Are we there yet?



swampy1970

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daveryanwyoming said:
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I hear you, travel days suck and leave me exhausted even though I didn't really do anything.
 
Good example of the way the PMC and CTL only reflect training load and not overall life stress. Those little lines don't tell you how much harder your body is working to deal with injury or illness or extra work and family stress or poor sleep or travel days or anything else outside of your workout sessions. But they sure do a nice job of showing you how much the workouts are stressing you.
 
If it's any consolation, even professional cyclists have to deal with travel days, sitting in airports, signing autographs all day at trade shows and other stresses outside of training. But at least they don't have to get up on Monday morning and sit at a desk all day before doing their training...
 
-Dave
I sometimes wonder if the European pros clock up almost as many miles on planes as pilots, what with the tour down under, races in Asia, tour of California before gallivanting around Europe for most of the year. Stuck behind a desk and training - it could be worse, guys like roger devlaminck, hinault and lemond would all ride 6 hour classics and then tack on another 100 to 150kms extra for training prior to their goals - whether it was getting in the miles for the long classics like Roubaix or getting rid of the winter weight prior to the grand tours. How 'bout that for a day in the office before training? ;) ... And here's me with sore legs after a good 5 hours at the weekend. Lol.
 

thassman

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Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming .

That's definitely part of what the PMC and tracking CTL can show you but IME it's tied closer to things like CTL ramp rate and sustained negative TSB than it is to adjusting your FTP setting.


Hi Dave,

What is your experience in regards to sustained negative TSB.
I never tracked it before, but can see i have just had 20 days with a negative TSB, mostly doubble digit numbers. During the last 3 weeks i had a few AR days, but now I feel that i need to come up for air.

I feel that a TSB of eg. -20 lets me feels much more tired after many days of sustained negative TSB, than when just beginning to dig the training hole.

Is there any golden rules, for how long you should allow yourself to have negative TSB ?

ctl 74
ftp 290
77 kg

/Tommy
 

jsirabella

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swampy->Yeah I am sure they do not have the easy life and from what I have heard they do not exactly make crazy money doing it unless you are one of the elite. It is a lot like football and baseball where you have a few guys making insane monies and than many making just enough to survive. But I still feel just like any job when you know you are a pro cyclist you do gear your life to get to your true potential. I mean for me films, video are never really off my mind. When I am home I am working on it and when I am at the office I am working on it. For these guys it must be the same and I wonder what is their get away from the day in and day out. For me it is cycling, it must be the complete opposite also from what they do.

On a side note decided to do the park today as I want to get in now one day park, one day CT as I train. The park will be more of a just ride to see how well I am doing. In the end, eveything is pretty much in line as I did 240 max for the hour, 245 for 30 minutes and 260 for 20 so I believe my 245 ftp is in line. CP is definitely letting up as no cops at all today and the weather was great.

On a side note to try and make life a bit easier on the LB I was going to look into a brooks saddle. Trying to figure out which one. I hear the conquest, the champion with springs are amazing as I am more concerned with being able to stay in the saddle as long as possible, any recommendations as the extra weight I can loose through diet.

-js
 

swampy1970

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I think there's a minimum wage of around 40,000 Euro for the Pro Tour riders... I'm not sure if that's an official thing or a gentlemans agreement. Knowing the EU they'll allow the teams to pay the riders the equivalent wage in cucumbers - the straight ones (no curves allowed) of course ;)

A brooks saddle huh? Why? As much as I could maybe see using one if I was sat bolt upright looking at daisies, carrying 100lb in camping gear and panniers I never really saw the benefit of sticking a boat anchor on the bike for racing or fast riding purposes - especially one that adds to the "required maintenance" list. If there's nothing else that fits then maybe but otherwise...

I can heartily recommend the Specialized Toupe. I hear the Specialized Romin is very similar, a little more profiled on the top but I aint trying out another saddle since I've found one that works really well. Sucky thing is that it means I need to get another one for the other bike because the Fizik that was on there, that came with the bike, was giving me some grief.
 

jsirabella

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swampy->40,000 euros? Much better than I thought.

Honestly on the saddle side, I must admit I may feel a bit silly with a brooks saddle trying to do loops in CP but I have to put that behind me and do what it takes to stay as long as I can on the bike outdoors. When pushing it today in CP I started to feel the LBP as I hit 90 minutes. Nothing extreme but I can see that it can be a difference maker in that I feel more pain than I should. Less to do with muscles and more to do with nerve pain. I ride a cannondale alu bike right now and since I hope to do hotel touring again one day again so thought I should give the Brooks saddle a try.

But do not want to invest in a $200 saddle and find out it does nothing. I have 4 saddles here from old bikes people threw out. 3 are fizzik and they are suppose to be great but I find this cheapo forte tri seat really comfortable...go figure.

-js
 

swampy1970

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My local Specialized store has a policy of letting you try the saddle for a while if you had the BG Fit (aka you sit on the butt-o-meter). Of course if you bring it back and you've scraped all the side up and tightened the saddle clamp so tight that you left indentations of the saddle rails then they might have a problem giving you another saddle to "try" but all it took was a couple of 2 to 3 hour rides and realising that I never once thought about the saddle or where I was sitting. It's the same on all day rides. It looks as uncomfortable as can be but it's just awesome.

It's not just a case of finding a saddle... It's getting the saddle/shorts combo. Saddle, shorts and shoes - probably the most important bits of bike kit. If you have issues with any of those then it's never really going to be fun.

I'm paying for my act of laziness - couldn't be bothered taking the Fizik saddle off my training bike and after bumping up the training at the start of this current block I paid the price and I'm still paying for it. But it wasn't something that I couldn't fix myself with a sterilized needle, big band aid or two and some neosporin. ;) Still smarts a little...
 

gman0482

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True on the importance of BOTH, saddle and shorts combo. I have an 'ok' saddle now, but it's much better, or much worse depending on which bibs I put on. The chamois makes a difference.

-Greg
 

jsirabella

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Advice->I usually do not like riding a 4th day in a row as I find by Day 4 I will probably just do ok. The last three days my IF were .8, .9, .8, on the TSS side 90, 120, 110. I am rounding here to make it easier. But since I can not ride Friday, would you ride tomorrow or would you skip both days? My CTL is 90.

This time of the year, business starts really ramping up and have these issues with schedule conflicts.

-js
 

swampy1970

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Originally Posted by jsirabella .

Advice->I usually do not like riding a 4th day in a row as I find by Day 4 I will probably just do ok. The last three days my IF were .8, .9, .8, on the TSS side 90, 120, 110. I am rounding here to make it easier. But since I can not ride Friday, would you ride tomorrow or would you skip both days? My CTL is 90.

This time of the year, business starts really ramping up and have these issues with schedule conflicts.

-js

Sure, I'd ride. Give it your best effort.
 

daveryanwyoming

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I'd go by how you feel tomorrow morning. If you're feeling good then do a ride that targets a bit lower IF (say .7 or so) and a TSS of around 45 or so (about half your current CTL). Those days typically leave me feeling pretty good, help prop up CTL but don't wipe me out at the end of a training block. OTOH, if you wake up feeling awful or overly stressed then take the extra day off, you've got plenty of CTL in the bank so an extra rest day isn't a terrible idea once in a while if you're really tired.


On the saddle question, all good points above regarding chamois, saddle, sit bone width (143mm works for an awful lot of male riders), etc. Just keep in mind that most discussions on this topic are only concerned with comfort of your soft tissue contact points and general soreness and or numbness at the saddle itself. I'm sure you care about that as well, but your issue with herniated discs will almost certainly have more to do with 'how' you sit on the saddle and things like the tilt and fore and aft position of the saddle as well as the tilt of your pelvic girdle than what saddle you buy or what shorts you wear.

IME, lower back issues are aggravated by riders who sit square upright in their saddles and then bend forward with a sharp break in their lumbar region to lean forward to their bars. I've fitted quite a few folks over the years that rode that way in part because they didn't know better and in part because their saddle angle and setback (or lack thereof) made it most comfortable to sit square upright on the saddle and then bend over with their backs. Adjusting their saddles and their awareness of their pelvic tilt helped reduce lower back stress. Perhaps you're already doing all that as I know we talked about this subject a few years ago but if you do swap saddles remember to install the new saddle such that you can 'tilt' the top of your pelvic girdle forward (pull your hip joints back but your iliac crest forward such that you feel like you're sticking your butt out behind you when you ride).

I probably posted this link a while back, but I strongly agree with John Cobb's observations on saddle tilt and how it impacts pelvic tilt. It's counterintuitive but a slight saddle nose uptilt combined with awareness and perhaps some retraining on how you to comfortably sit on a saddle can dramatically reduce lower back strain. http://cobbcycling.com/positioning-videos.cfm

Maybe this is all old stuff for you, but if you're still struggling to find lower back comfort you might double check that it's not related to the tilt of your saddle and hips.

-Dave
 

jsirabella

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dave->Thanks for the videos. The one of the B style back really seems to fit my purposes. But there is an issue here of what is causing the discomfort. The pressure of the tail-bones on the seat vs. the bow in the back.

Meaning my PT guy (it took years but found a good one specializing in McKenzie technique) explained that ideally for folks with my issue you want you back to be a straight line. Now that does not mean straight (180 degrees) but you need to bend at the hips and not at the back to reach the handlebars. He illustrated this with me by using a yard stick ruler. He put it in the middle of my back and explained see how it touches the tip of your head and various other points till it reaches the end of your back side. If it does not do that than you are not in the best position and will experience discomfort as you are bowing your back to reach your handlebars.

Now based upon the video it seems he is shifting weight from the back of your body to the front of your body. This will raise you off the seat probably just enough so your back side is tilted up. I can see how this can work but I wonder if it also straightens your back out? The other thing is that he must have some amazing handlebar stem cause mine can not do what his does at all. I can on my road bikes adjust it by removing spacers but I pretty much have to take it off and turn it upside down to get that drop. I guess now they make one that is fully adjustable and no need for spacers?

If with the adjustment in the stem I also get the back to have a straighter line from head to backside than that would be ideal. With herniated disc, pressure from sitting is a major cause but posture can also bite you in the rear (excuse the pun). I have been trying to focus when on the bike to always bend at hips and keep the back straight.

Maybe tomorrow I can experiment a bit...hmm

-js
 

daveryanwyoming

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js,
Yes, rotating the pelvic girdle forward (or tipping the hip joints themselves as in your Greater Trochantors backwards) helps you keep your spine in a straighter line. That helps in several ways, it decreases the amount that you need to bend at each vertebrae which should really help in your case with herniated discs, it helps to reduce the impact of road shocks on your spine if your back is straight but angled forward instead of straight up and down where every bump gets transferred straight up your more vertical spine and for competitive cyclists it generally helps with aerodynamics.

In the linked videos Cobb stresses handlebar height for tipping the pelvis forward. That's definitely a big part of the equation as you'll definitely sit upright if you have high bars and a relatively short bar reach. But assuming you've got your bars reasonably low and long the other big part to make this approach comfortable is appropriate saddle tilt. He talks briefly about tilting the nose of the saddle UP by about a degree in the first video. Most cyclists balk at that notion assuming it'll be exactly the wrong thing to do for comfort but give it a shot along with a conscious effort to tilt your pelvis forward (hip joints and butt thrust backwards) you may be surprised. It's hard to explain why that works, but it does for a lot of folks as long as they pay attention to both the saddle uptilt and the rotation of their pelvis on the saddle. If you uptilt the saddle and continue to sit bolt upright it'll likely feel awful and if you rotate your pelvis but leave your saddle flat or with a slight downtilt as many folks do then you'll likely have trouble maintaining that forward rotation and flat back as you'll continue to rock backwards as soon as you stop thinking about it.

I'm pretty certain he's using an Oval Concepts A700 adjustable stem in those videos. They've got a wide range of angle adjustments and are easy to adjust quickly as opposed to say the Ritchey adjustable stem that has to be disassembled at the steering tube clamp to make angle adjustments. Performance sells a pretty decent and very inexpensive version under their Forte brand that is also convenient to adjust on the fly. The best adjustable stem is made by Look with it's double jointed design that lets you set a very wide range of effective angles and lengths but it's both heavy and expensive. I use one for TT fittings but in general most folks can figure out reach pretty easily so angle only adjustable stems are typically sufficient and both lighter and less expensive.

BTW, your experience with your PT and the yardstick is a very old school method for teaching folks to ride with proper posture. One coach I knew back in the day described how his coach (even further back in the day) had all his juniors ride around during training sessions with a piece of lathe board (basically an unfinished yardstick sized flat thin board) stuffed up the back of their jerseys. Ride with a flat back you'd never notice the board, forget to rock your hips and the board becomes very annoying. They'd do that until their on bike posture became very natural. Bike posture still gets some mention, just not as much. Friel describes it as 'spilling water out of your bowl', here's a blog entry discussing exactly this topic: http://www.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2007/09/road-bike-posture.html

-Dave
 

swampy1970

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Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming .


Performance sells a pretty decent and very inexpensive version under their Forte brand that is also convenient to adjust on the fly.


The best adjustable stem is made by Look with it's double jointed design that lets you set a very wide range of effective angles and lengths but it's both heavy and expensive. I use one for TT fittings but in general most folks can figure out reach pretty easily so angle only adjustable stems are typically sufficient and both lighter and less expensive.

-Dave

Ah... the mental image of your riding along on the time trial bike at 26mph, pulling out the allen wrench and attempting to adjust your stem whilst riding at threshold. :p

Hopefully the Look ergostems have improved over the years. When I got one back in the early 90's I was told to always use a torque wrench and that if the bolt always seemed to come loose overtime then relegate the stem to trainer use only. It turns out that the materials used in the side plates weren't good enough to stop the bolt from causing deformation of the threads overtime. More than a few people had faceplants on those. When mine finally died (after it was used soley on the trainer) I just drilled it out and used some honking big stainless nuts and bolts. Frankenstem.
 

jsirabella

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dave->I think you may be on to something. Too early to tell but all I did was tilt it backwards slightly and rode it home today. Definitely more comfortable initially but too early to tell as I need to play with it a bit more. Had plenty of leg clearance which surprised me also. My seat post is an old one from a Trek so not very adjustable in terms of tilt but it was really nice. No discomfort and felt like I was able to put out more power cause of the position.

Since I was doing that I decided to switch out my 42 and put in a never used 46 that I had laying around here. I have not had a chance to change the chain out so been beating the 42 into the ground. I am using my old triple crank on this bike and I have to admit I am terrible with maintenance. When I took off the 42, geez, it was bent pretty bad. Than I never check the air in the tires. Filled them up and with all the changes I never went up the hill by engineer gate that fast by myself even pre-issues, I was doing close to 23 which is amazing for me. I will definitely order the adjustable stem from Performance. I really wish we had a local Performance store as great prices and pretty good stuff. Always in a rush to get out the door and the simple things can make such a difference.

Thanks again Dave as you gave me alot to work with here and if it works out, I will be a happy camper.

swampy-> A friend told me he would never use a carbon stem as he had a friend coming down a hill on a TT bike and it broke and he went faceplant and broke an arm. Than his wife ended his riding days for good after that. I remember being told by a bike shop that I cam just in time to switch out my fork as he showed me the rust and said it was going to crack off pretty soon.

-js
 

bgoetz

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[FONT= 'Arial']Not sure what is happening with my training, but I feel like I need to reevaluate what I am doing and maybe make some changes. My legs have felt dead lately and looking back at my training I am really not to sure why. Knowing how I was feeling I took yesterday off and then had a club race today. Warming up for the race I felt good and expected a good result, but once the race started it was pure hell. Lactic acid hit my legs like a ton of bricks, when the group split mid race I found myself on the losing end of the deal. I made a hard effort to bridge up and my calf completely tied up. I am just really disappointed, with how the last week or so has gone, this is by far my worst race of the year to this point. [/FONT]
[FONT= 'Arial'] [/FONT]
[FONT= 'Arial']I have made a few changes in race preparation and my diet, in that I have not been taking that nearly as seriously since my next Cat race is not until mid-May. I have been drinking beer at least once a week and really have not focused on what I eat leading up to the race nearly as much, in fact last night I had a meaty, salty, Chicago style pizza and lots of it, so that could have something to do with it. Plus the last time I did any really hard sustained efforts was a week ago during our last club race, which could also have something to do with it.[/FONT]

[FONT= 'Arial'][/FONT]
[FONT= 'Arial']I am going to be putting in some long miles this weekend, a good portion of which will be solo, which sometimes is good as it gives me some time to myself. I think after this week I am going go get back to something more structured, as the majority of my training has been riding with friends, with no real focus on anything in particular. Overall I have been spending 12-15hrs a week in the sadle, including races, I don't think it is to much.... [/FONT]
 

CalicoCat

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Originally Posted by bgoetz .

[FONT= 'Arial']Not sure what is happening with my training, but I feel like I need to reevaluate what I am doing and maybe make some changes. My legs have felt dead lately and looking back at my training I am really not to sure why. Knowing how I was feeling I took yesterday off and then had a club race today. Warming up for the race I felt good and expected a good result, but once the race started it was pure hell. Lactic acid hit my legs like a ton of bricks, when the group split mid race I found myself on the losing end of the deal. I made a hard effort to bridge up and my calf completely tied up. I am just really disappointed, with how the last week or so has gone, this is by far my worst race of the year to this point. [/FONT]
[FONT= 'Arial'] [/FONT]
[FONT= 'Arial']I have made a few changes in race preparation and my diet, in that I have not been taking that nearly as seriously since my next Cat race is not until mid-May. I have been drinking beer at least once a week and really have not focused on what I eat leading up to the race nearly as much, in fact last night I had a meaty, salty, Chicago style pizza and lots of it, so that could have something to do with it. Plus the last time I did any really hard sustained efforts was a week ago during our last club race, which could also have something to do with it.[/FONT]

[FONT= 'Arial'][/FONT]
[FONT= 'Arial']I am going to be putting in some long miles this weekend, a good portion of which will be solo, which sometimes is good as it gives me some time to myself. I think after this week I am going go get back to something more structured, as the majority of my training has been riding with friends, with no real focus on anything in particular. Overall I have been spending 12-15hrs a week in the sadle, including races, I don't think it is to much.... [/FONT]
Sometimes the body (and the mind) just need some time off. I had a great off-season wrt training, and a great start to my racing season. Then, last week, my training was really suffering and my head was all over the place. I realized that I just couldn't keep the intensity up and needed a rest week. But additionally, I also realized that I am currently in a transition period in my season where early goal races are past and I need to focus on future goals and start training specifically for them (despite some horrible weather we have been having, and a ridiculous amount of life stress . . . ).

I would advise you to write down your goals, evaluate what your biggest challenges are going to be with respect to meeting those goals, and then prepare a realistic training plan that should get you to where you want to be. Sometimes just having a goal and a plan is enough to turn things around and get headed in the right direction.
 

gman0482

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I agree with CalicoCat. A short time off can help out physically and mentally.

Thanks for the vids Dave, I needed to watch those as well.

So once again, I'm off of the bike for 8 days now with my hip killing me. I had this problem on and off for years now, did the chiropractor thing before with not much help, and cortisone injection is not a solution either. I got a referral to go see a musculoskeletal specialist, so I hope it's nothing major.

Just as the weather is finally getting here, and my winter training was the best this year, something always gets in the way. What else is new ?? lol.

-Greg
 

bgoetz

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I think I am starting to get a handle on my future training strategies and it is going to include a bit more rest and spending some of my CTL to focus on some races. Went out and did 30 tempo miles tonight. Tomorrow I am doing 100 one way miles to my wife's parents place (she is already there via car), most of it will be solo, I am kind of excited to get some time to myself.

After reading through a thread on max speed I remembered an amazing fact from one of my more recent training rides in which the wind was so strong that on our return route I hit a sustained 40+ mph on a completely flat road, maxing out at 43mph. This was with a 52x12 and 43 was when I spun out, so I now know that I can hit 40+ before spinning out with the 12, LOL
 

jsirabella

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bgoetz->Based on Dave's comments on CTL and my own experience recently, I have found now to keep getting in good sessions I changed up from a 3 x 20 ~85% to a 2 x 20~95%. Basically it is giving me more recovery time so when I do hit the trainer I can hit it hard. Kind of goes back to my idea of "knowing when not to train" (recovery).

gman->I hate hearing this from people and sure you are the same but be careful. Hip pain is mean. It runs through the groin area and has a deep feeling. I hope this was diagnosed by an ortho and not chiro. I am not a big believer in chiros.

-js
 

swampy1970

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Originally Posted by gman0482 .

I agree with CalicoCat. A short time off can help out physically and mentally.

Thanks for the vids Dave, I needed to watch those as well.

So once again, I'm off of the bike for 8 days now with my hip killing me. I had this problem on and off for years now, did the chiropractor thing before with not much help, and cortisone injection is not a solution either. I got a referral to go see a musculoskeletal specialist, so I hope it's nothing major.

Just as the weather is finally getting here, and my winter training was the best this year, something always gets in the way. What else is new ?? lol.

-Greg
Gman,

Told ya those long cranks would do you in if you didn't adjust the saddle height :p

Joking aside, you have a PM with something that may help... Hip pain is never fun. It may help you to just go out and gently ride the bike, no force, no hard effort, just very easy pedalling for about 15 to 20 minutes.
 

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