corners, which is good in a car but not very helpful with the rounded profile of
    bike tyres.
     
  6. Jon Meinecke

    Jon Meinecke Guest

    "Zog The Undeniable" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

    > No, they few tubeless tyres that are available (mainly for downhill MTB) are cross-ply. Radials
    > squirm too much in corners, which is good in a car but not very helpful with the rounded profile
    > of bike tyres.

    A MTB-er friend has had good success with the tubeless system available from http://www.notubes.com
    that can work with standard tires. Anyone using this with road or touring tires for recumbents?

    Jon Meinecke
     
  7. >> No, they few tubeless tyres that are available (mainly for downhill MTB) are cross-ply. Radials
    >> squirm too much in corners, which is good in a car but not very helpful with the rounded profile
    >> of bike tyres.
    >
    Vredestein are in the process of developing a "square" profile radial velomobile tire. Should work
    on other trikes too, and trailers I suppose.

    Mark van Gorkom.
     
  8. Jeff Potter

    Jeff Potter Guest

    Jeff Wills wrote:

    > You mean the Miyata tire? The Greenspeed tests showed that it was only average in terms of rolling
    > resistance where the Michelin solar car tires were superior.
    >
    > I don't know if I'd want a radial bike tire. My experience with Panaracer Pasela tires' flexible
    > sidewalls leads me to believe that they'd have low rolling resistance but feel very unsettled
    > while cornering.
    >
    > Tubeless radial tires would have an advantage in top-speed HPV racing. You could take all the
    > material that makes up the tube and plate it on the sidewall to prevent the kind of blowout that
    > caused Sam Whittingham's 82mph crash at Battle Mountain.

    Note that Rinkowski found that radials had HALF the RR of others.

    As you say, if they squirm in corners, then just enjoy that easy speed in your straight TT's, but if
    we're talking HALF RR this is a big deal.

    Unless other newer nonradials cut their previous losses somehow? --Maybe this relates to that
    comparison you mention above?

    --

    Jeff Potter
    ****
    *Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself
    culture... ...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies... ...rare books on ski,
    bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller about smalltown smuggling ... more radical novels
    coming up! ...original downloadable music ... and articles galore! plus national "Off the Beaten
    Path" travel forums! HOLY SMOKES!
     
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