Are Treks, Giants, and Specialized "Soul-Less"



marv800

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May 19, 2004
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Still in the market for a new bike. I've always ridden Italian bikes loke Pinarello, Cinelli, and Colnago's. However I am being swayed toward one of the above three due to pricepoint and availability. Something doesn't feel right though about getting one of those.. I don't know why. Then today I was in a shop that sells De Rosas and the like, and the owner called these bikes "SOUL-LESS". It felt like he hit the nail on the head. Most of these frames are mass manufactured in Taiwan, Singapore, etc. What happened to pride in craftsmanship?
 
Maybe a little. Obviously, we're talking about flair and cultural import here, rather than physical quality (Trek, Specialized and Giant all make top-notch frames), but your point is taken.

Also obvious is that we're not really comparing Trek to Pinarello -- it's not an nationalist issue. If we apply the same standards, there's arguably ten times the "soul" in a handcrafted American boutique frame, like a Sycip, Eisentraut, or Soma, than you'll ever find in a big-label Italian frame.

There's clearly nothing wrong with not caring how exclusive or quaint your bike label is, but the discussion is valid: cycling has a history of romanticism and artisanship. Subjective cultural criticisms are inevitable. Personally, I'd rather not ride a bike quite so common as Trek, very nearly America's official flagship roadbike. But I own and enjoy a Giant. It's got character of its own; it may not smack of old-world crafstmanship, or funky California boutique welding, but it's got a sort of "I'm a no-nonsense international race machine" sort of vibe. Not as soulful as my custom painted Klein, but happy.

Ultimately, bikes fill as many cultural and spiritual niches as they fill practical purposes. One day, I'll own a classic Italian, a Middle-American ti, a steel Japanese, a boutique carbon, a Taiwanese-built aluminum and a friggin' Trek all at once. Weeeeeeee!
 
Originally posted by marv800
Still in the market for a new bike. I've always ridden Italian bikes loke Pinarello, Cinelli, and Colnago's. However I am being swayed toward one of the above three due to pricepoint and availability. Something doesn't feel right though about getting one of those.. I don't know why. Then today I was in a shop that sells De Rosas and the like, and the owner called these bikes "SOUL-LESS". It felt like he hit the nail on the head. Most of these frames are mass manufactured in Taiwan, Singapore, etc. What happened to pride in craftsmanship?

Sounds like you're questioning whether to pay premium prices for italian style vs function. An alternative, as lokstah suggested, would be an american-made Trek, Cannondale, Litespeed, or other custom bike. You could argue about racing heritage, but plenty of pride of craftsmanship exists in american bike factories and small frame shops too.

After considering an italian frame for my new bike for this season, decided I would rather have an american-made frame from our small local builder (SANO). I liked meeting the people that built my frame, and being able to discuss my final choices with them. Besides, the main tubes are Columbus, so it still has that italian soul deep inside.
 
I know exactly wath your LBS guy is telling about ''souless'' ,My first road bike was a cheap-alu-full-taiwan-ultra-manufactured frame and got tired of having to fit in a Small-Medium-Large bike too long for me.

As my boss suggested me (I'm now working in a bike shop) I bought a handcrafted Fondriest..... climbs like a beast, rides more comfortable and has a damn great paint job.

If you are used to the second kind of bike, don't go back , you will regret it! Sure you may save 400 bucks on the bike , wich would make no difference for any people buying a road bike for the first time , but with the experiences you have , you might guess wath the extra bucks will bring you ine the future.

good luck in your search and PLEASE don't buy a trek!
 
Soul-less bikes are all relative to the individual.
As for me, I don’t see the difference between a mass produced frame from Taiwan, or one produced in Italy (by Taiwanise immigrants). The value in cycling for me comes through my personal input & the achievements/milestones. The bike under me is a tool to get there.
If you want craftsmanship then you have to pay for it in $$ & problems in availability. It’s really the only way low volume manufacturers get sales on the broad, marketing ‘spin’ like craftsmanship & attention to detail gets the punters out there seeking their product regardless how hard they are to get hold of.
Sure there are some beautiful bikes (frames) out there from the boutique bicycle manufacturers, and you can have one if you’re inclined. But I don’t think they would ‘enhance’ your personal cycling experience unless you stop, step back & look at it for a while.

I can understand you viewpoint though, I also ride a motorcycle & currently own a Ducati superbike, which is relatively exotic, expensive & can be a trial to own. The quantifiable value in this for me is in it's unique execution in motor characteristics & handling traits which are not reflected in other brands. Perhaps this is how ‘craftsmanship’ can manifest itself in a tangible form ( & experience).
 
Try a Cannondale. Every frame handmade in the US. I like mine better than my Italian steel frames...it reminds me of a AC Cobra- light, fast and snappy. Now if it had a Cobra Jet engine :)
 
I guess I am not buying into this line of thinking. I have no problem with folks who want to pay more for a hand built or a custom frame - I think that is a great way to feel proud and to express your individuality. But to say that my Specialized Allez Comp Ultegra has less soul than my old Bianchi... no, I can't buy it.

Also, why is the frame the only part of a bike that has soul? Can wheels have soul too? How about the shifters and drivetrain? What about the seat? Bottle cages?

Sorry, but I don't see it. I do think that YOU have a soul though, so just get out there and ride, man.
 
The thing is, you don't need a sole to ride, you need the heart & guts & determination.
 
This discussion has taken an inevitable turn... you can't start making unfavorable observations about the style-factor and mass-produced popular bikes without stirring up a defensive reaction.

It's perfectly understandable, because no, there's absolutely nothing wrong with Specializeds, Treks, and Giants, and no, there are zero style rules worth paying attention to if you don't agree with them. Everyone's entitled to their own affinities and aversions.

Yes, Randy, anything can have soul. If a particular brand of mouthwash strikes you as unique, rare, flashy or nostalgic, you've got every reason to avoid Scope -- ubiquitous, reliable, vanilla blah Scope -- and say wonderful things about Dr. Rutger's Magic Oral Tonic. Or perhaps you're a Scope devotee. You love the pine-green hue, the over-the-top mint, the bold branding, and the ease of replacement. You'd never trade up for over-priced **** that needs to be special ordered from Rhode Island.

That said, I get great vibes out of both my Giant and my custom Klein. I lust for Pegoretti, but when helping my fiancee choose her road bike, I campaigned feverishly for the Allez we eventually bought.

It's all good, folks. Soul totally matters; we just need to accept that we all see it in different mouthwashes. Ride on.
 
Originally posted by lokstah
This discussion has taken an inevitable turn... you can't start making unfavorable observations about the style-factor and mass-produced popular bikes without stirring up a defensive reaction.

It's perfectly understandable, because no, there's absolutely nothing wrong with Specializeds, Treks, and Giants, and no, there are zero style rules worth paying attention to if you don't agree with them. Everyone's entitled to their own affinities and aversions.

Lokstah, you are getting close to what may be the real issue: I think a bike may be a receptacle for "soul", but the rider has to insert it. Further, some bikes are much better recipients than others. But to say a bike is purchased with "soul included" and this soul somehow improves performance or ride quality - no, not buying it. When it is in the store, a bike is simply a machine - perhaps a beautiful/ugly/fast/clunky/cheap/expensive/garish/tasteful machine, but a machine nonetheless. If someone wants to argue that it gains a soul after it is taken home and ridden, then I might listen.
 
When it comes to high end frames, I'll take innovation and avant-garde engineering above "style", "soul" or "mystique" every time thanks.

At least then you aren't getting duped quite so much into some kind of reality-distortion field. "You are not the bike you ride."
 
Originally posted by rek
When it comes to high end frames, I'll take innovation and avant-garde engineering above "style", "soul" or "mystique" every time thanks.
+1 to that.

Of all the features I look for in a bike, "soul" sounds like the most expensive AND the one I care about the least. That salesman has a lot of balls if he's trying to pitch you the more expensive bike because of it's "soul".
 
The rider gives the bike the soul.

If you ride that bike like there is nothing else better in the world, why does it matter if it's mass produced or where it's produced? The rider is 95% of the bike/rider team.

Treks are great, durable, strong, finely made bikes.... I would buy one! HELL, I have two.

Thank you
 
Randy, TrekDedicated, that's a fair statement. You're both right -- the rider inserts the soul. It's essentially another way of putting beauty in the eye of the beholder, which is precisely where it belongs. There's nothing inherently soulful about anything on the planet (except for James Brown).

That said, don't knock the stuff (or style, or mojo, or aura, or whatever you want to call it). Only those who ride purely for the sake of fitness and transportation can be honest in rejecting the notion completely. If you love your Trek -- if its craftsmanship, durability, pro-proven-clout, American roots, or reliability makes your heart sing -- than bully for you. You've found soul in your ride.

:cool:
 
Hey Lok, can you just reexplain this part "Only those who ride purely for the sake of fitness and transportation can be honest in rejecting the notion completely."

Little confused.

THANKS!!


PS, just to make sure. I am not knocking other bikes. It's all personal preference
 
I used to think I'd only ever ride an Italian/European or high-end american frame. Until I test rode a Specialized Allez comp... for what I wanted it fit the bill so perfectly, I fell in love. Once that happens, we have a bike with a soul.

And FWIW, when you look closely and notice the Columus SLX (the modern aluminum E5 variety) badge and other appointments, and look past the Speciallized label, the bike begins taking on a character much different than the run-of-the-mill bikes. Stump works does some great stuff. There is definite soul there...albiet not much 'tradition' of the euro frames.
 
Originally posted by Randybaker99
Sorry, but I don't see it. I do think that YOU have a soul though, so just get out there and ride, man.

Gotta agree with Randybaker99 on this. I think we are all neglecting our riding time to discuss these kinds of things.

I am willing to pay far too much for my De Rosa because I am absolutely positive it is simply the most beautiful and performing frame in the world! :D

And I am sure that all of you feel exactly the same way about the bikes you spent far too much of your hard-earned money on! And we could argue about which bikes have soul or don't, without convincing anyone else. ;)

Now let's go ride!
 
Originally posted by TrekDedicated
Hey Lok, can you just reexplain this part "Only those who ride purely for the sake of fitness and transportation can be honest in rejecting the notion completely."

Little confused.
No problem. I'm suggesting that everyone appreciates their bike on a material, emotional, spiritual or other intangible level -- and that the folks who don't are the rare breed who care only that their bike serve a purely practical purpose.

It might be refreshing to be that utilitarian, but frankly, I can't imagine what it's like.
 
Originally posted by Powerful Pete
I think we are all neglecting our riding time to discuss these kinds of things.

Actually I'm neglecting my WORK by whiling away some time on something I'm more passionate about. Your'e right though, back to the day job so I can get out of here and onto the pavement. 30 miles along the Rio Grande await...
 
Since you folks seem tothink that a frame can't have a soul lets play an abstract game of compare and contrast:

On the one hand, you have a yuppie wanna be biker, inspired by Lance's conquest of yet another tour, decide he wants to "start kicking asphalt". So my yuppy grabs his wallet and goes to MEGABIKESHOP Inc. and buys himself a mass-manufactured Trek Madone with full Dura-Ace.

On the other hand, you have a different yuppie wanna be biker, who is similarly inspired by Lance's conquest of yet another tour, decide he wants to "start kicking asphalt". So this yuppy grabs his wallet and goes to his LBS and gets sized for a new Seven Elium. Weeks go buy as fabricators painstakingly construct this fine expression of art, machinery, engineering, and technological advancement, to refined perfection. The frame is assigned an ID badge and is signed off by each individual who had a hand in its birth. As the frame is carefully and lovingly packed and shipped from its birthplace, all the builders, craftsmen, and artists wave and bode it farewell with tearful eyes, but knowing it will be going to a home where it will invariably meet many hundreds of miles of roads, and see many glorious finish lines with its new caretaker.

But suddenly, something goes awry with both yuppies... somehow weeks have come and gone and the latest cars from Mercedes are introduced, and the thought of dominating the roads with a bicycle are the furthest thought from the yuppies' minds as the drool over the shiny pages of the Mercedes brochure. They both coincidentally let their passions overcome them and both drive out in new SL500's.

But what about the bikes? Where are they now? Relegated to the depths of a storage room, collecting dust.. forgotten by their owners... they are now just simply relics of the fleeting fancies induced by the July programming of OLN TV.

Now let me ask you... Which bike cries?

Bikes have no soul??? Maybe thats because you ride a Trek.