Are we there yet?

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by CalicoCat, Jan 12, 2011.

  1. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    Cramping is usually due to a deficiency. Either a deficiency of suitable training or deficiency in your diet. The former you of the two you can easily work out - is your training sufficient to do the work that you're trying to do? The latter can easily be ascertained from a quick doctors visit if nothing seems to be grossly missing from your diet. Keep tabs on everything you eat and drink and see if anything screams 'deficient' back at you. those 50 cent mini writing pads and a pencil could be the best diagnostic tool so you can ride your bike worth thousands of dollars without cramping.
     


  2. ambal

    ambal Active Member

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    True and it's most likely a hydration deficiency.
     
  3. coneofsilence

    coneofsilence Member

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    and salt if you sweat a lot.
     
  4. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    Well I am making sure I stay well hydrated today, we will see how it works out tomorrow
     
  5. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Nothing for me to boast about today Swampy, but at least no pictures of me demoralized like in 08'./img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

    My Ride Report
     
  6. gman0482

    gman0482 Member

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    (Power meter) + (Garmin) + (WKO+) + (TrainingRacingw/PM) = Pure Love !!

    This is definitely awesome. Can't wait for the road...
     
  7. steve

    steve Administrator
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    Speaking of pure love, Garmin should sponsor this site, they'd get a lot of love from members.
     
  8. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Bad thing about doing video of a 5 to 6 hour ride is editing out a lot of good stuff so it will upload to the web.

    Here is a portion of our 80 mile ride yesterday
     
  9. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    Was that because you weren't in that shape towards the end or just that because no one had a camera handy? :p Nothing to really boast about from me either apart from almost getting 3 hours in this weekend. No vicoden or ibuprofen required :) progress.
     
  10. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Good to hear that your ribs are recovering.



    I had the video camera on my bike pointed away from the grimace on my face. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

    Actually, the day went pretty good. Felt good during the entire 80 miles, but as written in my blog report and also in the video a lost cyclist called for my help as she was way off course and worn out. I went ahead of my group and was solo for many miles, but around mile 65 I stopped my training pace to help this lady find her way back. What the video does not show (edited out) is that I would get way out ahead of her and then have to either wait or ride back to help her stay on course.

    I say I felt good on the entire route, but I was a little disappointed in my climbing. I pushed a little bit and was a little winded, but I had to hold back some since I still had ~50 miles ahead of me and would be riding solo. I reserved my energy on the climb, but still noticed I really need to make some improvements in the watt/kg area. I am still being very conservative on the descending as I feel there is no sense risking an injury in a training ride.


    Climbing Horn Mountain
    Duration: 17:04
    Work: 202 kJ
    TSS: 30.5 (intensity factor 1.036)
    Norm Power: 207
    VI: 1.05
    Distance: 1.747 mi
    Min Max Avg
    Power: 0 362 198 watts
    Speed: 0 10.1 6.1 mph
    Pace 5:58 0:00 9:46 min/mi
    Hub Torque: 0 44 22 lb-in
    Crank Torque: 0 556 270 lb-in

    Edit: (It appears that I need to adjust my FT number in WKO /img/vbsmilies/smilies/redface.gif )

    Next weekend will be a big climbing day with much longer and challenging climbs.
     
  11. jsirabella

    jsirabella New Member

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    all->Heading for a vacation to Isle of Palms in SC. Promised my wife I would not bring the bike but found some local shops and will do the gym if needed. Wondering anyone here from that area?

    On the training front things continue to move along nicely, I bought a powertap wire receiver and put it in the workhorse bike so I can use either now for training if I like. Have decided to make sure I am putting in a full 2 hours on the weekdays with still the 60 minutes of SST included. I really need to try for the 240 ftp soon as I feel it should happen but I am waiting for my body to tell me as opposed to forcing it.

    Stay patient and consistent to win the race.

    -js
     
  12. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    Enjoy the vacation.

    Test the waters and try 20 minutes at 240watts and see what happens. If all seems well then have at it for another 20 minutes. If you don't have it then your body will tell you but give it an honest go. I find it's fairly common to really suffer for the first 10 minutes and things just click in the latter 10. Sadly though, it's not always that way and the second half can be hell on wheels where you're taking it 1 minute at a time and having to focus on trying to stay somewhat relaxed - but at least you know you're there and by definition FTP is your threshold power when you're rested AND motivated. If you can hit 240 during 20 minute intervals repeatably in training without the race motivation factor then you're there.

    I find that a 40 minute full gas effort in normal training will reproduce what I can maintain for about an hour when motivated and rested. For me that's the deal clincher.

    If you're heading into new uncharter waters then I find it best to spend some part of the warm up above where you hope to be. Do your usual warm up and ramp it up over the course of a few minutes at the end from 220 to 260+ at about 10 to 15watts per minute. That'll get 'all systems operational' and you'll be ready for the task at hand.
     
  13. gman0482

    gman0482 Member

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    Ok so I have to admit that before today, I was sort of a VO2max virgin. I've never 'really' done any true VO2max workouts, only dipping into the 106-120% but very briefly here and there, and not for long enough.

    Today I decided to take a VO2max workout right out of Coggan/Allen's book, and it went like this :

    15 min warm-up @ ~65%

    5 min @ 100% (IF 0.997)
    5 min @ 58% (IF 0.615)

    6 x 3min (3 min RI)
    3 min @ 116% (IF n/a)
    3 min @ 113%
    3 min @ 112%
    3 min @ 114%
    3 min @ 113%
    3 min @ 115%
    Average rpm for all was 102-103.

    8 min (should be 10 min) @ 64%

    And I only did 2 x 2min @ 112% and 113% with 2 min RI. Should've done 2 x 4 mins, but I was feeling it.

    Still indoors on the trainer BTW...


    I'm just mad that I didn't do these earlier, and didn't know that I need to spend 'at minimum' 3 minutes (to 8 mins) per interval at VO2max to get any adaptation and to elicit improvements.

    You live and you learn I guess, but VO2max work is great. Couple of things I'm still hazy on, the norm power vs. av.power, the IF vs %FTP, and I don't know why the IF/TSS did not show up in the 3 minute intervals, but I'm sure I'll find out sooner or later.

    Thanks,
    -Greg
     
  14. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    Gman,
    Nice job on the L5 work. Don't beat yourself up for not doing them earlier, they can be really useful during a race prep phase or for addressing a particular weakness or raising your 'aerobic ceiling' when you stall out on extended SST/L4 work but they're generally best handled in focused 5 to 8 week blocks as races approach as opposed to a year round 'pull up' sort of approach. Trouble is a lot of folks burn out on them and they also typically yield less session TSS and less direct FTP raising benefit than accumulating a lot of solid L3/SST/L4 time. These boards alone are full of posts from folks who tried to rush FTP progress by switching to a ton of L5 work only to burn out, sometimes go backwards and often quietly disappear from the discussion. Don't think they're magic and will rush you ahead. They're a tool in your arsenal and they can be a really important and valuable tool but don't OD on them and don't lose sight of what brought you this far. My race season has started but I'm still holding off on a pure L5 training day until I'm about 8 weeks out from my A races which are a few months away at this point. Nothing wrong with doing them at other times or even year round as long as you don't sacrifice too much training load or too many of your other quality sessions but in the past I've found it hard to do L5/L6 work and race and continue to build workload as well as FTP. Something typically has to give with the transition to more high end days so I personally go light on the L5/L6 work till I'm pretty close to my key events.


    In terms of the metrics stuff:

    - NP and from it IF/TSS reflect effective metabolic stress and workload which means it's not really valid for short intervals. Basically, those metrics aren't meaningful for intervals less than about 20 minutes long as the shorter work starts leaning heavily to AWC as opposed to sustained metabolic processes. At one point Andy lobbied to have WKO+ not display NP or its derivatives for the short efforts but folks were already hooked on the metric so they compromised by not displaying NP/IF/TSS for efforts less than 5 minutes. In WKO+ 3.0 they got a bit more clever and even some 5 minute efforts won't show NP, etc. if there was a break of any sort during the 5 minutes. BTW, if you kill it hard in the first or final 15 seconds of an interval, especially a short say 5 to 10 minute interval it's not unusual to see NP lower than AP. It's weird but it's a mathematical artifact of the NP 30 second smoothing algorithm and the way that WKO+ has implemented the sliding window smoothing. But again NP isn't really valid for those short intervals and it would take some really big bursts relative to AP to get the same effect in really long intervals.

    - So look at AP for short intervals and look closely at things like power fade or U shaped profiles for each L5 interval to improve pacing but ignore NP/IF/TSS for the individual bursts

    - In addition to AP, look at NP and IF for the overall set of L5 work as the whole set should be plenty long enough to be primarily metabolic and many apparently decent looking interval routines fail not due to the power of the individual efforts but due to the attempted NP/IF of the entire set. You basically won't do a single effort above your 1 rep MMP for that time (say your best ever 3 or 5 minute MMP) if you do you've just established a new MMP for that duration. You also shouldn't expect to do a full set with an AP or NP above your best MMP for the entire duration. So a decent looking interval set that lasts 20 minutes but yields a 20 minute AP or NP well above your best ever 20 minute AP/NP isn't likely to succeed and either needs lower power 'on' periods or longer rest between intervals to pull the AP/NP down for the set. This really applies to designing interval routines that will work for you, but it's one way to understand the role of NP and IF in terms of your core workout for the day.

    - View TSS in the context of the entire session as that's how you'll track whether the high end work is costing you training base (CTL) and should help you see if you might want to prop up your CTL by stretching some of your medium to longer rides on other days. If you are actually getting the same or more TSS during your L5/L6 days then tracking TSS can help you to spot overly aggressive CTL ramp rates and to make sure you get adequate recovery so that you ramp at sustainable rates.

    Hope that helps,
    -Dave
     
  15. gman0482

    gman0482 Member

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    You are the man Dave, as usual. Thank you so much, you've answered pretty much everything I was questioning so far.

    You've hit right on with the NP being lower that my AP. On the 5 min @100% before the L5's, my AP was 2 watts higher than my NP and the NP seemed to match with IF.

    Since I started using WKO+ rescently, and have been training for much longer, I'm not sure what my real CTL is, (or is it what is really showing ?) but I estimated my CTL increased by around 8.26 in 7 days, so 1.18 per day ? (until I took 2 days off from those L5's, lol) which I don't know if it's anything great, but all trainer work of around 1 to 1.2 hours per session, on a 2:1 day schedule.

    I just signed up for the $199 combo pack of WKO+ and TP, and I was wondering if there are any other views of CTL ?

    Thanks again, huge help.
    -Greg
     
  16. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    Greg,
    Did you seed your CTL and ATL values in the PMC or did you leave them at the default seeds of zero?

    If you've been training a while and don't seed the values then it'll take three months or more for the PMC to be very useful. Seeding doesn't have to be exact and you can always go back and change the seeds if you think you over or under estimated them at a later date. Here's the approach I use with athletes starting up with the PMC tool:

    - Set ATL seed equal to CTL seed unless you know you were really in a deep training hole (ATL larger) or really fresh from extra rest days (ATL smaller) on your PMC start date. Either way that's not too important as ATL only takes a couple of weeks to sort itself out as the time constant is pretty fast so in general use the same seeds for both and things will sort out quickly.

    - Estimate CTL seed by estimating your average daily workload in TSS for the couple of months leading up to your PMC start date. One way is to look at the sort of ride TSS you do on a regular basis, mentally compare it to what you were doing before your PMC start date (it's pretty typical for folks to train a bit more and a bit harder when they first start tracking power metrics so be honest with yourself about what you were doing previously). You want a daily average so estimate your weekly TSS and divide by 7 to account for rest days and use that as starting seeds. So for instance if you're now doing say 500 TSS per week but figure you're riding a bit more or working a bit harder now then maybe estimate your pre PMC TSS/day as say 70 (490/7) or maybe 65 and enter that in as seed values for both CTL and ATL.

    - You can also estimate based on hours trained per week and a swag at your typical average ride IF. So if you were training say 8 hours per week in the months leading up to your PMC start date and maybe averaged 0.7 IF for weekly riding that would give you roughly 400 TSS per week (IF^2*hours*100) or ~ 57 TSS/day for your starting seeds.

    If you pick the seeds well then you shouldn't see really steep CTL ramp rates without also being fairly tired and shouldn't see CTL drop unless you feel pretty well rested. If you pick them too high then a load that isn't restful can lead to sagging CTL in which case go back and lower them. If you set them too low then you'll see high CTL ramp rates (more than 5 to 8 per week sustained for several weeks is generally considered steep and a warning sign for burnout, illness or over training) but you'll feel just fine in which case go back and bump them up a bit. The more data you have and the more time that goes by the less important it is to establish accurate seeds and after about three months the seeds are pretty meaningless as the data has enough time to accurately show what sort of loads you actually maintain.

    Hope that helps,
    -Dave

    P.S. I'm not a regular TP user, but IME WKO+ has far more PMC visualization features than TP so the extra TP subscription won't add a lot there but TP does have other features and is a great way to exchange power files, plan calendars, track non power training items like nutrition, etc.
     
  17. Manweiser

    Manweiser New Member

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    First ride of the year in the books. It was a quick 12 mile ride squeezed into the day, but holy hell it felt great to be outside. I can safely say I certainly feel stronger than last year. Its unfortunate they are calling for a little snow on Friday...
     
  18. CalicoCat

    CalicoCat Member

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    Rock on!!! I just got back from Spring training, and agree that getting some quality time on the road feels AMAZING!!!!! Congrats also on feeling strong. It'll be a good season. Bring it on!
     
  19. gman0482

    gman0482 Member

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    This is great Dave, thanks. The values for both are set to zero at the moment, with constant CTL @ 42 and ATL @ 7.

    Ok, so I've been pretty consistant, and as you know I've mostly (almost only) done high L3/L4. I can safely say that from at least mid January ? I can say my weekly IF would be at least .7 or .75 . On average I will do +/- 7 hrs per week on the trainer, now getting a little longer.

    Huge help, thanks.
    -Greg
     
  20. gman0482

    gman0482 Member

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    So, I hope I did this right, but my March was somewhat close to the work I've been doing throughout the winter. I just looked at my last 28 days, added up the TSS, and devided it by 28. I put in the values for both CTL and ATL, and now my current CTL is 39.4.

    Thanks again,
    -Greg
     
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