Are we there yet?



Nice job CalicoCat !!

I also ended up doing a 20min FTP test last night (well maybe more like 20min L5), eventhough I didn't set out to do it at the start. It was my 2nd workout day (I do 2 on 1 off), and Thursday was my strong 2x30, so I wanted to do a simple 2x20. I was feeling pretty good all day, but did feel some fatigue, the good kind. For some reason I am always in a 100-103 rpm for the most part of all intervals, and I am so used to it now it's as if that's my preferred cadence. Anyways, on the 10th minute of my 1st 20min, my averages were 99rpm, and 195W. Now usually I do the 1st half of my intervals (20min or 30min) in 34/15, and on the 2nd half I'll get into 50/23 or 50/21. On the trainer the gearing is waay different than road.

Anyways, long story short, for some reason, on the last 10 minutes of the 20min I decided to go hard and see what I can average out. I ended up with 209W for the whole 20 mins, which is ~198 FTP, doing +/- 215W in the 2nd half with some big short bursts of ~230W here and there.

I keep thinking that if I actually set out to do the test from the start, I would've put in a much harder effort into the 1st 10 minutes, resulting in a much higher overall 20 min average. Sometime this week I will actually prepare and do it properly.

So I am very happy with the result, considering that last year my winter FTP was 212W, I know I can hit that mark.
 
Originally Posted by gman0482 .

Nice job CalicoCat !!

I also ended up doing a 20min FTP test last night (well maybe more like 20min L5), eventhough I didn't set out to do it at the start. It was my 2nd workout day (I do 2 on 1 off), and Thursday was my strong 2x30, so I wanted to do a simple 2x20. I was feeling pretty good all day, but did feel some fatigue, the good kind. For some reason I am always in a 100-103 rpm for the most part of all intervals, and I am so used to it now it's as if that's my preferred cadence. Anyways, on the 10th minute of my 1st 20min, my averages were 99rpm, and 195W. Now usually I do the 1st half of my intervals (20min or 30min) in 34/15, and on the 2nd half I'll get into 50/23 or 50/21. On the trainer the gearing is waay different than road.

Anyways, long story short, for some reason, on the last 10 minutes of the 20min I decided to go hard and see what I can average out. I ended up with 209W for the whole 20 mins, which is ~198 FTP, doing +/- 215W in the 2nd half with some big short bursts of ~230W here and there.

I keep thinking that if I actually set out to do the test from the start, I would've put in a much harder effort into the 1st 10 minutes, resulting in a much higher overall 20 min average. Sometime this week I will actually prepare and do it properly.

So I am very happy with the result, considering that last year my winter FTP was 212W, I know I can hit that mark.

Thanks G! And good job to you too! It is a great feeling to put out a good effort, isn't is? And it sounds like you paced your 20min effort well which is definitely key to putting up a good number.
 
Originally Posted by CalicoCat .

Thanks G! And good job to you too! It is a great feeling to put out a good effort, isn't is? And it sounds like you paced your 20min effort well which is definitely key to putting up a good number.

Yea it's awesome. I was prepared for a somewhat longer regroup from my month off a while back, but it feels like the break gave me so much more enthusiasm and energy. I'm starting to feel like I did during the season. Today I took my day off with a nice 'tired' feeling in my legs. You know that feeling right ? When your legs are not hurting or sore, but just lazy from the efforts you put in the day before. Awesome.

Next week I'm definitely preparing a solid 20 min test with a ramp-up/warm-up period before it. I'm thinking that I should be able to average above what I did yesterday, since on the 1st half I was only around L4 area. I'll try to do something in style of HOP for the test, with some short surges and gear shifts throughout the 20 mins.
 
Hey guys,

been really enjoying reading the posts in here and have learned a lot. Just a quick question, i got on to the idea of doing 20min L4 intervals and went and did 3x20min yesterday with 5min recovery. I felt good and pushed hard in the last effort. don't have a power meter though so no idea whether it went up or down over the efforts.

I just noticed a lot of talk of 2x20s here, was wondering whether there's thoughts on why do 2x20s not 3x20s? Is it about holding the high intensity in the efforts?

Also, what are peoples thoughts on structuring a long ride? I have some people saying to me do long rides at 65%, which seems easy, others like joe friel say do zones 1-3. Does anyone do long rides in L2 and mix in some blocks of efforts in L3, L4? What's the thoughts on this?
 
Originally Posted by gman0482 . Today I took my day off with a nice 'tired' feeling in my legs. You know that feeling right ? When your legs are not hurting or sore, but just lazy from the efforts you put in the day before. Awesome.
Next week I'm definitely preparing a solid 20 min test with a ramp-up/warm-up period before it. I'm thinking that I should be able to average above what I did yesterday, since on the 1st half I was only around L4 area. I'll try to do something in style of HOP for the test, with some short surges and gear shifts throughout the 20 mins.

Oh yeah, I am familiar with that feeling!!!! Good luck on your test next week. A good warm-up will help you a lot. I'd suggest warming up for at least 20 min and really trying to get the heart-rate up either with some high cadence "intervals" or a progressive warmup that gets up to at least your previously tested threshold.


Originally Posted by stowy .

Hey guys,

been really enjoying reading the posts in here and have learned a lot. Just a quick question, i got on to the idea of doing 20min L4 intervals and went and did 3x20min yesterday with 5min recovery. I felt good and pushed hard in the last effort. don't have a power meter though so no idea whether it went up or down over the efforts.

I just noticed a lot of talk of 2x20s here, was wondering whether there's thoughts on why do 2x20s not 3x20s? Is it about holding the high intensity in the efforts?

Also, what are peoples thoughts on structuring a long ride? I have some people saying to me do long rides at 65%, which seems easy, others like joe friel say do zones 1-3. Does anyone do long rides in L2 and mix in some blocks of efforts in L3, L4? What's the thoughts on this?
Many people do 3x20s. I personally don't because I find it difficult to get the 3rd on in at the prescribed intensity, and if I have to dial it down a notch then I'm "not doing the right workout."

Also, I don't always train with power either, and when I don't, I try to do my intervals on a circuit so I can be sure not to let speed drop from one effort to the next. Can't compare day to day because wind changes too much, but during a given workout, it is pretty easy to keep conditions constant enough to know that each effort was the same.


Long rides: My teammates and I have been debating this a bit (ok, a lot) recently. They prefer to adhere to the 65% of FTP rule. However, I prefer to go a little harder in my long rides, and average more in the 80% range. My feeling is that this time of year my overall training volume is low, so I am not going to overtrain, my racing season hasn't started so I can afford to break myself down a bit, when training with limited hours (and on a trainer) I want every minute to count for something, and I find 3hrs on the trainer at 65% to be not giving me enough benefit for the time expenditure. At 80%, for 3+hrs, I feel like I am improving my LT, training my body to burn fuel efficiently, and training myself to suffer a bit! I would be curious for you guys to weigh in on this debate.
 
I just noticed a lot of talk of 2x20s here, was wondering whether there's thoughts on why do 2x20s not 3x20s? Is it about holding the high intensity in the efforts?

Honestly I really do not understand the 2x20 as the rides for me would be very short as I would be done in a little over an hour. I would think that you need to put in atleast 90~120 minutes on the bike to see the changes. Based upon my experience even with my issues I have found the 3x20 @ 85% of FTP or higher to be the real sweet spot. Honestly in the end I try for any combination during the workout as long as I am getting in 60 minutes total. If for some reason I can not than I would stop riding that day.

I have made my current gains using this strategy. I will do an L3 today but than I have to put in 2-3 hours or not worth it. Do not always have 3 hours or more time to do that. This is just based upon my current experiences.

-js
 
Originally Posted by jsirabella .



Quote: I just noticed a lot of talk of 2x20s here, was wondering whether there's thoughts on why do 2x20s not 3x20s? Is it about holding the high intensity in the efforts?

Honestly I really do not understand the 2x20 as the rides for me would be very short as I would be done in a little over an hour. I would think that you need to put in atleast 90~120 minutes on the bike to see the changes. Based upon my experience even with my issues I have found the 3x20 @ 85% of FTP or higher to be the real sweet spot. Honestly in the end I try for any combination during the workout as long as I am getting in 60 minutes total. If for some reason I can not than I would stop riding that day.

I have made my current gains using this strategy. I will do an L3 today but than I have to put in 2-3 hours or not worth it. Do not always have 3 hours or more time to do that. This is just based upon my current experiences.

-js



JS- To each is their own, but 2x20's are definitely not a waste of time for me. I usually use those as a recovery, not lesser in intensity but in duration, likely after a normal day of 2x30, 3x20 or 1x60. Sometimes I'll use the 2x20 as a harder intensity as well, like the other day. FWIW, 2x20's are listed in many published and respected books and articles, along with being backed up by some experienced riders/coaches, so I don't really dismiss them.

Sure I agree with you that an hour or more is more beneficial, but also 2x20's are not a waste of time. Remember that time on the trainer is greater/more beneficial than that same time on the road.

To be clear, we are talknig ONLY about indoor trainer work, correct ? Not about regular road training rides.
 
gman->If you get benefit from them ofcourse continue in your program but I respectfully disagree. To me a recovery day means recovery which to me means rest except for the 30 minutes of stretching and some LB exercises I do cause I have to. Before my issues I did lots of strength training in between my cycling and even did cycling at nights after doing my cycling in the morning. The end result was not that stellar. I did believe my ftp was 260 watts which based on a 20 minute effort but never did a full hour. I was always tired alot.

I used to do 220~240 forever but that was about it and since my best real hour was ~250 I would say my watts/kg was about 3 since I weighed about 180. Now I weigh 167 dropped all the other stuff and only do 2 hours a day and I am already at 3.07. I believe just stick with what got you there and right now that is 3 x 20, 2 hours total @85% or better of ftp. I did post earlier that I was going to do 3 hours instead I did 3 x 20 at ~210. Tomorrow I am off.

My biggest mistakes from the past was overestimating my FTP. I do not believe in this 20 minute test. DO THE FULL HOUR. Next I would say rest more (ride less) but when you do ride make sure it is the program as defined. If you do not hit your numbers stop and come back to fight another day.

As far as outdoors vs. indoors, I have seen no difference in the numbers I could hold outdoors vs. indoors. The only difference is that it is much more difficult outdoors to stay at a very steady wattage but with some practice and always riding the same course I was able to pretty much get that down.

-js
 
Originally Posted by jsirabella .


As far as outdoors vs. indoors, I have seen no difference in the numbers I could hold outdoors vs. indoors. The only difference is that it is much more difficult outdoors to stay at a very steady wattage but with some practice and always riding the same course I was able to pretty much get that down.

-js

What I was referring to were not the power #'s, but rather the time on the trainer is greater than the time on the road. Mainly because of the constant and controlled resistance, no coasting, no hills, no break at all. What I mean is if you spend 45 mins on the trainer, it's like spending 1 hour on the road, and that's taken from Carmichaels book.

Again, to each their own, and what works for one doesn't have to work for the other. I do agree with you that 60+ min is more beneficial, but disagree that 2x20 is without ANY benefits. I also didn't mean that 2x20's was my normal recovery, but that I use them secondarily, aside from my main 1-hour workouts. I used to do them and only them when I started out though.
 
gman->I agree that given the nature of the trainer as SOT would say it is like riding with the brakes on so you definitely get a more focused workout on the trainer. I saw in another thread the usual argument came up about group rides vs. trainer. Even though I do believe you can try to make sure those outdoor rides come closer to indoor rides, there is no substitute for the trainer. But honestly I have seen many who do well on the trainer but terrible in groups (as I raise my hand). I believe it comes down to all those variables Dave posted. It is really hard to find folks with the same goal, keep the egos in check and riders of the same caliber.

I believe while studies are good you have to adapt those finding to your own personal goals/make up. Just cause the 3x20 may work for me, it may not work for you. We have to play with it just like swampy with his PCs. Hey if it works for him, more power to him (bad pun intended). Ofcourse we will all hit that brick wall when the workout we are doing will not get us the results we want. I though was really impressed how Dave posted those 325 numbers from starting his quest in 2006, it seems that the "keeping at it" does work. How many of us can do that as long as Dave, that is another story. Can not argue with those numbers.

-js
 
Js, you are improving very well with the structure you are on. I can't speak for gman, but mine comes down to time limitations during the week that limits me to 2x20s. I am trying to stretch it out to 2x30's, but even last week I tried this and was late getting into work. Not a good thing when managers are looking to cut jobs.

Calico, I can't imagine 3 hours on the trainer. I bet you are tired.
 
Originally Posted by Felt_Rider .

Calico, I can't imagine 3 hours on the trainer. I bet you are tired.
3hr rides are scheduled into each week. I am spending 10hrs/week on the trainer. 3hr rides are my long days, and sure, they are tiring, but, for better or worse, I'm used to it.
 
Originally Posted by CalicoCat .


3hr rides are scheduled into each week. I am spending 10hrs/week on the trainer. 3hr rides are my long days, and sure, they are tiring, but, for better or worse, I'm used to it.
I suppose in Chicago there is not much choice for this time of the year. The friend I was riding with on Saturday was asking me about how I train and I mentioned to him that I find the trainer the absolute best place because it is so consistent. Our terrain is rolling hills and it is very difficult to keep a constant pace. I do well to end with a VI of 1.35. The rails to trails path I use on Sunday is very flat and I can keep a steady pace, but there are still intersections and other obstacles like walkers, joggers and cyclists that I have to work around.

I had a close to a 3 hour ride on Saturday and reserved a little so that I could do my 2x60's on Sunday. I just try to keep near the sweet spot for that duration and did well on the first interval, but I must of had a tail wind on the return because my normal power was much lower and my speed a bit higher. I could not sense it going out, but on the return it was really easy cruising coming back. I have to admit that I did not feel like spinning faster to try to increase my wattage. I suppose I was being lazy and cold.

For the 2x60's I would have liked more time in L4. Oh well I was happy that I did not end up with much time below L3.

Level Minutes TSS
1 0.29 0.00
2 0.00 0.00
3 104.81 111.55
4 12.91 18.00

5 0.00 0.00
6 0.00 0.00
7 0.34 1.13
 
felt->None of us are making a living at this so you do not want this to affect your job. I can understand that. Given I know your routine is similar to mine with waking up at like 5am to get some time I am amazed we can still walk by the end of the day. Nice numbers you posted up there. For me my VI is always hanging around that .8~1 right now so I am happy. Actually I am more than happy as I see this as a type of rehab. Nice to have off today and the body feels pretty good. Now to get the numbers up I just need my OL to keep upsetting me and find more movies with Kelly Brook or like Piranha. :)

CC->I used to really look forward to those 3 hour rides on the trainer before the issues as I could pop on the movies and do a nice L3 pace. I may try it again soon enough just to see how the LB holds up. May be a better test of where I am. Sorry bout the bears yesterday but the jets were no better. Man it sooo soooo cold here today. My face was about to freeze off this morning.

-js
 
Originally Posted by Felt_Rider .

I suppose in Chicago there is not much choice for this time of the year. The friend I was riding with on Saturday was asking me about how I train and I mentioned to him that I find the trainer the absolute best place because it is so consistent. Our terrain is rolling hills and it is very difficult to keep a constant pace. I do well to end with a VI of 1.35. The rails to trails path I use on Sunday is very flat and I can keep a steady pace, but there are still intersections and other obstacles like walkers, joggers and cyclists that I have to work around.
I agree that intervals on the trainer are much better/consistent than on the road, because on the trainer there is control of everything - cadence, power, recovery time, etc. On the road with wind, changing grade, traffic lights, cars, etc in interval may be cut short, or recovery time extended. And like you pointed out, sometimes a tail-wind makes speed on an interval so darn fast that it isn't actually safe for the road conditions!!!! Also, when traveling at speed, it isn't very safe to get totally crossed eyed due to oxygen debt, but on the trainer, going nowhere, I can go completely into the red, and even shut my eyes at the ends of intervals to focus on finishing despite the pain without putting myself in danger!

That being said, I can't wait until Spring when I will no long be slave to the trainer and instead free to ride outdoors, breath fresh air, feel the wind in my face, and contend with all the variables (and hazards) out there.




Originally Posted by jsirabella .
CC->I used to really look forward to those 3 hour rides on the trainer before the issues as I could pop on the movies and do a nice L3 pace. I may try it again soon enough just to see how the LB holds up. May be a better test of where I am. Sorry bout the bears yesterday but the jets were no better. Man it sooo soooo cold here today. My face was about to freeze off this morning.

Thanks for the condolences. . . Not a good game . . .

I'm glad I'm not the only one out there who enjoys those 3hr trainer rides! I was starting to think I must be crazy. I definitely put a movie in, and ride with friends so that there is some mutual motivation, and I focus on getting some solid work in during those 3hrs. Ultimately, those 3hrs pass reasonably quickly.
 
I posted on my blog a couple years ago that memories of training for an event, whether it be competition or recreational, have often times been the best part of the journey.

Have you ever trained hard for something and even done well, but at the end of the day it just seemed so anti-climatic?
When I used to compete and win that was how it felt. The event day comes and goes like a flash and it almost seemed disappointing in a way.

But memories of the amount of blood, sweat and tears (effort) over the weeks and months of preparation are what seem to stick around longer. I could look back and appreciate the hard work that was put in and the sacrifices made. That is the one thing I do like about training with a group. When it is over we reflect on the days where maybe a handful of us were out training in the sleet or rain or faced other hardships. It is the journey going toward the event that makes the best of the memories and of course the same for training solo. Of course if you are competing and winning that ain't so bad either.

As the thread title says, "Are we there yet?"
I don't race, but I am excited that I have 13 weeks to get ready for an event that I treat personally like a race. Each year I try to improve my ride stats at this event.
I am a long way from there, but I am excited that the journey has started and hopefully a lot of good training memories between here and there.
 
Originally Posted by Felt_Rider .

Have you ever trained hard for something and even done well, but at the end of the day it just seemed so anti-climatic?
When I used to compete and win that was how it felt. The event day comes and goes like a flash and it almost seemed disappointing in a way.

But memories of the amount of blood, sweat and tears (effort) over the weeks and months of preparation are what seem to stick around longer. I could look back and appreciate the hard work that was put in and the sacrifices made. That is the one thing I do like about training with a group. When it is over we reflect on the days where maybe a handful of us were out training in the sleet or rain or faced other hardships. It is the journey going toward the event that makes the best of the memories and of course the same for training solo. Of course if you are competing and winning that ain't so bad either.
Everyday I go through this anti-climatic feeling, I get up at 5am so I can get on a bike, kill myself and than I download the data just to see another data point in WKO+. I take pride in my tenacity to keep going and now the rehab issue makes the daily rides even sweeter but it is anti-climatic. Even my recent 230 ride and finally seeing that yellow bar going above 3 made me smile but there was no ticker take parade or crowds yelling.

In the end it is all about the journey. We need goals but as you put very well and I have experienced many times over it is all about the journey. Ofcourse we will look back to it with rose colored glasses but it will be the stuff of many stories.

-js
 
Originally Posted by Felt_Rider .

I posted on my blog a couple years ago that memories of training for an event, whether it be competition or recreational, have often times been the best part of the journey.

Have you ever trained hard for something and even done well, but at the end of the day it just seemed so anti-climatic?
When I used to compete and win that was how it felt. The event day comes and goes like a flash and it almost seemed disappointing in a way.

But memories of the amount of blood, sweat and tears (effort) over the weeks and months of preparation are what seem to stick around longer. I could look back and appreciate the hard work that was put in and the sacrifices made. That is the one thing I do like about training with a group. When it is over we reflect on the days where maybe a handful of us were out training in the sleet or rain or faced other hardships. It is the journey going toward the event that makes the best of the memories and of course the same for training solo. Of course if you are competing and winning that ain't so bad either.

As the thread title says, "Are we there yet?"
I don't race, but I am excited that I have 13 weeks to get ready for an event that I treat personally like a race. Each year I try to improve my ride stats at this event.
I am a long way from there, but I am excited that the journey has started and hopefully a lot of good training memories between here and there.
Very well said Felt. It is about the journey. I have a coach who tells me that if racing isn't hard, then it isn't fun. When it's hard, your have to train a little harder, and push yourself that much farther. Then a win is just icing on the cake - the proof on paper that you worked hard enough to get yourself to that next level. But getting there is a process, and often an emotional roller-coaster. Some days we are super motivated, other days we question why we do this to ourselves. Some weeks our training is consistent, only to be followed by a week where life gets in the way and training goes by the wayside and we need to regroup and kick ourselves in the butt again. It is hard. And it is winter, so the hardest part of the training year for most. But from what I can tell, everyone is doing really well!!! I am proud of all of us!!!! And when it get's hard, just remind yourself that that is half the fun :)
 

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