Are we there yet?



Felt, Good post on genetics etc but just a little clarrifaction on contador and his time trialing. He's alway been a really good time trialist and was the Spanish TT champion many years ago. It was only with his lack luster form in this years daupine and tour was he struggling in the race of truth. Of course I say lack luster in comparison to his previous form. One could only wish to go that fast uphill.
 
Originally Posted by swampy1970 .

Felt,

Good post on genetics etc but just a little clarrifaction on contador and his time trialing. He's alway been a really good time trialist and was the Spanish TT champion many years ago.
Thanks for the clarification /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
 
bg->Sounds like you are having lots of fun and doing well. Keep posting race/group ride reports as it gets my blood going. To be honest that is some of the most fun posts for me. Makes me think that one day I can get back to it.

felt->You know I think you are awesome but I just think you are mixing up your examples and that is what kind of gets me going. When you talk about pros like you did initially in your discussion than fine genetics is big as we are playing with the top and the difference between the riders is so small everything makes a difference but to use the argument for your friends just does not hold up for me.

Just becuase they had a good ride after a winter off and you had trained regularly and struggled, there could be a million reasons like a bad day, not enough recovery, too much on your mind, etc. etc. etc. I think your genetics including my own with enough planning, focus on one sport, years riding and recovery can keep up and surpass most non-pro riders. It comes down to how much you are willing to give to acheive that goal.

-js
 
Originally Posted by Felt_Rider .

...Edit: I will stop babbling because I think I am starting to find what I was looking for if I can find the full document(s). Genes and human elite athletic performance
[SIZE= 12px]Genes and Training for Athletic Performance[/SIZE]
Just don't lose sight of what js is saying regarding the difference between 'elite' racers and the rest of us. Genetics definitely matter and differentiate top pros who have committed their lives to developing to their genetic potential but IME js is dead on with his observation that the level of success most part time amateurs reach has a lot more to do with how well they train and for how many years they continue to train well than it does the genetic hand they were dealt. Stick with it and it's very likely the rising star you mentioned will either have risen to the level where he's struggling just as hard as you are against other high level riders or will have moved on to other pursuits.

In the end it shouldn't really change anything for you. If he becomes a superstar then you can smile back to the days when he was up and coming and you saw what unformed talent looks like, if he quietly fades away you'll forget about him just as I've forgotten about a couple of dozen like him over the years that rose fast, got frustrated when racing became as hard for them as it is for the rest of us and hung up their bikes for other things.

As for the guys that seemingly don't train but can always go pretty hard, that happens a lot as well. Sometimes its because they come from running, or rowing or XC skiing or other endurance sports backgrounds and have a lot of years of aerobic training under their belts. Sometimes it's because they treat the weekend group rides as races and show up peaked for every one. Sure they go fast on a training ride in April but will they continue to go fast in July when you've been staying on plan and riding the group rides as part of an ongoing training load? Maybe it is just raw genetic advantage but again it doesn't really impact you. They're faster today, maybe tomorrow, maybe you'll chase them for as long as you'll ride but will you also be improving to your own potential at your own rate in the meantime?

Bottom line, there will always be other people that are faster, richer, more muscular, prettier....you name it, than us. The world's not fair. Acknowledging that is great, but fixating on that or getting frustrated by that only harms those that let it get them down. Work with what you've got and take it as far as you can. I expect you'll outlast many of these folks over time and you'll eventually outpace some of them. Those that are truly fast but don't actually train (assuming they're not 'closet training'), if they really aren't sufficiently motivated to ride their bikes on a regular basis they'll likely get bored of beating up on the club riders after a while and figure out other ways to spend their weekends.

-Dave
 
Thanks Dave and js for giving me some insight.

Great job!! Bgoetz in the race results
 
+1 for the number of years training...(not that Dave needs it from me)

Just a quick story, when I first started riding in CP with a team I was very frustrated at how poorly I was doing compared to other guys in the group rides and the one thing the coach of the group told me was it takes years. Do not expect miracles in a year. He said in his experience you need atleast 3 years of a steady diet of focus and training just on cycling just to be competitive and 5 years to really know what your potential truly is.

-js
 
Did 2 crits today, had to put it all out there to pick up a win on the 1st one, towards the end of the 2nd fatigue won out and I had to settle for a mid-pack finish (js-you can read about it in road cycling /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif). I ended up going to a local training ride after the races and doing another 40miles, went steady pace with the group, but with the wind and the fact that they are more geared towards recreational cycling, I ended up off of the front. Once I figured out my pace was not going to work, I took off and hit it pretty hard all of the way home. I can honestly say that I think I am more fatigued than I have been yet this year period, I feel completely drained!!
 
bgeotz, That is an impressive effort. I hope you can keep up with that type of load with two crits and a group ride in one day.
How are feeling today? Sore or suprisingly good?
 
I was looking at my PMC chart and saw I was at that point where I should be able to give a new FTP test a try. It seems for me once my CTL hits about >95 and as long as that 95 is made up of good threshold efforts than I do one short day of 4 x 5 min efforts at ~110% of ftp, total one hour session and than a complete day off (sunday) that I should be able to try for a new ftp. Staying off the bike Sunday was hard but was able to do stuff around the office.

I could tell by the way I woke up today that my sciatica was at a new low. The usual morning ramp up to full energy was not needed. I think part was cause the wife did not snore so had a great sleep!

Anyway got into the office and did a 25 minute ramp up till I hit 240 and just nailed it for one hour. I kept in mind pacing big time and just let the legs fall over, no extra energy loss. Made a bug difference! At about 45 minutes in though I thought I would be done so for 5 minutes I took my cadence up to above 100 to give the legs a bit of a change. The last 10 minutes were easy when I went back down to my 90 pace. I attached the file and a new ftp of 245



bg->Amazing stuff there man, I used to know a few guys who could do a couple crits in a day but that is nutty. How long were they? Any good pushing and shoving stories or were they more controlled? In your team are you considered the sprinter? I have found teams really do not work like teams sometimes.

-js

On a side note I really would love to take a nap right now!
 
Nicely done js.

I know this sounds crazy, but try a 20 minute full out effort tomorrow and just see what you can ride for 20 minutes on the day following a full hour. I've been very surprised to find that all of my best 20 minute efforts have happened the day after a full hour at or very near FTP. My legs are heavy while warming up that second day but I consistently slam out big efforts. I've had a couple of other riders try it with similar results. So if you're going to train tomorrow, you might try a full bore 20 minute effort after a short warmup, worst case it won't be in the cards and you drop back down to what you would have done for the day but you might be surprised.

-Dave
 
dave->I will give it a shot and make it a short ride, 1 hour or so. I will need to do it in the park and let my legs and not the CT set my watts. Nothing to loose by trying.

-js
 
I am a bit sore today, so I took the opportunity to take the day off and try to get my bike setup for a TT that I have on Thursday. I don't have a TT bike, so it will be some nicer aero bars and a seat post/seat swap to get me somewhat close to the guys with a TT bike.

js-I would consider myself a pretty decent sprinter, but I have not been at this long enough to know if it is my strength or not. It seems like both races that I won in a sprint, I just seemed to have the ability to dig deeper than any other time when heading to the line close to the front, I find myself going to a different place and pushing longer and harder than I could ever do in a training ride. There was some contact between myself and the guy who got 2nd, we actually lapped the main field and things got a bit chaotic for a moment, he tried to attack and we went shoulder to shoulder. We actually hit pretty hard, I am not sure how neither of us went down.
 
Originally Posted by bgoetz .... We actually hit pretty hard, I am not sure how neither of us went down....
You stayed up because neither of you over reacted or panicked.

Contact happens, in higher category races it often doesn't lead to troubles in lower category races it often turns into a pileup as either the folks making the contact panic and over react or the folks immediately behind them jam their brakes and swerve.

Nice job staying focused and avoiding a wreck.

-Dave
 
Awesome start to the season bg!!!! Those are the kind of stories I like to hear, where winter training translates into success on the road. Very cool.

My season has started out pretty well too. I trained all winter, went to spring training camp and right into a target race. I was concerned about having had limited hours on the road and no opportunities to get reacquainted with how it feels to ride in a race pack. But I managed a 3rd place finish in a big race. Since then, I've been on the podium every weekend!

I really couldn't have asked for a better start to the season . . . ok, I guess I could have actually won one of those races, but the season is long!

I am taking a couple weeks off racing to regroup mentally/physically and to start my outdoor training phase in earnest with the intention of peaking in June for a handful of important races.
 
cc/bg->It is nice to see the training during the winter does pay off with some dividends when the race season starts. For me getting back to my old numbers may be a reality I hope by next season. bg, sounds like you are much better than you lead us to believe as to loop the entire field, no matter the field is no easy task. Must have been intense when you guys went shoulder to shoulder. Just wondering were either of you guys upset and after the race did you guys talk?

dave->When I woke up today, the legs were heavy as you predicted and the back was achy. I kind of expected as honestly yesterday was just too good. I did go to the park though and did a warm up for 20 minutes and than tried to give my best 20 minute effort. I got caught in a couple groups which messed me up a bit but honestly the legs were not there. My best 20 minute was ~250 but I did do a new high on my 5 minute power at ~280. It was due to this young girl who I got caught behind with an older gent next to her. I decided to let me catch her wheel and I held it till we got to harlem hill and than I passed her. Problem was on the other side as at the bottom of the downhill there were cops and I did not expect it and almost rammed a group when they stopped at the light. After the stop light I was pretty much at the end of the 20 minute interval so turned off and went to work.

While not amazing I need to start working in one day a week of doing the park and just trying to catch some wheels. I will be blown off many wheels but that is ok. I need a season of that so next year I will be ready. Need to have that just ride day.

-js
 
js, Nice job on setting a new 5 minute record and not bad for 20. Bummer your training venue options are so limited. Seems you've got the choice between indoors on the trainer where many folks find their power drops or CP with variable terrain and forced traffic stops. I sure wonder what you'd see on a good steady stretch of unbroken road.

-Dave
 
dave->I heard from other that after 8pm the park is free. Just can not see fitting that into my schedule but I can try to start making sure I get to the park by ~530 or just try to pace myself according to the lights. As for nice stretches without too many variations I think that 25/25a south fork of LI may do the trick and I can do that on a weekend. 9W can work also but not as good as 25a to get a nice run with little variations.

I do think though doing CP is still needed as I am close and even if I have to stop occasionally I really need to grab some wheels hold on for dear life and than do some pulls. Funny thing being off the bike has made me more confident in going into the turns for some odd reason. I still though will make the CT my main focus this season as I still in the rebuild but the 280 did surprise me. I think I could have done 260 if the legs were not so heavy.

-js
 
So I had another flu/cold stint, and didn't train for 6 days. Yesterday was the first day I felt ok, but I was scared that I lost some form. To my surprise, I felt great, doing what started out as a low L3 2x20, and ended up with SST for the last 20 mins. I guess it can all vary as far as loosing form, and how quickly.

I'm hoping to get out on the road finally, maybe for my B-day this Thursday, if it ever stops raining.


-Greg
 

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