Are Shimano freehubs compatible with Formula hubs?



L

landotter

Guest
Yes, I could go out to the garage and grab a Shimano hub from the
buckit, but I'm lazy and it's cold as heck. It would be the last
barrier to un-****-izing the Dew. The stock hubs are ****, but
passable with a rebuild, but the stock freehub is blech.
 
A

A Muzi

Guest
landotter wrote:
> Yes, I could go out to the garage and grab a Shimano hub from the
> buckit, but I'm lazy and it's cold as heck. It would be the last
> barrier to un-****-izing the Dew. The stock hubs are ****, but
> passable with a rebuild, but the stock freehub is blech.


Same cassette fits both bodies
Cassette bodies and axle sets are radically different
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
 
O

Ozark Bicycle

Guest
On Feb 12, 11:24 pm, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
> Yes, I could go out to the garage and grab a Shimano hub from the
> buckit, but I'm lazy and it's cold as heck. It would be the last
> barrier to un-****-izing the Dew. The stock hubs are ****, but
> passable with a rebuild, but the stock freehub is blech.


Is the freehub actually causing problems, or is its el-crapo nature
merely offending your sensibilities?
 
L

landotter

Guest
On Feb 13, 6:15 am, Ozark Bicycle
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 12, 11:24 pm, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Yes, I could go out to the garage and grab a Shimano hub from the
> > buckit, but I'm lazy and it's cold as heck. It would be the last
> > barrier to un-****-izing the Dew. The stock hubs are ****, but
> > passable with a rebuild, but the stock freehub is blech.

>
> Is the freehub actually causing problems, or is its el-crapo nature
> merely offending your sensibilities?


The freedom lover in me is just appalled at the Sovietsky rumble of
the thing. Not noticeable under way, but up on a stand it makes me
want to ask for papers and grow a moustache.

I'll just wait till I catch a sale on a Deore LX, so I can build up an
Alex DM18 rear for peanuts. The Dew has become my primary ride in this
year's slop, so it's getting real miles, not just beer and Snyder's
pretzel miles.
 
L

landotter

Guest
On Feb 12, 11:35 pm, A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:
> landotter wrote:
> > Yes, I could go out to the garage and grab a Shimano hub from the
> > buckit, but I'm lazy and it's cold as heck. It would be the last
> > barrier to un-****-izing the Dew. The stock hubs are ****, but
> > passable with a rebuild, but the stock freehub is blech.

>
> Same cassette fits both bodies
> Cassette bodies and axle sets are radically different


Grazie, saves me an hour of futzing. In a better world, $500 utility
bikes would come with a $10 Shimano rear mech and LX hubs.
 
O

Ozark Bicycle

Guest
On Feb 13, 8:58 am, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 12, 11:35 pm, A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > landotter wrote:
> > > Yes, I could go out to the garage and grab a Shimano hub from the
> > > buckit, but I'm lazy and it's cold as heck. It would be the last
> > > barrier to un-****-izing the Dew. The stock hubs are ****, but
> > > passable with a rebuild, but the stock freehub is blech.

>
> > Same cassette fits both bodies
> > Cassette bodies and axle sets are radically different

>
> Grazie, saves me an hour of futzing. In a better world, $500 utility
> bikes would come with a $10 Shimano rear mech and LX hubs.


Yes, but in the 'real world', RDs "sell" bikes at that level much more
than do hubs.
 
O

Ozark Bicycle

Guest
On Feb 13, 8:51 am, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 13, 6:15 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Feb 12, 11:24 pm, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > > Yes, I could go out to the garage and grab a Shimano hub from the
> > > buckit, but I'm lazy and it's cold as heck. It would be the last
> > > barrier to un-****-izing the Dew. The stock hubs are ****, but
> > > passable with a rebuild, but the stock freehub is blech.

>
> > Is the freehub actually causing problems, or is its el-crapo nature
> > merely offending your sensibilities?

>
> The freedom lover in me is just appalled at the Sovietsky rumble of
> the thing. Not noticeable under way, but up on a stand it makes me
> want to ask for  papers and grow a moustache.



.....and ask for a hot bowl of borscht?




>
> I'll just wait till I catch a sale on a Deore LX, so I can build up an
> Alex DM18 rear for peanuts. The Dew has become my primary ride in this
> year's slop, so it's getting real miles, not just beer and Snyder's
> pretzel miles.


Sounds like you're turning the Dew into a very nice,yet very
practical, bike. Keep us posted.
 
L

landotter

Guest
On Feb 13, 10:17 am, Ozark Bicycle
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 13, 8:51 am, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 13, 6:15 am, Ozark Bicycle

>
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > On Feb 12, 11:24 pm, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > > > Yes, I could go out to the garage and grab a Shimano hub from the
> > > > buckit, but I'm lazy and it's cold as heck. It would be the last
> > > > barrier to un-****-izing the Dew. The stock hubs are ****, but
> > > > passable with a rebuild, but the stock freehub is blech.

>
> > > Is the freehub actually causing problems, or is its el-crapo nature
> > > merely offending your sensibilities?

>
> > The freedom lover in me is just appalled at the Sovietsky rumble of
> > the thing. Not noticeable under way, but up on a stand it makes me
> > want to ask for  papers and grow a moustache.

>
> .....and ask for a hot bowl of borscht?
>
>
>
> > I'll just wait till I catch a sale on a Deore LX, so I can build up an
> > Alex DM18 rear for peanuts. The Dew has become my primary ride in this
> > year's slop, so it's getting real miles, not just beer and Snyder's
> > pretzel miles.

>
> Sounds like you're turning the Dew into a very nice,yet very
> practical, bike. Keep us posted.


I'll be sure to update everybody on the minutia of my dog food
fetcher! LOL The stories I could tell about the mounting of the bell,
the kickstand, and the operatta that was the upgrading of the mud
flaps! Steven Sondheim should hear my inspiring tale!

Seriously, though--I got back into cycling ten years ago with utility
riding. I got a really nice city bike with all the fixins, adapted
some Swiss military bags as panniers, and ended up riding everywhere
without even batting an eye. Got into really good lean shape without
even realizing that it was actual exercise for a while till I had to
get new pants.

So I put some spds on the Dew temporarily a few weeks ago so I could
ride in some decent mtb shoes, and haven't taken 'em off. Throw a lock
in the panniers and a workout can consist of fetching short ribs from
a market fifteen miles away instead of doing intervals down at the
wetland trail. I was doing some utility stuff with the fixie and my
old Timbuk2 bag--but it didn't seem civilized, more like I was a
little too old playing poseur (or narc, take your pick). Racks and
bags are much more gentlemanly.
 
C

Chalo

Guest
landotter wrote:
>
> A Muzi wrote:
>
> > landotter wrote:
> > > Yes, I could go out to the garage and grab a Shimano hub from the
> > > buckit, but I'm lazy and it's cold as heck. It would be the last
> > > barrier to un-****-izing the Dew. The stock hubs are ****, but
> > > passable with a rebuild, but the stock freehub is blech.

>
> > Same cassette fits both bodies
> > Cassette bodies and axle sets are radically different

>
> Grazie, saves me an hour of futzing. In a better world, $500 utility
> bikes would come with a $10 Shimano rear mech and LX hubs.


In an even better world, they'd come with freewheels and sealed
bearing hubs with 15mm smooth axles.

Formula's big-axle BMX hubs are almost there-- it's only the axle
itself that's wrong for a derailleur bike.

Chalo
 
L

landotter

Guest
On Feb 13, 10:12 am, Ozark Bicycle
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 13, 8:58 am, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 12, 11:35 pm, A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > > landotter wrote:
> > > > Yes, I could go out to the garage and grab a Shimano hub from the
> > > > buckit, but I'm lazy and it's cold as heck. It would be the last
> > > > barrier to un-****-izing the Dew. The stock hubs are ****, but
> > > > passable with a rebuild, but the stock freehub is blech.

>
> > > Same cassette fits both bodies
> > > Cassette bodies and axle sets are radically different

>
> > Grazie, saves me an hour of futzing. In a better world, $500 utility
> > bikes would come with a $10 Shimano rear mech and LX hubs.

>
> Yes, but in the 'real world', RDs "sell" bikes at that level much more
> than do hubs.


Heh, one of the main reasons I bought my Redline *was* the really nice
cartridge bearing hubs, I figured the price of the bike was about what
I'd spend on components and the frame was an extra bonus to hold it
all together!
 
S

Scott Gordo

Guest
On Feb 13, 2:02 pm, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 13, 10:17 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
>
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Feb 13, 8:51 am, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > > On Feb 13, 6:15 am, Ozark Bicycle

>
> > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > On Feb 12, 11:24 pm, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > > > > Yes, I could go out to the garage and grab a Shimano hub from the
> > > > > buckit, but I'm lazy and it's cold as heck. It would be the last
> > > > > barrier to un-****-izing the Dew. The stock hubs are ****, but
> > > > > passable with a rebuild, but the stock freehub is blech.

>
> > > > Is the freehub actually causing problems, or is its el-crapo nature
> > > > merely offending your sensibilities?

>
> > > The freedom lover in me is just appalled at the Sovietsky rumble of
> > > the thing. Not noticeable under way, but up on a stand it makes me
> > > want to ask for  papers and grow a moustache.

>
> > .....and ask for a hot bowl of borscht?

>
> > > I'll just wait till I catch a sale on a Deore LX, so I can build up an
> > > Alex DM18 rear for peanuts. The Dew has become my primary ride in this
> > > year's slop, so it's getting real miles, not just beer and Snyder's
> > > pretzel miles.

>
> > Sounds like you're turning the Dew into a very nice,yet very
> > practical, bike. Keep us posted.

>
> I'll be sure to update everybody on the minutia of my dog food
> fetcher! LOL The stories I could tell about the mounting of the bell,
> the kickstand, and the operatta that was the upgrading of the mud
> flaps! Steven Sondheim should hear my inspiring tale!
>
> Seriously, though--I got back into cycling ten years ago with utility
> riding. I got a really nice city bike with all the fixins, adapted
> some Swiss military bags as panniers, and ended up riding everywhere
> without even batting an eye. Got into really good lean shape without
> even realizing that it was actual exercise for a while till I had to
> get new pants.
>
> So I put some spds on the Dew temporarily a few weeks ago so I could
> ride in some decent mtb shoes, and haven't taken 'em off. Throw a lock
> in the panniers and a workout can consist of fetching short ribs from
> a market fifteen miles away instead of doing intervals down at the
> wetland trail. I was doing some utility stuff with the fixie and my
> old Timbuk2 bag--but it didn't seem civilized, more like I was a
> little too old playing poseur (or narc, take your pick). Racks and
> bags are much more gentlemanly.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Word. My current townie is a garbage picked GT Palomar. Installed some
moustache bars, new cheapo saddle, a big collapsible basket on the
back, I've got the singlewalled rims half-trued, and the rear axle
seems a bit bent but the wheel, you know, turns. When the basket is
open I have to slide my feet forward on the pedals to prevent my heels
from hitting. It's a fun little POS.

Used to have a similar setup on an old red Giant frame that didn't
have a single matching part. Different cranks, pedals,
shifters...probably had 4 different brake shoes. I was green in my
clunker-fixing days then, and remember being mystified by the bb --
can't remember why, maybe it was a spindle for a double rather than a
triple I was trying to install or vice versa, or maybe I just didn't
have the proper bb tool -- but I do remember eventually taking a
hammer to it trying to get the chainring aligned :) The gears shifted
in the least opportune times, and there was a nice hop in the rear
wheel too. Getting it to the store and back in one peice was like
being a one man band, and a very bad one at that.

It also had a big basket on the back that would chew up my heels. I
don't even remember what happened to that bike. If it was stolen,
well, that's just funny.
 
T

Tom Sherman

Guest
Chalo Colina wrote:
> landotter wrote:
>> A Muzi wrote:
>>
>>> landotter wrote:
>>>> Yes, I could go out to the garage and grab a Shimano hub from the
>>>> buckit, but I'm lazy and it's cold as heck. It would be the last
>>>> barrier to un-****-izing the Dew. The stock hubs are ****, but
>>>> passable with a rebuild, but the stock freehub is blech.
>>> Same cassette fits both bodies
>>> Cassette bodies and axle sets are radically different

>> Grazie, saves me an hour of futzing. In a better world, $500 utility
>> bikes would come with a $10 Shimano rear mech and LX hubs.

>
> In an even better world, they'd come with freewheels and sealed
> bearing hubs with 15mm smooth axles.
>
> Formula's big-axle BMX hubs are almost there-- it's only the axle
> itself that's wrong for a derailleur bike.
>

Why would anyone prefer a freewheel over a cassette? Particularly a
Chalo sized person?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
L

landotter

Guest
On Feb 13, 7:03 pm, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Chalo Colina wrote:
> > landotter wrote:
> >> A Muzi wrote:

>
> >>> landotter wrote:
> >>>> Yes, I could go out to the garage and grab a Shimano hub from the
> >>>> buckit, but I'm lazy and it's cold as heck. It would be the last
> >>>> barrier to un-****-izing the Dew. The stock hubs are ****, but
> >>>> passable with a rebuild, but the stock freehub is blech.
> >>> Same cassette fits both bodies
> >>> Cassette bodies and axle sets are radically different
> >> Grazie, saves me an hour of futzing. In a better world, $500 utility
> >> bikes would come with a $10 Shimano rear mech and LX hubs.

>
> > In an even better world, they'd come with freewheels and sealed
> > bearing hubs with 15mm smooth axles.

>
> > Formula's big-axle BMX hubs are almost there-- it's only the axle
> > itself that's wrong for a derailleur bike.

>
> Why would anyone prefer a freewheel over a cassette? Particularly a
> Chalo sized person?
>


http://www.unitedthroughreading.org/

I hear you ride a recumbent, and I heard you ride one. Do you really
ride one, a recumbent, is that what you ride, a recumbent the opposite
of an upright bike which is not a recubent which is what you ride and
I do not?
 
T

Tom Sherman

Guest
"landotter" of the Department of Redundancy Department wrote:
> On Feb 13, 7:03 pm, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> Chalo Colina wrote:
>>> landotter wrote:
>>>> A Muzi wrote:
>>>>> landotter wrote:
>>>>>> Yes, I could go out to the garage and grab a Shimano hub from the
>>>>>> buckit, but I'm lazy and it's cold as heck. It would be the last
>>>>>> barrier to un-****-izing the Dew. The stock hubs are ****, but
>>>>>> passable with a rebuild, but the stock freehub is blech.
>>>>> Same cassette fits both bodies
>>>>> Cassette bodies and axle sets are radically different
>>>> Grazie, saves me an hour of futzing. In a better world, $500 utility
>>>> bikes would come with a $10 Shimano rear mech and LX hubs.
>>> In an even better world, they'd come with freewheels and sealed
>>> bearing hubs with 15mm smooth axles.
>>> Formula's big-axle BMX hubs are almost there-- it's only the axle
>>> itself that's wrong for a derailleur bike.

>> Why would anyone prefer a freewheel over a cassette? Particularly a
>> Chalo sized person?
>>

>
> http://www.unitedthroughreading.org/
>

It is way uncool to post a link that mentions Laura "Stop Means Stop"
Bush without warning.

> I hear you ride a recumbent, and I heard you ride one. Do you really
> ride one, a recumbent, is that what you ride, a recumbent the opposite
> of an upright bike which is not a recu[m]bent which is what you ride and
> I do not?


Could you explain that with a few more words?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
B

Brian Huntley

Guest
On Feb 13, 2:02 pm, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'll be sure to update everybody on the minutia of my dog food
> fetcher! LOL The stories I could tell about the mounting of the bell,
> the kickstand, and the operatta that was the upgrading of the mud
> flaps! Steven Sondheim should hear my inspiring tale!


When you're a Dew,
You're a Dew all the time
From your eight-speed cassette
To your bell's double chime!

When you're a Dew,
If the spit hits the street,
You got brothers around,
You're a part of the fleet!

You're never alone,
Your chain's not disconnected!
You've a lane of own:
When traffic is expected,
You're well protected!

Then you are set
With a capital D,
Which you'll never forget
Till they saw your lock free!
When you're a Dew,
You stay
A Dew!

(I'd do something more up to date, but can't hum Sweeney Todd.)
 
L

landotter

Guest
On Feb 13, 8:20 pm, Brian Huntley <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 13, 2:02 pm, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I'll be sure to update everybody on the minutia of my dog food
> > fetcher! LOL The stories I could tell about the mounting of the bell,
> > the kickstand, and the operatta that was the upgrading of the mud
> > flaps! Steven Sondheim should hear my inspiring tale!

>
> When you're a Dew,
> You're a Dew all the time
> From your eight-speed cassette
> To your bell's double chime!
>
> When you're a Dew,
> If the spit hits the street,
> You got brothers around,
> You're a part of the fleet!
>
> You're never alone,
> Your chain's not disconnected!
> You've a lane of own:
> When traffic is expected,
> You're well protected!
>
> Then you are set
> With a capital D,
> Which you'll never forget
> Till they saw your lock free!
> When you're a Dew,
> You stay
> A Dew!
>


BRAVO!


> (I'd do something more up to date, but can't hum Sweeney Todd.)


These are my friends!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLQCMj-GGIA
 
B

Brian Huntley

Guest
On Feb 13, 9:56 pm, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 13, 8:20 pm, Brian Huntley <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 13, 2:02 pm, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > > I'll be sure to update everybody on the minutia of my dog food
> > > fetcher! LOL The stories I could tell about the mounting of the bell,
> > > the kickstand, and the operatta that was the upgrading of the mud
> > > flaps! Steven Sondheim should hear my inspiring tale!

>
> > When you're a Dew,
> > You're a Dew all the time
> > From your eight-speed cassette
> > To your bell's double chime!

>
> > When you're a Dew,
> > If the spit hits the street,
> > You got brothers around,
> > You're a part of the fleet!

>
> > You're never alone,
> > Your chain's not disconnected!
> > You've a lane of own:
> > When traffic is expected,
> > You're well protected!

>
> > Then you are set
> > With a capital D,
> > Which you'll never forget
> > Till they saw your lock free!
> > When you're a Dew,
> > You stay
> > A Dew!

>
> BRAVO!
>
> > (I'd do something more up to date, but can't hum Sweeney Todd.)

>
> These are my friends!
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLQCMj-GGIA


Without the video, I'd have thought that song was about Campy downtube
shifters.
 
A

A Muzi

Guest
>>>> landotter wrote:
>>>>> Yes, I could go out to the garage and grab a Shimano hub from the
>>>>> buckit, but I'm lazy and it's cold as heck. It would be the last
>>>>> barrier to un-****-izing the Dew. The stock hubs are ****, but
>>>>> passable with a rebuild, but the stock freehub is blech.


>>> A Muzi wrote:
>>>> Same cassette fits both bodies
>>>> Cassette bodies and axle sets are radically different


>> landotter wrote:
>>> Grazie, saves me an hour of futzing. In a better world, $500 utility
>>> bikes would come with a $10 Shimano rear mech and LX hubs.


> Chalo Colina wrote:
>> In an even better world, they'd come with freewheels and sealed
>> bearing hubs with 15mm smooth axles.
>> Formula's big-axle BMX hubs are almost there-- it's only the axle
>> itself that's wrong for a derailleur bike.


Tom Sherman wrote:
> Why would anyone prefer a freewheel over a cassette? Particularly a
> Chalo sized person?


Strong riders break off the little underdesigned Shimano cassette pawls.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
 
T

Tom Sherman

Guest
Andrew Muzi wrote:
>>>>> landotter wrote:
>>>>>> Yes, I could go out to the garage and grab a Shimano hub from the
>>>>>> buckit, but I'm lazy and it's cold as heck. It would be the last
>>>>>> barrier to un-****-izing the Dew. The stock hubs are ****, but
>>>>>> passable with a rebuild, but the stock freehub is blech.

>
>>>> A Muzi wrote:
>>>>> Same cassette fits both bodies
>>>>> Cassette bodies and axle sets are radically different

>
>>> landotter wrote:
>>>> Grazie, saves me an hour of futzing. In a better world, $500 utility
>>>> bikes would come with a $10 Shimano rear mech and LX hubs.

>
>> Chalo Colina wrote:
>>> In an even better world, they'd come with freewheels and sealed
>>> bearing hubs with 15mm smooth axles.
>>> Formula's big-axle BMX hubs are almost there-- it's only the axle
>>> itself that's wrong for a derailleur bike.

>
> Tom Sherman wrote:
>> Why would anyone prefer a freewheel over a cassette? Particularly a
>> Chalo sized person?

>
> Strong riders break off the little underdesigned Shimano cassette pawls.
>

Do not heavy riders break freewheels axles more often compared to free
hub axles? Or even Jobst Brandt mass riders who spend a lot of time out
of the saddle?

I can also imagine a Chalo sized rider would get a freewheel rather
tight on the hub just through normal riding.

The Shimano complaint would seen to indicate a problem with a specific
implementation, and not a general condemnation of the general design.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
A

A Muzi

Guest
>>>>>> landotter wrote:
>>>>>>> Yes, I could go out to the garage and grab a Shimano hub from the
>>>>>>> buckit, but I'm lazy and it's cold as heck. It would be the last
>>>>>>> barrier to un-****-izing the Dew. The stock hubs are ****, but
>>>>>>> passable with a rebuild, but the stock freehub is blech.


>>>>> A Muzi wrote:
>>>>>> Same cassette fits both bodies
>>>>>> Cassette bodies and axle sets are radically different


>>>> landotter wrote:
>>>>> Grazie, saves me an hour of futzing. In a better world, $500 utility
>>>>> bikes would come with a $10 Shimano rear mech and LX hubs.


>>> Chalo Colina wrote:
>>>> In an even better world, they'd come with freewheels and sealed
>>>> bearing hubs with 15mm smooth axles.
>>>> Formula's big-axle BMX hubs are almost there-- it's only the axle
>>>> itself that's wrong for a derailleur bike.


>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>> Why would anyone prefer a freewheel over a cassette? Particularly a
>>> Chalo sized person?


> Andrew Muzi wrote:
>> Strong riders break off the little underdesigned Shimano cassette pawls.


Tom Sherman wrote:
> Do not heavy riders break freewheels axles more often compared to free
> hub axles? Or even Jobst Brandt mass riders who spend a lot of time out
> of the saddle?
> I can also imagine a Chalo sized rider would get a freewheel rather
> tight on the hub just through normal riding.
> The Shimano complaint would seen to indicate a problem with a specific
> implementation, and not a general condemnation of the general design.


Theoretically I agree an outboard RH bearing is a good thing for a hub.

But rigor (Phil & similar 16mm axles) on a single freewheel setup has
proved tough for many years under extreme conditions/riders.

A 16mm axle is just barely reliable for an 8 freewheel but seems to last
pretty well for 5 speed freewheel hubs. Note apples/oranges throughout!
Shimano 8-9-10 cassette body life will surely compare unfavorably to a
16mm axle single freewheel setup under a strong rider, but 'all else' is
not remotely equal in that case.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971